[Garland Bayley]

Ran was ecstatic about Sand Hills. He hasn't profiled Dismal River, and doesn't have it in his next fifty. What does that tell you?

Tells me he hasn't been there.

Dismal River Nicklaus (Red?) is as polarizing a golf course as I've heard of. I really liked it and frankly can't see why some guys thing it's terrible. But, I think the fact that it has such wide ranging opinions make it more worth profiling than some courses which, while I'm sure they are very good, are in many ways more of the same.

Following the news on this website and golf magazines, it appears that the polarization is relaxing. The original Dismal was often deemed a course that Jack could play and enjoy, but as was often the case, he offered little to the vast majority of golfers. Under Chis's guidance it has been softened and has been getting better and better reviews here. Some of the early magazine raters have openly stated here their appreciation of what has been done recently to make the course more enjoyable.

[Mark Steffey]

i am arriving in denver on june 25th and hope to get over to sand hills on the 26th before dismal for the weekend (i'll hit the denver area on wednesday after we land & again monday the 30th before flying out).

--i'll have information on enough to comment then  

[Jeff Tang]

I have played Sand Hills but haven't been to Dismal. To the original question comparing the courses in terms of their rankings I think a lot has to do with initial impressions. From what I understand when Dismal first opened it was very penal being too narrow for the winds of that region with the native way too dense. I think once a course is seen by raters and a perception formed it's difficult to shake. From what I read it sounds like DR has made a lot of changes to the course to make it more playable but it will likely take some time before this is reflected in the rankings. As mentioned though I haven't been to Dismal so never saw the first iteration but that is my understanding of some of the early criticisms, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Matt Elliot]

While I have not played Ballyneal or Sand Hills I can say without a doubt that I feel the sand hills region in Nebraska and CO provide some of the best golf in the world.  Dismal is included in this.  I personally like it.  Challenging and unique.  There are a few to many blind shots  but overall a fun track.  I used to live 40 miles south of North Platte and truly love the links style of golf that is provided in NE.  A lot of hidden gems in my opinion.  I head out each June with a large group of buddies and we play Wildhorse (great course), Bayside (really neat course) and Dismal.  I am looking forward to playing the Doak course this year!  One of the main things I love about these courses is the overall solitude that comes with them.  I have had days at Bayside and Dismal where our group is the only other people you see.  I think that helps to make the overall experience better.  Well worth the 14 hour drive home!

For those of you who have played Ballyneal and Sand Hills, how do they compare to Prairie Dunes?  I know what the ranking say but wanted some first hand experience.  Different regions but somewhat similar terrain. I have played PD numerous times and it is my favorite course.  One day I hope to add Ballyneal and Sand Hills to my list!

[Matt Glore]

RCurtis,
Where do you currently play golf?  You are in for a very special trip into the Sand Hills.  
You will really enjoy Dismal, no doubt about it.  High winds on the White course can almost make it unfair will make it impossible.  I'm sure a format like the 5th Major will really help.  My one round was in 20+MPH winds, and my buddy nearly left the course crying.  Me, I enjoyed every shot and lost ball of the round.  
Dismal Red- Looks to be a fantastic course.  I played it during the grow in period.  I can't give a true review of the course, so my comparison is between the white and SH.

The following day we went to Sand Hills.  Its in another league.  It is much more playable than DR White.  The greens at SH are the best by a long margin I ever played.  The golfing experience is just different.  The quality of the holes from one to the next is unmatched.  The ratings show that.  Dismal easily matched the overall experience of Sand Hills for me.  The location- getting there is half the fun- having two courses, the views, the cabins are all part of the experience and Dismal gets a check mark on Sand Hills.

I have a short list of high end golf courses compared to many on this site and Sand Hills would be the best place I could imagine for a week of golf.  

Try your best to get to Ballyneal, that was the other course on our trip.  

[Rob Curtiss]

Thanks Matt for the info..

I Play mostly in Florida-where I live- but have played in all kinds of weather- Bandon Dunes with 30 mph constant winds and Links at Spanish Bay with higher winds yet...I thought it was fun and a challenge.

Are the courses too challenging for a high handicap though. I am bringing my dad to the 5th Major and I dont want him to leave crying.

[David Davis]

The Sand Hills are certainly full of some of the best golf in the US.

I was fortunate to play all of them in the same week this year. I just loved them but would say looking back I don't remember many of the individual holes without looking them up at Sand Hills and Ballyneal which to me were similar due to the terrain. I'm not saying the courses or architecture were similar just that I can no longer differentiate a lot of the holes. However, I can remember every single hole on the Dismal Doak course and many of the holes on the Nicklaus course. I suppose that says something in and of itself. I guess I played 4 rounds at Sand Hills, or at least 3 and a half.

I find it really hard to compare the Doak and Nicklaus courses at Dismal. I think the Doak course in terms of architecture is far superior however, I really like the fun factor on the Nicklaus course as well although I'm not a big fan of his courses. What I thought was really fun  for a change was all the bowl type greens where you can play the ball past the hole and let it run back down to the hole, making recovery shots fun and quite easy actually. I enjoy blind shots so didn't have any issues there

As far as the rest of the stuff goes:

My favorite accommodations were Ballyneal first, then Dismal and lastly, Sand Hills a very distant 3rd. Nothing wrong with simple and rustic but Ballyneal and Dismal had some of the most comfortable beds I've ever experienced at golf club/resort.

In terms of food it was all the same to me and I had the Sand HIlls dry aged steak which was supposed to be to die for. My expectation was too high and it was a bit disappointing but in total all the food out there was high quality country cooking.

You can't beat Dismal for a warm and laid back welcome. That alone makes it a place that I would return to.

[Mac Plumart]

The thing about it is that the Sandhills area of NE is simply amazing.  Literally mind blowing terrain for golf.  If you've never been and you are a golfer, you have to go.  Period.  Here are a few stories...

-I got my invite to play Sand Hills a few years back.  I got to bring a foursome.  I was new to GCA at the time, so I asked some of my Atlanta golfing buddies to join me.  One of them said, "Why would I go to Nebraska to play golf?  We've got golf courses right here."

Fortunately for me, they didn't go on that trip and I linked up with some great GCAers.  And played a bunch of courses including Sand Hills and Dismal River.  Obviously, I was blown away.

After joining Dismal, I insisted my friend, who made that previous comment, join me at Dismal.  I wouldn't take no for an answer.  He brudgingly came with me.  

He is now a member.  Once he got there and saw it...he was blown away.  He understood why people would travel from Atlanta to the middle of nowhere Nebraska to play golf.  It is simply that good and that special.

So, if any of you guys are golfers and haven't been...I really think you need to go.  I don't care if it is Sand Hills or Dismal River White or Red.  It is pretty amazing stuff.  Dismal White...you need to play with an experienced member on your first round or two in order to handle the blindness and unique nature of the course...it can be bamboozling on your first play or two.


-The changing winds change the courses out there a great deal.  A GREAT DEAL.  Nothing takes better advantage of this than Dismal Red, IMO.  Holes become drivable par 4's in certain winds, par 5's strategy changes, air attack, ground attack, carries can be made or not made depending on the winds.


-I almost didn't go to play Dismal on my first trip to Mullen due to comments from this site.  That would have been a HUGE mistake in my golfing life.  That is why I get irritated a bit when people who have never played the course comment on it.  They have no clue what the hell they are talking about...and this type of nonsense almost robbed me of discovering one of the great joys of my life.  That would have been a DAMN shame.


But again, the bottom line is that playing golf in the Sandhills of Nebraska is really, and sincerely, something very special.  I don't care if it is at Sand Hills or Dismal River.  And maybe Sand Hills is your favorite, maybe Dismal White, or Dismal Red.  In the end, it simply depends on your personal taste.  Frankly, I could play all three in a never ending rotation and have the most satisfying golf life ever known to man.

[Chris Johnston]

RCurtiss -

Both you, and your Dad, will have a great time at the 5th Major.  The event is a blast, and the camaraderie even more so.  As to playability, the White course is quite fair.  Like most courses, should the wind really pick up, "daily par" can go from 72 to 80, for everyone.  You won't play better surfaces, the greens are terrific, and Dismal (White/Nicklaus) allows/rewards creativity far more than most.

As to your original post, I think you asked about the "gulf" in ratings between Sand Hills and Dismal (White).  First, Sand Hills is truly wonderful and deserves every accolade it receives.  On the surface, to me, Dismal (White) is pretty severely underrated.  Mind you, its a great neighborhood, and the White does seem to suffer from this.  By definition, every course falls short of #1, but I've never seen a really good course placed so far from a highly rated neighbor.  In my own (fairly well traveled) world, I would place the White course in the top mid 30ish (Modern) range.  Much closer, yet still well behind, Sand Hills.  I also think it probablyt proper to throw out earlier ratings - both the course and irrigation have been changed for the better...it isn't the same course as it was at opening, not even close.  Time and some simple changes have been kind to the White.

The new Dismal (Red/Doak) is very special...18 really good holes and not a weak one in the routing.  I can't tell you where it will be (or if it will be) ranked, but I can tell you it will be fun, natural, and stunningly gorgeous.  I've never seen anything like it, and that is a tribute to Tom Doak and his bunch, and great site.

Very much looking forward to meeting both you and your Dad.  

[Rob Curtiss]

Chris,

Looking forward to meeting you as well.
I am sure I will have a blast . its all about the good time and good people to play with.
I have played in the mountains, along the ocean, in the desert and in a parkland setting.
Looking forward to the Sand Hills of Nebraska.

And knowing you are or where a member at Sand Hills as well. I thank you for the Info and comparison.

[HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry]

I would love to see a boxing match between Dismal Red and Sand Hills (sans DMoriarity's commentary).................. :-)

[Matt Glore]

Thanks Matt for the info..

I Play mostly in Florida-where I live- but have played in all kinds of weather- Bandon Dunes with 30 mph constant winds and Links at Spanish Bay with higher winds yet...I thought it was fun and a challenge.

Are the courses too challenging for a high handicap though. I am bringing my dad to the 5th Major and I dont want him to leave crying.

Being at Bandon will surely help you!  We had never experienced that elevation or wind, both being from Louisiana.  I think you will surely leave knowing how special that location of the country is for golf.  My buddy is anywhere from a mid 90s shooter to a high 70s shooter.  He was not on his game, but mostly it got him mentally.  He was a wreck!  Then he goes out and fires off a 37 front 9 of Sand Hills the next morning!  Funny game.  
My screen saver is a picture of Dismal White #6!!  I look at a dozen times a day.

[Brett_Morrissy]

So, if any of you guys are golfers and haven't been...I really think you need to go.  I don't care if it is Sand Hills or Dismal River White or Red.  It is pretty amazing stuff. Dismal White...you need to play with an experienced member on your first round or two in order to handle the blindness and unique nature of the course...it can be bamboozling on your first play or two.


-The changing winds change the courses out there a great deal.  A GREAT DEAL.  Nothing takes better advantage of this than Dismal Red, IMO.  Holes become drivable par 4's in certain winds, par 5's strategy changes, air attack, ground attack, carries can be made or not made depending on the winds.

Mac, you post prompted  a couple of questions I wanted to ask you and the DG. Hoping Rob doesn't mind a slight thread jack, he has excellent advice it appears from the replies.

(I was fortunate to see Ballyneal and Sand Hills in 2010 - at the time, I am pretty certain that it was almost a 100% bagging of the Nicklaus course on this forum, and we chose not to include it on our itinerary, although we would have struggled to fit it anyway)

...my memories of both BN & SH are vivid, but SH reigns supreme for incredible holes and incredible experience - I can still remember every hole - loved it. I hope I one day get a chance to visit Dismal - the changes to the Nicklaus course sounds as though it addressed many of those early issues that Chris mentions above as worth re-visiting.

Mac - re the white course - you say that it is really difficult for a new player to find their way around it the first couple of times - do you and others think this is a negative? I do, sight unseen of course. You also describe it as having potential to bamboozle - again - I don't see that as a positive. Would you like to discuss these aspects a little more? This is of course not as relevant if you get to play the course all the time, but I imagine frustrating to the first timer - who may never get to see it again. I also presuming that the design brief was for a private members course, so that kind of deals with that I suppose, but still not ideal?

Second point I wanted to ask/discuss, was the manner in which the design of the course changes the strategy or shot making due to the wind. My favourite Doak course is Barnbougle Dunes in Tasmania - it is routed over and across a narrow piece of frontal dune, that 'forced' the routing to have many holes in similar directions. So, on a change of wind direction, many of the hole's characteristics change dramatically - which of course makes for great variety and fun and interest.

Are there any/many GCA'ers apart from Tom that have played and seen both Dismal Red and Barnbougle Dunes? How do you compare them? When you consider actual travel time, you probably couldn't get two courses further apart - but if the Red course has no weak holes as mentioned earlier, then it will probably get the honours.

[John Cowden]

I frickin' love reading about these wonderful golf courses.  It was 50' in Holyoke today, 46' in Mullin.  Golf weather!  

[Scott Szabo]

57 in Holyoke today, but VERY windy.  Nice to be out of the office though!

[Sam Morrow]

Both are amazing places, Dismal Nicklaus is about as unique and polarizing as it gets. Chances are you either love it or hate it, nothing wrong with that. I think Sand Hills is better but I think Dismal might be more fun.

[William_G]

There is a wealth of fantastic golf in the Sand Hills and Chop Hills. From WildHorse to Ballyneal. With Sand Hills, Dismal River and the Prairie Club in between. I'm still trying to make it to all of them.

yes lots of golf, but miles and miles too

Having just visited the Sand Hills and Chop Hills, the main thing I am left with is how much sandy terrain there is, it is everywhere you look.

As opposed to coastal courses where the sand appears as you approach the ocean, and you know you are there, you seem like you there for a long time in CO and NE.

The question we were asking as we were driving hundreds of miles, is how many more golf courses could be laid out in CO and NE if anyone cared to.

The feeling you get in Hooker County is "lonely beauty", because there is no one else there, LOL.

In the end it will be the people who make it work at Dismal, as it is still "new". It was great to meet some members there, look forward to making it back again.

[Mac Plumart]

Mac - re the white course - you say that it is really difficult for a new player to find their way around it the first couple of times - do you and others think this is a negative?

This is one of the issues with the discussion group on this site that I find a bit frustrating.  You have one group of designers and their courses where if the "one and done-ers" don't like it after one play, the course sucks.  And you have another group of designers and courses where if after one play they didn't like the course, well...they need to play it again...they missed something...the course reveals its greatness over time...you need multiple plays to uncover it hidden nuances, etc, etc, etc.

Dismal White is one of two courses at a PRIVATE MEMBERS destination club.  In that genre of design, it is ideal.  It is meant to be played by members multiple times each time they come out to THEIR club.  The course is bold and dramatic with lots of hidden nuances.  If unlocking the courses hidden nuances is not something someone aspires to, then they will never fully "get" Dismal White.  You might walk off the course and rip up your scorecard in frustration, just like Bobby Jones did the first time he went around The Old Course in St. Andrews.  But, just like Bobby Jones and The Old Course...perhaps the more you play it, the more you will enjoy Dismal White.

"One and Done-ers" might not be able to appreciate courses like this...but that is just the idea with a course like this.  The more you play it, the more you learn about it.  It never gets old.  Add in the wind...and you've got an ever changing course full of bold features and subtle features; IDEAL for a private members course.  "One hit wonders" might get it...they might not.  For me, someone who went to play it while looking for their club to be a national member of...I liked it right away.  I didn't go to play it to just check a box and say I'd been there, done that; Next!  So, that was never my mentality at Dismal River...so, to your question Brett...no, I don't find that a negative at all.


Having been around the course a lot...and vividly remembering my first few times around...I always suggests newbie's play with an experienced member.  They can give advice and guidance on the basics of each hole and what your options are...starting at the tee.  This can help ease the newbie's into the course...but each golfer will need to figure out how to play each hole on it, in light of their own game and current weather conditions.  THAT is the fun of it.  Equifinality.  Which golfers can pick and choose from to try to tackle each hole.  And, over time, unlock each hole...per their game.

[Dan Herrmann]

Mac - that's really, really well said!

[William_G]

albeit the Sand Hills and Chop Hills have tons and tons of sand...the geography and terrain is everchanging

without any scientific analysis, I would say Sand hills is the least severe property, while Ballyneal and Dismal Doak are moderately interesting, while Dismal Jack has the most severe terrain

Prairie Club is tame relatively, yet their next course is planned on some fantastic terrain with river viewage

amazing part of the world, any serious golf nut should visit  

[Keith OHalloran]

Dismal Doak -  possibly perfect routing that provides everything one could want in a golf course

Dan,
I am fascinated by an architect's ability to route a golf course, and am at a loss in how to evaluate a routing. You called the a Doak course a possibly perfect routing. I would be interested in hearing  more of your thoughts. Having played The Doak, it may help me conceptualize the evaluation.
Thanks

[Tom_Doak]

without any scientific analysis, I would say Sand hills is the least severe property, while Ballyneal and Dismal Doak are moderately interesting, while Dismal Jack has the most severe terrain

Actually, I think Ballyneal was the most severe property of the four.  It had the most abrupt contours [and the most contour overall], whereas both courses at Dismal are laid out over bigger and broader contours.  

In the end, that worked out well, but only once I'd found a good routing through all the dunes at Ballyneal, and done a bit more earthwork than you know.  It looks easier once it's done!  Just go 100 yards out into the native on some hole, and look around.  [And try not to get your vehicle stuck ]

[DMoriarty]

I would love to see a boxing match between Dismal Red and Sand Hills (sans DMoriarity's commentary).................. :-)

If it were done by someone somewhat objective, I'd like to see that as well.  But given the newness of the Red and the level of euphoria which has accompanied its creation, and given Tom D's growing sensitivities to any potential criticism of his new courses, this might not be the best time or place for the match.

But how about a boxing match between Dismal White and Sand Hills?  After all, the topic of the thread is why Sand Hills is considered so much better than Dismal White.  Both courses have been around for a while, and it is not as if Jack Nicklaus is here hanging on every word.

[Chris Johnston]

"and given Tom D's growing sensitivities to any potential criticism of his new courses"

I don't see this, and don't see the point in the comment at all.

[William_G]

without any scientific analysis, I would say Sand hills is the least severe property, while Ballyneal and Dismal Doak are moderately interesting, while Dismal Jack has the most severe terrain

Actually, I think Ballyneal was the most severe property of the four.  It had the most abrupt contours [and the most contour overall], whereas both courses at Dismal are laid out over bigger and broader contours.  

In the end, that worked out well, but only once I'd found a good routing through all the dunes at Ballyneal, and done a bit more earthwork than you know.  It looks easier once it's done!  Just go 100 yards out into the native on some hole, and look around.  [And try not to get your vehicle stuck ]

interesting

well then great job with BN, because Jack's sure looks severe while playing it, LOL

coincidentally as we were driving out to play Jack's,  we saw a work truck stuck just 5 yards off the cart path  

looking forward to a return trip

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