England's Courses in Selected Rankings

[Sean_A]

Now that Links100 has been around awhile and the fluxuations of courses radically moving up or down are largely resolved, it is interesting to compare the GCA list against the Links list for English courses.  A few quick observations:

1. It’s somewhat surprising that for the most part there is agreement as to the top 16 courses.  

2. Only Woking separates the two lists.  GCA places Woking top 16 while Links chooses West Sussex.  

3. With 8 more courses listed in the World top 200, I find it very interesting that GCA seems to hold English courses in higher regard than   Links do.  

4. GCA’s relative ranking score seems to me to be much more reflective of reality.  Meaning, Sandwich, even though rated 30 in the world is about 1.5 points astray from #1 CPC.   Links has Sandwich nearly 2.5 points adrift from #1 CPC.  The trend continues throughout the comparison.  I am very suspicious when raters come up with such differences in quality when talking about the top courses in the world.  

5. When I look at the two lists the only courses I think are obvious omissions are Formby and Worlington.  For me, the two obvious courses to   swap out are Lytham and Woodhall.

6. I asked this question before and it seemed to come down to aesthetics, but what the heck is going on with Deal not cracking the top 10 (let alone what should be easily top 5) on either list?  

7. I continue to be very impressed with the GCA.com rankings. I wonder if anybody with skills is willing to update this list?  

Any thoughts about the two lists?

LINKS 100                                    GCA.COM UNOFFICIAL
30. Sandwich  6.55                         30. Sandwich  8.37
33. Sunny Old  6.42                         32. Sunny Old  8.32
40. Birkdale  6.26                                 39. Georges Hill  8.15
44. Woodhall Spa 6.06                         42. Swinley  8
48. Rye  5.86                            43. Rye  8
53. Lytham  5.72                                 45. St Enodoc  8
58. Georges Hill  5.6                         50. Woodhall Spa 7.92
62. Swinley  5.54                                 51. Birkdale  7.91
65. Ganton  5.5                            68. WHO  7.71
72. Sunny New  5.35                         71. Ganton  7.68
78. WHO  5.21                            85. Lytham  7.55
85. Hoylake  5.13                                 86. Woking  7.53
93. St Enodoc  5.05                         88. Sunny New  7.52
117. Deal  4.73                            91. Hoylake  7.49
141. Brancaster  4.45                         96. Brancaster  7.42
149. West Sussex  4.39                         107. Deal  7.34
                                       116. Silloth  7.27
                                       129. Notts  7.17
                                       139. West Sussex  7.09
                                       141. Addington  7.08
                                       158. Alwoodley  6.96
                                       160. Berkshire Red  6.95
                                       172. WHN  6.86
                                       186. Berkshire Blue  6.76

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sean do you not think Burnham and Berrow belongs on the list?

Agree re Formby and Worlington.




I still struggle with any list that mixes up inland courses with Links.

[Jim Nugent]

Sean, IIRC Golf Magazine and GCA.com also agree pretty closely on the top 20 in the world, even if the order is a bit different.  

[Sean_A]

Spangles

I struggle to find a place for B&B in England's the top 16 for a rankings list; maybe it would make a top 20 for me, but it would be close.  I do think B&B just pips Brancaster (generally a bit over-rated), but Saunton East is the next course not mentioned I would look to include. That said, I wouldn't say swapping Saunton for Brancaster is an obvious thing to do.  All three are about dead even in quality, just below greatness IMO.  I prefer Saunton's mix of holes a bit better (especially the short 4s) and its routing is more interesting than the other two, so it would get my nod over the other two.  Brancaster for me is 3rd of the three because there are an awful lot of flat lies and there are too many fake doglegs heading toward the sea (meaning getting green sites on the dune near the beach is over-done).  This is an issue with the site shape and size that really can't be helped, but I don't find it endearing or clever.  

Which course would you get rid of in favour of B&B?  

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Brancaster and Rye score well because they are eccentric. Rye is massively over scored on many rankings - it has 4 of 5 very good par 3s (2,5,7 & 14), 6 of 12 par 4s from the top draw (4,6,9,12,15 & 18) 5 of 12 ok par 4s (3,8,10,13 & 16) that leaves 1, 11 and 17 one of which wouldn't preclude a world top 100 but all three??

If bunkering were the be all and end all then Woodhall Spa is world top 10, other than that it's a very good course but not great especially as the round progresses.

[Tom_Doak]

Is everyone who slags Rye and it's ranking a jealous member of Deal?

Think about match play another way ... If you were going to make up a course with holes from the two, which course would you use the most holes from?

[Mark Chaplin]

Tom I play Rye two or three times a year and enjoy my visits, no jealousy other than the quality of the food. The members accept a substantial loss on catering each year to have great food everyday.  Rye has some standout quirky holes such as 4, 6 & 15 but too many ordinary holes for a great course. IMO that's fact not jealousy.

Deal has limitations due to the shape of the plot and lack of views but has 3 or 4 outstanding greensites (3, 6, 12 & 16) blind (3, 5 & 15) and semi blind (2, 6, 16 & 17) approaches and some very interesting putting greens (1, 3, 6, 12, 15, 16 & 17). We may not be top 100 material or a future Open venue - that's Princes - but Deal is a course a lover of bump and run golf will never tire of.

[Sean_A]

Is everyone who slags Rye and it's ranking a jealous member of Deal?

Think about match play another way ... If you were going to make up a course with holes from the two, which course would you use the most holes from?

I disagree with Chappers Take on Rye's 1, 11 & 17.  None of these are remotely poor holes.  For instance, Rye's 2nd is every bit as good Deal's 5th.  Rye's 17th is a good differentiating par 3.  11 is ugly, but a good hole and one I would choose among the top 15 holes of the two courses I would want.  It has the element of being different and that is worth a lot in my book.

Interesting way to look at a comparison. When I think of the two courses my first thought is I want

Rye's 4 (long 4), 5 (3), 6 (long 4), 7 (3) & 16 (long 4)

Deal's  6 (short 4), 10 (short to medium 4), 15 (long 4), 16 (5) & 17 (short to medium 4).  

That 10 holes, 5 each.  Looking at the configuration for the second choices I need more par 3s.  

Rye's 2

Deal's 4

Thats 12 holes, 6 each

Looking at what I have I think I need another par 5 and more short to medium  par 4s.  

Rye's 9 & 11

Deal's 3 (5)

Thats 15 holes; 8 for Rye and 7 for Deal

For the next two I want to choose holes which I think are sneaky good or unusual.  

Rye's 13 (long 4)

Deal 7  (short to medium 4)

The last choice is really a toss-up between Rye's 18 and Deal's 2.  Since I prefer the site of Rye's 18 (long 4) it gets.  

That makes it

RYE: 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16 & 18.

DEAL: 3, 4, 6, 7, 10, 15, 16 & 17.

This process is not quite satisifying though because it does leave out the huge ingredient of how a course flows.  Both have issues in this regard.  Deal because of the out n' back routing with the hammering back 9 and Rye with a few holes which are jarring on the eye and a lack of a compelling par 5.    

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean obviously I never actually said poor holes, just not up to scratch. I've played 11 maybe 25 times and still don't know the line. IMO 11 is the failing of a good course, however it is also the saviour of the club.

[Sean_A]

Sean obviously I never actually said poor holes, just not up to scratch. I've played 11 maybe 25 times and still don't know the line. IMO 11 is the failing of a good course, however it is also the saviour of the club.

Chappers

Because you can't figure out the line for #11 is not a good argument as to the "not up to scratch" quality of the hole.  In fact....you are digging a hole for yourself - deeper than right of that fairway  .  In conception, the tee shot is of the same ilk as Deal's 6th - so I hope that isn't the problem with the hole.  My beef isn't the hole, its the backdrop.  #11 is a good Cape tee shot which flat bellies can take on all the way. The green too is quite clever.  

Your take on #11 shows more than anything that design quality is much more subjective then objective.  

Ciao      

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean 11 was there long before the lake so it wasn't designed like that.

[Sean_A]

Sean 11 was there long before the lake so it wasn't designed like that.

I realize the water is relatively new.  What is your point?

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

This process is not quite satisifying though because it does leave out the huge ingredient of how a course flows.  Both have issues in this regard.  Deal because of the out n' back routing with the hammering back 9 and Rye with a few holes which are jarring on the eye and a lack of a compelling par 5.

Sean,

I actually consider that straight-in stretch from 12-18 (with a slight twist back to the left on the Par 3) to be as much a feature as a problem with Deal's routing. In my limited experience (about 10 rounds on 7 days across 3 separate visits) the wind DOES vary and in fact I would not say it has been directly into my face even a majority of the time.

I rather enjoy having a closing stretch that gets established in ones mind as a brutal closing slog then playing it on a calm day or a day when the breeze is reversed and feeling like you're getting away with something.

To use a favorite phrase of yours, I have a lot of time for the classic out-and-back routing that's typically downwind-then-upwind. And there are two Par 3's (one in the middle of the round, one a bit later) that turn back to face more or less toward the seafront.

Yep, except for the slightly awkward opener I can't find fault with Deal's routing at all.

[Sean_A]

Brent

To each is own.  Where wind is concerned, I think and an out n' back routing is about as dull as can be.  This is where Muirfield trumps just about every other links by a country mile.  At Burnham we have the same prevailing wind as Deal, down off the left going out and in off the right going home.  While that prevailing wind has not been overly predictable, what is very predictable is if the wind comes from the opposite direction it worse than normal .  Where Deal makes up loads of ground and more on the Muirfield's is with ideal golfing terrain - it doesn't really come any better and thats why I think Deal is a shoe in top 5 in England and probably GB&I as well. Same can be said for TOC for its place in British golf.  Burnham to a lesser degree and that is why I don't think its a great course and struggles in my mind for a top 20 spot in England.  To me, if used well, the terrain is more important than the wind routing and thats why I think Deal is a better and more interesting course than Muirfield.  Muirfield is forced to rely on 150 bunkers for interest and that to be honest,  doesn't generally interest me.

Ciao  

[Brent Hutto]

Now see, there you go again making me kick myself for not getting 'round to Burnham yet.