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Phil McDade

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Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2013, 03:12:31 PM »
When I played Lawsonia this past fall in September, it was near-ideal F&F. To some extent I agree w/ Tom Doak in that Midwestern courses are often at the mercy of weather, but Lawsonia also has a maintenance practice that encourages the F&F conditions we encountered in late September this year.

Spring Valley (another Langford/Moreau near Salem WI) can play F&F, but that's almost a result of having a minimal maintenance practice -- I know of courses that probably have a larger maintenance budget for a few holes than Spring Valley does for 18.

In mid-summer a few years back, during what I recall as a normal summer of Midwestern weather, Flossmoor played ideally F&F for a parkland course. But Supt. Bob Lively is known as one of the better supers out there, and a proponent of those conditions.

Matthew Mollica

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Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2013, 03:14:07 PM »
Another vote for Rustic Canyon.
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Sven Nilsen

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Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2013, 03:17:38 PM »
Terry:

Interesting comment regarding Lost Dunes and the Dunes Club, as they are two of the closest courses to the area of the Midwest that might contain the best land for golf, that being the sand dunes along the southern edge of Lake Michigan.  Lost Dunes is actually situated upon land that formerly housed a sand quarry.

I'd have to disagree regarding how they played, as my experiences with both courses left me thinking they were both on pretty firm turf (excepting out the holes near the environmentally sensitive areas at Lost Dunes).  

As for design elements, both courses had a mix of aerial and ground game holes.  The 5th hole at the Dunes Club with its carry over the pond is one example of a hole that runs contrary to the concept of an ideal meld.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCowan

Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2013, 03:28:01 PM »
In Sept most courses in the midwest play F&F even unintentionally.  I understand with 1.5+ inches of rain that weather can dictate a lot.  Also keepers don't want to lose fairways especially if they have poa in them.  

My question is with deep core aeration being more prevalent in the last 5-10 years is it realistic for a course with deep pockets and clay soil to attempt to change the soil profile by deep core and top dressing?  Can we create more sand base conditions on natural clay soils rather cost effectively?  The German mach that does this costs $25-50k but clubs can rent them or contract this service out.  

Would the newer Texas Blue work in Cinci or 419 bermuda and paint/fertilize fairways in late fall to protect grass?  Many new hybrids coming out now and in the near future I just think people have been conditioned to prefer Bent.  I was for the longest time.  

Positives is the Pinehurst doesn't over seed with rye.  
Keeper def. matters, has to have firm beliefs.

 


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2013, 04:16:13 PM »
Great post Andrew I agree completely.  Muirfield Village wouldn't play well if it were F&F.  The Arch has to match for F&F.  F&F is basically throwing out the yardage book and playing by feel anticipating run out with drives and approaches short of greens.  Lawsonia looks great and i can't wait to play there.  

This is funny. I have a friend at work who played both Pinehurst No. 2 and Muirfield Village this year. He's a very accomplished player and also a former superintendent. I asked him which he preferred, and he said he really loved Pinehurst but preferred Muirfield because it played so much firmer. I raised an eyebrow, and he told me that he couldn't believe Muirfield was the firmer of the two either but that he had to bounce balls into a lot of the greens and got over 60 yards of roll on a few drives. I'm sure someone who dislikes the course and hasn't visited in 5 years or so will try to tell me his observations aren't correct, but I tend to believe the firsthand account of a scratch player who spent 15 years working as a superintendent, even if he caught the course on an unusually springy day.  ::)

Of course, I've played Lawsonia a half dozen times or so and in every season and never found it remotely "fast and firm" by my definition. I'm encouraged by the reports that its maintenance presentation may have changed, and I haven't played it in two years, but in the 5 or 6 times I played it between 2009 and 2011 it was never remotely as firm and fast as Valhalla was when I played there this summer. I wouldn't describe either course as truly firm and fast, but there's no question which one would've won in a bounciness contest.

Pat, I definitely understand what you're saying about how a course needs more than just firm and fast turf to be interesting, but needs to combine that turf with architectural elements that make that firm and fast turf a real factor in decision making and shotmaking. Fast and firm conditions make some courses much more interesting, but for other courses they simply reveal that there's nothing interesting about the course at all. The sad thing for me is that it's often the lowest budget designs that use their terrain best to create ground game options and really interesting shots, particularly among courses from the Golden Age. And yet, those courses generally make the stupid mistake of trying to compete with their neighbors on "lushness" rather than maintaining conditions that highlight their superior fun factor. It's a bummer.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2013, 04:50:47 PM »
Well any course can be firm with 5-8 days off no rain an vice versa with Pinehurst #2.  Pinehurst design rewards the ground game, they also have bent greens, which they might change to verde or hybrid Bermuda after next years opens making greens firm day in day out.  They are waiting to see how MP greens take (which they were great during turkey week).  I would say half the holes at Muirfield aren't conducive to a ground game.  The greens demand high shots and fades into many.  Muirfield used to have much wider fairways as JN goal i believe is to get an open there.  The Par 5's there are really good, that is all i like about the place.  i am giving an unbiased opinion of Muirfield village, as its arch does not match F&F principles .  So i assume your friend prefers F&F, but did he prefer the design of Muirfield Village over #2?  JN designs look like they might be improving with some of the photo's I saw of Dismal.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2013, 05:32:10 PM »
The sad thing for me is that it's often the lowest budget designs that use their terrain best to create ground game options and really interesting shots, particularly among courses from the Golden Age. And yet, those courses generally make the stupid mistake of trying to compete with their neighbors on "lushness" rather than maintaining conditions that highlight their superior fun factor. It's a bummer.

I'm not sure what courses you had in mind when you wrote the above, but I guess I've found the opposite? I've found the CCFAD courses over water the heck out of their courses to appear "in better shape" for the daily fee golfer to justify higher green fees. I'm not sure that most private courses compete on "lushness", or at least not that I'm aware of. Green speeds...sure...but "lushness?"
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2013, 05:33:41 PM »
And Jason, I know what you mean by Lawsonia playing slow but this past October it was borderline over the top F&F. It seems their superintendent has gotten the message and has sped up the greens significantly and is topdressing like crazy (even while I was there).
H.P.S.

Andrew Lewis

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Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2013, 06:00:50 PM »

Chicago Golf was super firm and fast in 2012, with Chicago in drought conditions.  They maintained it absolutely at the edge; I've never seen it like that before.  But, they are at the mercy of the weather.  The soils are fairly heavy, and in a wet year, it can become very soft.  One of the first times I played it, twenty years ago, our drives were actually plugging in the fairway.  Maybe they need to spend some money on catch basins  ;)

Or, they could just do what they do, and do their best with what Nature throws at them.  I think that's what's missing in all these discussions of firm and fast ... a bit of common sense.  Firm and fast conditions are great fun, and perhaps the ideal expression for some courses.  But "ideal" and "everyday" are not synonyms.

Tom -

I have only seen CGC in dry conditions and certainly agree that a wet year generally or a wet period of time specifically would change its presentation.  But surely it would remain, on a relative basis, firmer and faster than its geographic counterparts given their general practice of not over-watering to begin with and the fairly undulating (by Chicago standards, in any case) land, no?

Your comment on "what Nature throws at them" leads to another painfully obvious observation -- when CGC was designed, irrigation in the modern sense didn't exist, meaning the course had to work in both good weather and poor weather.

The same is true of other older courses with firm/fast reputations like Fisher's Island and Newport -- both of which seem comfortable with fairway hues like those in the photo Joe posted and, one could argue, "grew up" with generally firm/fast conditions out of necessity/nature, versus as an affectation.

Best, Andrew

Terry Poley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2013, 06:08:58 PM »
 :'(Sven,

I am very familiar with the Dunes club, and with Lost Dunes.  I lived in St. Joseph worked at Point O Woods and I have been playing The Dunes since before it was cool and have played Lost Dunes many times.  

With all due respect, especially since I'm a new guy.... I disagree regarding firm and fast.  I have a great amount of respect for Steve Jotzat at Lost Dunes and hope The Dunes finds someone that can fill Al's shoes, but, they are not what I would consider firm and fast.  

With that said... On any given day you may experience firm and fast... But consistently...  



Steve Lang

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Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2013, 06:10:35 PM »
 8) I can't believe no one has mentioned Black Mesa in New Mexico

Course Info
Year Opened     2003
Architect     Baxter Spann of Finger Dye Spann
Principal     Eddie Peck
Director of Golf     Tom Velarde
Superintendent     Pat Brockwell
Elevation     5,400 feet
Greens     Bent Grass
Fairways     Bluegrass
Greens   Aerated   May and September

and off the beaten path, in San Angelo, TX,  the SA CC played F&F last April and has amazing bent greens, very well maintained by Supt who's been there ~30 years  (course is Bredemus designed)
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2013, 06:19:22 PM »
:'(Sven,

I am very familiar with the Dunes club, and with Lost Dunes.  I lived in St. Joseph worked at Point O Woods and I have been playing The Dunes since before it was cool and have played Lost Dunes many times.  

With all due respect, especially since I'm a new guy.... I disagree regarding firm and fast.  I have a great amount of respect for Steve Jotzat at Lost Dunes and hope The Dunes finds someone that can fill Al's shoes, but, they are not what I would consider firm and fast.  

With that said... On any given day you may experience firm and fast... But consistently...  




I guess that's why they were listed in the "High Potential for F&F" section of the list (and note the asterisk by The Dunes Club).

I, too, often skip over the details.

Sven
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 06:24:35 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Carl Rogers

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Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2013, 07:44:25 PM »
surprised no mention of Dormie Club.   Played last September.  A lot of roll out on drives, and big bounces on the greens. I wished I knew more about turf identification.  I do not see how it could be fescue.

I have played at Bandon.  Dormie was comparable.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 07:58:32 PM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2013, 11:03:55 PM »
Northland Country Club in Duluth, MN certainly plays F&F.

There are a number of places where running it onto the green is a really good play.

And it appears that the membership has embraced the non-green look.

Sam Morrow

Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2013, 11:11:03 PM »
Wolf Point
Padre Isles (North Padre Island outside of Corpus Christi)
The Rawls
Austin Golf Club
Grey Rock Golf Club (Austin)

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2013, 11:31:13 PM »
Dormie is not fescue. It's bermuda with bent greens, if I remember correctly. Fescue likely wouldn't do well in the hot NC Sandhills summers.

General rank of golf course grasses to average temperature: Fescue<Rye<Bentgrass<Zoysia<Bermuda

I would agree with Jason that Zoysia is probably the best grass for the Cincinnati to Nashville Mid-South region (fairways, at least.) It is not firm though, someone described it as "velcro-like" and that's a a good comparison. I love how healthy it stays, even dormant.

The firmest courses in the non-fescue division I have played have all been in Nevada and Arizona. The Legacy, in particular, is usually very firm (which in that case isn't necessarily ideal because the design isn't built for that.)

Sean_A

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Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #66 on: January 01, 2014, 04:33:57 AM »
I don't know about firmest/fastest course I have seen in the US (and I don't care because in all likelyhood it was a muni when I was a boy). The best meld of firm and fast (and getting the mix right between fairways and greens) I have come across is probably Yeamans Hall.  Though I must say Dormie Club this fall was not far behind.  Old Town was just a smidge back as well.  None of these approached some of the courses I played in the UK this summer. Its as if the dial went to 11!  As I say, its not just the speed, but getting that transition between the fairways and greens spot on which is most important and nothing can touch well kept fescue for this.  As a corollary, generally when courses get this well tuned the rough too is varied as it shoud be.  When I take in this aspect of the meld, Yeamans Hall is the clear winner I have come across in the US.  

Ciao    
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2014, 10:38:52 AM »
And Jason, I know what you mean by Lawsonia playing slow but this past October it was borderline over the top F&F. It seems their superintendent has gotten the message and has sped up the greens significantly and is topdressing like crazy (even while I was there).

Jason:

I'd concur w/ Pat here -- Lawsonia has improved noticeably in the last year or so.  During a GCA Langford outing back in 2007, Spring Valley played noticeably F&F than Lawsonia. But Lawsonia in my playing there has gotten back to really good F&F conditions in the past couple of seasons. Pat and I played it within weeks of each other this past fall and it was maybe the most ideal F&F conditions I've encountered on a Midwestern course, and its best presentation since I've been going up there in the past two decades.


BCowan

Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2014, 10:47:12 AM »
Steve
 
   You mentioned Black Mesa and then noted they have bluegrass fairways.  I have never played on bluegrass fairways to my recollection.  How were they?  I am sure newer strands can be cut shorter.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #69 on: January 01, 2014, 11:18:16 AM »
 8) Hey Ben,

That data was cut & pasted from website.. The handful of times we've played Black Mesa, F&F was in full play.. the elevation, mountain soils, and layout there are highly conducive to rolling balls  ;D   … no need to short cut the grass, its not like Kentucky...  Pat the Supt. has had it under control since the beginning.. shotmaking fun galore or for some, hell from the desert edges

http://www.blackmesagolfclub.com/golf_course/images.php
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 11:20:07 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #70 on: January 01, 2014, 12:07:01 PM »
Lookout Mountain in Lookout Mountain, GA.   As long as weather permits superintendent Mark Stovall keeps the place very firm and fast.  I always thought about how if he ever left and they hired a super who did not share the same commitment to firm and fast the place could go downhill very fast.  I'll never forget taking my dad out there on a day where the course was literally perfect IMO, a little brown tinge and very firm, fast and bouncy.  He looked at me and asked me why my course wasn't greener and in better shape.   We had an interesting discussion after that.

Prairie Dunes is another good example though it's built on sand.  

Ari, I just loved LM, and the best part was talking to Mark for an hour after my round. I agree with Oakmont too.

I guess I should weigh in on Valhalla too. I do get what Jason is saying, and Valhalla does a better job being firm and fast than most around the Ohio Valley region. However, I would never claim that it was fast and firm. You just can't have course with bent, that fairway cut, and greens cut in this part of the country play that way. Everything would die.  The nine hole course next to my dad's old office in New Salisbury, IN is a better example because the ground is rock hard and they focus solely on the greens.  The ball bounces 8 feet high when it hits.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 12:31:02 PM by Nigel Islam »

Ari Techner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #71 on: January 01, 2014, 01:36:11 PM »
Lookout Mountain in Lookout Mountain, GA.   As long as weather permits superintendent Mark Stovall keeps the place very firm and fast.  I always thought about how if he ever left and they hired a super who did not share the same commitment to firm and fast the place could go downhill very fast.  I'll never forget taking my dad out there on a day where the course was literally perfect IMO, a little brown tinge and very firm, fast and bouncy.  He looked at me and asked me why my course wasn't greener and in better shape.   We had an interesting discussion after that.

Prairie Dunes is another good example though it's built on sand.  

Ari, I just loved LM, and the best part was talking to Mark for an hour after my round.

Nigel,

There is a great video of Mark bouncing a golf ball off the 8th fairway at LM like it is a basketball.  Apparently the superintendent at St. Andrews sent him a video of him doing the same thing on TOC and asked Mark if they could do that in the USA.  Mark went right outside and sent him the video back within 5 minutes.  Not alot of courses in the USA that could do that at any time let alone most days of the year.  

Matt OBrien

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #72 on: January 01, 2014, 07:55:43 PM »
Huntingdon Valley Country club plays very firm as long as mother nature cooperates.

Andy Shulman

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Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2014, 11:52:12 PM »
Equally surprised that there's been no mention of Ballyhack near Roanoke, VA.  Others I've played that qualify are Dormie and the seaside courses at Bandon.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Course that is the F&F you have played (Non Fescue courses)
« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2014, 04:12:06 PM »
The great Merion East is always F&F