[BCowan]

This would be course you would recommend a greens chairman to play or just a friend on the merits of the course being set up F&F on a consistent basis (weather permitting).

Kingsley Club  

[PCCraig]

My home course, Town & Country Club in Saint Paul, is the most consistently F&F inland / non sand based course I've seen. The property sits on a bluff over the Mississippi River with a ravine running through the middle of the course. It drains incredibly well and in two full seasons the course has never been closed due to excessive rain. That natural advantage coupled with the superintendents top dressing efforts and the course plays super fast.

[David Davis]

For me you have to go up to the Northwest for this. All the Bandon Courses, at least in the summer when I've played them each time and Chambers Bay also plays firm and fast.

[Jason Thurman]

Kingsley is the fastest and firmest for me too, but certainly not the one I would choose if I wanted to show the merits of fast and firm setup to a fellow greens committee member or friend. It's too radical a departure from the norm. That would be like introducing an American macro lager drinker to craft beer by giving them a 14% ABV Russian Imperial Stout. A lot of my friends would be seriously pissed when their putt from above the hole on 17 runs off the front and 80 yards back down the fairway. Plus, the climate at Kingsley is completely foreign to my region of the country, which opens up the whole "Yeah it's fun to play on courses like that in Michigan, but I wouldn't want my home course to be that fast and firm" argument that you hear all the time from people returning from visits to the UK.

For a friend or greens committee member, I'd take them to one of the higher end private courses within an hour or so of where I live. Those courses have turfgrass common to this region but kept firmer and bouncier without fail, and yet everyone would agree that they're in GREAT condition. Valhalla wouldn't be a bad option at all honestly.

[Tom_Doak]

Kingsley is the fastest and firmest for me too, but certainly not the one I would choose if I wanted to show the merits of fast and firm setup to a fellow greens committee member or friend. It's too radical a departure from the norm. That would be like introducing an American macro lager drinker to craft beer by giving them a 14% ABV Russian Imperial Stout. A lot of my friends would be seriously pissed when their putt from above the hole on 17 runs off the front and 80 yards back down the fairway. Plus, the climate at Kingsley is completely foreign to my region of the country, which opens up the whole "Yeah it's fun to play on courses like that in Michigan, but I wouldn't want my home course to be that fast and firm" argument that you hear all the time from people returning from visits to the UK.

For a friend or greens committee member, I'd take them to one of the higher end private courses within an hour or so of where I live. Those courses have turfgrass common to this region but kept firmer and bouncier without fail, and yet everyone would agree that they're in GREAT condition. Valhalla wouldn't be a bad option at all honestly.

Valhalla must have changed since I was there.  It was neither firm nor fast a few years ago.  Honestly, I can't imagine bentgrass fairways in Kentucky being a good example of firm and fast, but I will be happy to hear if someone else confirms your account.

I haven't played anywhere in America where the ball runs out further in the fairways than Bandon.  However, as you say, fescue fairways are not a realistic solution for 3/4 of America.  For something more applicable to more places, I'd take the bermudagrass surface at Streamsong or Wolf Point.

[BCowan]

Mr Craig

    Your course sounds great.  Glad to hear it.  Never been to the land of 10,000 lakes.

Jason

    I agree, i think the green speeds were too quick when we played.  I think 10 on the stemp meter is great, I think they were 12+ when we played.  Do you think F&F implies super fast greens?  I don't.  Good analogy with the beer.  I however don't think a JN course is a good course to show people F&F.  I haven't played Valhalla but other than DR JN i don't think JN is too fond of the ground game and his courses don't accept lower trajectory shots when firm.  I know Kingsley doesn't get heat and is built on sand.  Courses can change their soil profiles with deep core aeration and top dressing.  

[Rob Curtiss]

I would say the Bandon courses , Streamsong , Chambers bay....

I played Pacific Dunes in a steady rain in June and the greens never slowed down..could not believe it. no standing water anywhere

I played Streamsong in August and in Florida ,everything gets soft, not there...greens were like concrete..loved it

[Terry Poley]

In my opinion there are very few golfers that understand what firm and fast really means.. and to that point Tom Doak just reinforced my theory.  Valhalla would be a terrible example of firm and fast.  I have not visited Bandon, but would suspect it truly plays F&F.  As far as the midwest goes, I thought I knew what F&F was until I played Old Elm… That sets the bar at a whole new level, I have never played a course maintained as firm as OE… EVER!!!

[Patrick Kiser]

The California Golf Club of San Francisco would get my vote for F&F on a regular basis.

[BCowan]

Mr Doak

    Any advancements with Buffalo grasses?  Besides fescues, do you like Texas Blue?  What grass would you go with in the Cincinnati,OH area in the fairways?  

    Is the Forest Dunes course you are doing going to be walker friendly?  I love Ross common with S Higgens Lake there.  I take my dogs there to the dog beach.  

[Eric Smith]

For something more applicable to more places, I'd take the bermudagrass surface at Streamsong or Wolf Point.

+1  The finest examples of firm and fast warm season surfaces I've encountered.

[Rees Milikin]

Streamsong, which surprised me due to the amount of rain we receive here during the summer.

[Jason Thurman]

That's the thing though Tom. You can't really get bentgrass in the Ohio Valley to be truly firm and fast. When I played it earlier this year, Valhalla was about as good as it gets on that front - maybe 25 yards of roll on drives for me, and greens that would bounce a 75 yard sand wedge shot forward without letting it zip back.

I'm a member of a bentgrass course in the Ohio Valley. I don't see any point in bringing a bunch of my friends to Kingsley and saying "Man, wouldn't it be great if our courses played like this?!?" Because yeah, it would, but it would also be damn near impossible.

I agree with Terry that few golfers understand what firm and fast really means. I don't think the average player in my area of the country has ever played a course I would categorize as firm and fast (and I wouldn't actually categorize Valhalla that way, I just think it's about as good as I could reasonably expect from my club someday). I also think plenty of GCA members don't know what firm and fast really means though, in the sense that so many guys on this site want every course to play like Bandon regardless of climate and turf. My course will never give me 60 yards of roll off the tee, and a lot of our members don't like playing on turf that firm. But I think I could talk them into more than 10 yards of roll, and that would be really nice.

[BCowan]

Jason-  I think bentgrass is a poor selection in Ohio Valley.  You are assuming that we don't know that it is hotter in Cinci than n. Michigan (dah).  There are very good mixes that keepers have been using.  I would think that Zoysia would play firmer.  Also your course is a parklands.  People on here know how much roll you get with Fescue fairways (Bandon).  They have cool temps there.  It would take a course with deep pockets in the Cinci area to try different turfs on par 3 fairways.  The bent grass only quality grass outlook will change someday.  

Ress-  Florida get 9-10 inches of rain a month in the summer.  I would say the golf season for SS is Nov-March/April when it is the driest in Florida and the snowbirds come down.  Also SS doesn't have many or any trees and dries out quicker in the short winter days.  I wouldn't expect SS to play F&F most days in the summer time but i don't know and have no desire to go to florida in June-Aug.  Dec-Feb is very very dry in Florida.  

[Adam Warren]

I would have to agree with Tom.  It has been a few years since I have been to Valhalla (the Mark Wilson era), but I only remember some firmness in the green surrounds.  Perhaps the new guy that came from Chariot Run has firmed it up a bit.

I would think more for this part of the country, Trophy Club might be a better option for the firm and fast course.

[Matt Glore]

Ballyneal

[PCCraig]

There is nothing F&F about Valhalla.

[Richard Choi]

PNW is blessed with F&F courses with Bandon, Chambers Bay, and Wine Valley. Add Tetherow on top of that and you probably have as many true F&F courses as you will find anywhere in US.

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, I really think it's just a matter of time before bent disappears from this area. I don't know if it'll completely happen in my lifetime, but I do think zoysia's slow takeover has only just begun.

Of course, even zoysia can't get very firm and fast. I just don't believe you can have a course in good condition in this area of the country that gives up more than 30 yards of roll on a drive with any consistency. I'd love to be proven wrong. But in the meantime, again, I don't see any reason to bring a greens committee member from my club to a true fast and firm course like those in the Nebraska Sandhills or Kingsley. I just don't see how courses like that are going to translate into greater buy-in for fast and firm conditions at home. I'd happily take someone there if they professed to enjoy fast and firm conditions already and wanted to play some fun courses. But I just don't feel compelled to try and babysit a grown man through the process of weaning from lush and green to down with brown. I admire your eagerness to guide others toward the light, but I don't have the same energy to help my fellow man see great golf the same way I do anymore. I'd rather just play, and if I can talk everyone on my greens committee into a general dislike of mudballs I'll be happy.

Pat, again, I belong to a bentgrass club in the Ohio Valley. Can you (or Tom, or Terry) name a bentgrass course in the Ohio Valley that consistently offers more than 30 yards of roll on drives? I'd love to find one. Adam is right about Trophy Club being a good option too, but I don't think you could consistently get over 30 yards there either.

[Mike Schott]

Rustic Canyon was playing very F and F when I played it is January of this year. What a pleasure compared to the courses I play in Michigan.

[Matt Bielawa]

#2 post-restoration is pretty F&F

[BCowan]

Town and Country Club, Old Elm, California Golf Club, and Trophy Club are more of what i am looking for.  Old Elm is uber exclusive i believe.  Basically courses in (metro) cities that have broken away from the Green is better mentality

[PCCraig]

Pat, again, I belong to a bentgrass club in the Ohio Valley. Can you (or Tom, or Terry) name a bentgrass course in the Ohio Valley that consistently offers more than 30 yards of roll on drives? I'd love to find one. Adam is right about Trophy Club being a good option too, but I don't even think you could consistently get over 30 yards there either.

Jason,

I'm not trying to be sarcastic with this, I'm just curious. Do you define F&F as 30 yards of roll on a drive? Personally, I'm not so sure that is that rare in today's game?

[Steve Salmen]

If this hasn't been said before, I think F/F should only count after a rain.  Links courses are the most consistently firm and fast because of the compacted sand base and they drain the quickest because of this.

If a golf course has mud after a rain, I don't consider it F/F.  

The only two inland course I've played with really linksy surfaces are Ballyneal and Kingsley, though both were real dry.  Do these courses drain really well? I would be surprised to ever see mud on either of them.

Is there an example of a golf course artificially pouring tons and tons of sand to create FF conditions and great drainage?  I saw this going on at Shinnecock and would be interested if someone knows something about this.

[Steve Salmen]

Sorry, my mistake, I did not see the non fescue disclaimer. Please disregard my gibberish post.

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