The best rough I’ve ever seen

[Ben Sims]

This conversation comes up from time to time. Theres a course I played this summer in Scotland that has perhaps the best rough and native areas I’ve ever seen. Ballyneal tends to cover its competition in my mind in part because of your ability to find your ball and play it, even if it’s really hard to properly judge how it’ll come out of the various lies you find off the fairway. Are there any courses you’ve played where the rough and native areas were notable for ease of locating balls while also being somewhat challenging to recover?

[Michael Felton]

This conversation comes up from time to time. Theres a course I played this summer in Scotland that has perhaps the best rough and native areas I’ve ever seen. Ballyneal tends to cover its competition in my mind in part because of your ability to find your ball and play it, even if it’s really hard to properly judge how it’ll come out of the various lies you find off the fairway. Are there any courses you’ve played where the rough and native areas were notable for ease of locating balls while also being somewhat challenging to recover?

Best example of this I can think of was at Notts (Hollinwell). This is going back a pretty long way, but I played in the British Universities there in 1996. The fescue was 18-24 inches long and horrible to get out of, but it didn't have that thick stuff at the bottom you frequently get with fescue, so it was hard to lose your ball. You'd always find it, but it was tough.

[Tom_Doak]

This conversation comes up from time to time. Theres a course I played this summer in Scotland that has perhaps the best rough and native areas I’ve ever seen. Ballyneal tends to cover its competition in my mind in part because of your ability to find your ball and play it, even if it’s really hard to properly judge how it’ll come out of the various lies you find off the fairway. Are there any courses you’ve played where the rough and native areas were notable for ease of locating balls while also being somewhat challenging to recover?

Some of the best rough is at the smaller courses with no budget to manage it . . . in such places the foot traffic helps to manage it.  If you hit the ball into a popular spot, the grass will be thinner and you're more likely to find it.  If you hit one way wide left into the hay, it's probably gone.  [Also . . . if you hit it a lot further than the normal folk, you'd better be straighter.]


Darwin would have liked this theory.  Charles, not Bernard.

[Colin Sheehan]

I suppose we need to make the distinction between the rough off the fairway and around the greens and the "long rough" beyond it.

This is always a subject of conversation at projects. How can it be whispy and playable but not thick and lead to search parties? I'm reminded of the late Jim Arthur who advocated for an impoverished soil and how that's what's often so good about links courses when managed correctly.

Of course the best rough is no rough at all! Ohoopee has a pace or two of relatively short rough off the before before it transitions into a wonderful native that is full of an attractive mix of flora indigenous to the Ohoopee dunes. And yet, when you hit the ball off line, as I often do, to the point where you think it is completely gone, you almost always wind up walking right to it. It is very easy to spot your ball from 30 or 40 yards away.

I always loved the native at Colorado Golf Club. I thought that was some of the prettiest and most playable native on a new course.

The worst long rough is when it's thick meadow grasses (that people erroneously call fescue) that are irrigated on heavier soil. That is the worst of all scenarios, especially in the spring. That type of grass gets so thick it falls over on itself and is closer to being an agricultural crop that grass.

At the Country Club of Farifield where I grew up caddying and playing back in the 90s, they grew the rough on out-of-play areas throughout the course, but I remember holes 2, 15 and 18 in particular, and it was a disaster. It was long, very thick, often-wet, matted grass with messy seed heads, full of ticks , and it almost always induced a search party and usually become a lost ball. And if you did find it, it was an unplayable shot, especially for the ladies.

[Dan_Callahan]

The wispy rough at both Shinnecock and The Country Club is terrific, in my opinion. With the caveat that you really need a forecaddie. As long as you have an spotter out there ahead of you, you’ll pretty much never lose a ball, and you can typically play it. But how it’ll come out can be a guess, which makes it more interesting.

[Ben Sims]

This conversation comes up from time to time. Theres a course I played this summer in Scotland that has perhaps the best rough and native areas I’ve ever seen. Ballyneal tends to cover its competition in my mind in part because of your ability to find your ball and play it, even if it’s really hard to properly judge how it’ll come out of the various lies you find off the fairway. Are there any courses you’ve played where the rough and native areas were notable for ease of locating balls while also being somewhat challenging to recover?

Some of the best rough is at the smaller courses with no budget to manage it . . . in such places the foot traffic helps to manage it.  If you hit the ball into a popular spot, the grass will be thinner and you're more likely to find it.  If you hit one way wide left into the hay, it's probably gone.  [Also . . . if you hit it a lot further than the normal folk, you'd better be straighter.]


Darwin would have liked this theory.  Charles, not Bernard.

Are you saying Charles Darwin would’ve loved the modern tour pro’s insistence on proportional penalty for a miss? (Rubs chin)

[Simon Barrington]

This conversation comes up from time to time. Theres a course I played this summer in Scotland that has perhaps the best rough and native areas I’ve ever seen. Ballyneal tends to cover its competition in my mind in part because of your ability to find your ball and play it, even if it’s really hard to properly judge how it’ll come out of the various lies you find off the fairway. Are there any courses you’ve played where the rough and native areas were notable for ease of locating balls while also being somewhat challenging to recover?

Some of the best rough is at the smaller courses with no budget to manage it . . . in such places the foot traffic helps to manage it.  If you hit the ball into a popular spot, the grass will be thinner and you're more likely to find it.  If you hit one way wide left into the hay, it's probably gone.  [Also . . . if you hit it a lot further than the normal folk, you'd better be straighter.]

Darwin would have liked this theory.  Charles, not Bernard.

Are you saying Charles Darwin would’ve loved the modern tour pro’s insistence on proportional penalty for a miss? (Rubs chin)

JH Taylor & Peter Lees would like to join that conversation...

There is a nod to such "victorian" concepts and design features returning of late (in moderation, and when relevant for the land not just as an affectation) which I find really interesting (e.g. Cops at Old Barnwell etc.)
A Dye-like desire for difference, and less group think.
Should we accept that the clear distinction between Penal & Strategic was artifically exaggerated and a mix of the two is when architecture can get really good...Pine Valley as the prime example...

[Thomas Dai]

Didn't some Dr from Leeds say "There should be a complete absence of the annoyance and irritation caused by the necessity of looking for lost balls."!
As to managed rough, Stinchcombe Hill in Gloucestershire seems to operate sensibly ..... wider than usual fairways, wide first cut at a slightly higher length than normal first cut thus slowing offline rolling shots down and then for most of the year due to ground nesting birds, hay.
atb

[Jordan Beasley]

The best turf I've ever played on (including the rough) was at Portmarnock.  Very hard to lose a ball, and the areas outside of the fairways were a wonderfully natural panoply of colors, grass types, and heights. I always felt I had a chance from the rough, but I was kept puzzling over each individual lie. On the 3rd hole I was able to play my approach from a few inches of estuary swamp mud, and I'll never forget walking down the 16th fairway and seeing a foot-tall mushroom growing out of the rough, just a few yards from the fairway's edge.  I don't know if that section of rough just didn't require mowing, or if the grounds crew had been carefully mowing around the mushroom - but I love either scenario.

[John Emerson]

The Rothamstead Park Grass experiment shows us that if we want rough that lacks forbs and is dominated by grasses that all we need to do is add small amounts ammonium sulfate yearly and do not apply supplemental irrigation. Adding ANY other input or nutrients tips the scale toward weed encroachment. It's is quite a fascinating experiment and the longest running one in the world if I remember correctly. Been going since 1850's maybe??

[Niall C]

Ben


You never mentioned which course you were referring to ?


In terms of what I'm looking for in rough, ideally it would provide variety in terms of different grasses/vegetation to provide different textures; where there was a lack of uniformity; where the fairway melds into the rough which in turn melds into the deeper stuff so that there are no defined lines; and most of all where it's complete chance whether you get a crap lie that you have to dig the ball out or alternatively a lie that gives you a shot at redemption. As Tom D mentions you tend to get that on lower budget courses, particularly links courses.


Niall   

[Ronald Montesano]

I remember when we almost lost Doak to the left of fairway one at the Downs. Fortunately, I had just taken a photo with my trusty, rusty, SDLR, and we were able to locate him ...


Enough fiction. Do you guys lay awake at night, ranking the roughs? God bless and keep you.

[Phil Young]

Is the rough I didn't hit into

[Michael Morandi]

My view of rough is conditional on my age. When I was young with a high club head speed, few roughs bothered me. Now, at 70, few don’t.

[Niall C]

I remember when we almost lost Doak to the left of fairway one at the Downs. Fortunately, I had just taken a photo with my trusty, rusty, SDLR, and we were able to locate him ...


Enough fiction. Do you guys lay awake at night, ranking the roughs? God bless and keep you.

Ron


Do you not consider it an integral part of the course and the way it plays ? Is it really not worthy of discussion and thought in the same way other aspects of the course are eg. types of grasses used on fairway and greens, fairway widths, firmness of the turf, green contours, use of bunkers etc. ?


Niall

[Sean_A]

I remember when we almost lost Doak to the left of fairway one at the Downs. Fortunately, I had just taken a photo with my trusty, rusty, SDLR, and we were able to locate him ...


Enough fiction. Do you guys lay awake at night, ranking the roughs? God bless and keep you.

Ron


Do you not consider it an integral part of the course and the way it plays ? Is it really not worthy of discussion and thought in the same way other aspects of the course are eg. types of grasses used on fairway and greens, fairway widths, firmness of the turf, green contours, use of bunkers etc. ?


Niall

If recovery is deemed important, rough is at least as influential as fairway. I would sacrifice excellent fairway conditions for excellent rough conditions.

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

I guess I'm an old school, Through The Green guy. It's just grass to me.

[Ben Sims]

I guess I'm an old school, Through The Green guy. It's just grass to me.

As a golf course enthusiast (and golf writer) you don’t make a distinction between the rough and native at, say, Pinehurst #2 vs Winged Foot?


Not sure if I believe you or if you’re just being cheeky.


I started this thread because of the info regarding Brora removing livestock I received last week. But I didn’t want to discuss it directly. Someone else started a thread and so I’ve commented there more directly to the question. I joined Brora because, among many qualities, it’s ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO LOSE A BALL between the land side OB and seaside beach. Being able to essentially play when you want and play quickly with a minimum of concern over lost balls is a big deal. Unless you rarely travel abroad with tee shots or approach shots, rough thickness and makeup has a profound impact on a golf course. Just my two cents.

[Ira Fishman]

Ben,


I was thinking Brora when you started the thread. I also agree that the nature of the rough, especially on links courses, does matter. We had an interesting “study” in June in Ireland. Both Lahinch (my favorite course anywhere) and Carne (what a special place) had brutal rough; it did not undermine our appreciation and enjoyment, but it did make for a longer, more difficult day. Rosses Point and Baltray both had rough of the type you properly admire. Mulranny essentially does really have fairways, but the real rough was great—colors and textures particularly. The surprise was The Island Club. On our first visit in 2016, I remember the rough as quite difficult. This year it was not—only lost a ball if one hit it way off line into the dunes/gorse, and the recovery shots from the rough were varied, but manageable.


Ira

[Jason Topp]

In the Midwest US, the only places I have seen native type areas work well are on sand based sites or at Olympic Hills in Minnesota where they sand capped them at tremendous expense.  The transition from regular rough to native is typically the worst place to hit it.  Such areas look good but play miserably.   If I were the grand Puba of golf I would be inclined to eliminate them absent some compelling reason to keep them.  Searching for golf balls is no one's idea of fun and there is a lot of it.  Trees with cleared underbrush are much more pleasant from that perspective. 


On one play, I liked the approach at Zac Blair's place in South Carolina.  I think it was called Centipede grass.  It looked good, yielded easy ball searches.  My only concern was whether it was challenging enough.  At least in November, it did not seem too difficult to play from.


I believe this is a crucial topic given how many courses have replaced treed areas with native and given the apparent environmental benefits of such areas.