Inferior holes on otherwise highly regarded courses

[J_ Crisham]

17 at Bandon Dunes and 5 and 18 at Whistling Straights are other obvious choices.

Jud,   Why no love for 17 at Bandon Dunes? I find it pretty frightening on the approach shot with a North wind and the danger lurking on the right and short. Green is pretty good- tee shot is not anything special. I agree with WS choices.

[Mark Bourgeois]

does the presence of a weaker or inferior hole(s), irrespective of whether or not it's a connector hole, diminish the stature of an otherwise highly regarded course?

ATB

Thomas

What if their presence improved the course's stature, at least for people who wanted to play the course more than a couple of times?

[Jud_T]

17 at Bandon Dunes and 5 and 18 at Whistling Straights are other obvious choices.

Jud,   Why no love for 17 at Bandon Dunes? I find it pretty frightening on the approach shot with a North wind and the danger lurking on the right and short. Green is pretty good- tee shot is not anything special. I agree with WS choices.

Well, for starters it's my least favorite hole on my least favorite course at the resort.  I just find it unnecessarily penal in the strong winds that blow often in the summer, particularly for a higher handicap player.  It may have been a necessary evil of the routing, but that doesn't make it a good hole IMO.

[Mike Hendren]

12 at Pebble Beach is a pile of steaming hot garbage.

While that sentiment prevails on this site, I don't understand.  Why?

Bogey

It's a nice section of land with good elevation change. It could have produced something really nice. And the basics are there. A green that falls away from the tee. A yardage that allows for a club that makes it hard to judge how much the ball will run out when it lands. Unfortunately, the execution just sucks. There's basically no room to run the ball on, which sorta defeats the whole purpose of a front-to-back green for me. The green is too shallow. It's a pure hit-and-hope shot. And yeah, I guess 17 has some similarities, but at least the front side of 17's green is fairly accessible and the rear section tempts you to hit a stupid shot. There's no temptation on 12. The right play is to always fire at the flag, since for the average player the only chance of stopping a decently struck shot is to hit the flagstick.

Hard to argue with that when you put it in the context of what might have been.  However, there's a hint of "it's not fair"in your criticism and heaven knows that you don't play that card on this website.

bogey

[Jim Nugent]

18 at CPC is the classic one that's often brought up, and is why more than one person has called CPC "the greatest 17 hole course in the world." 

[Tim Martin]

#6 at Olympia Fields North
#16 at Chicago Golf Club
#1 and #18 at Shoreacres
#18 at Fishers Island
#7 at Prairie Dunes
#1 at Pebble Beach
#18 at SFGC
Pedestrian holes on great courses IMO

Jack-I am a fan of Fishers Island 18th. A classic half par hole with a pretty difficult green especially if you are above the hole and sited expertly at the terrains high point. It should provide plenty of excitement in match play and not be a card wrecker.

[Thomas Dai]

does the presence of a weaker or inferior hole(s), irrespective of whether or not it's a connector hole, diminish the stature of an otherwise highly regarded course?
ATB

Thomas
What if their presence improved the course's stature, at least for people who wanted to play the course more than a couple of times?

Mark - no problem at all. One mans meat is another mans poison and all that. Many things in golf tend to be subjective not objective. I did note your earlier reference to the 2nd and 11th at TOC! Improvements (sic)?

I raised this topic and highlighted these particular two courses as I recently sat in on a discussion comparing the two courses, the outcome of which was that Dornoch was the superior course as it only had one weaker hole whereas Portrush had two, although I do reckon Sean makes a pertinent point when he states in relation to the 17th and 18t at Royal Portrush that their positioning in the round is unfortunate, for the holes themselves are alright, simply in the wrong place in the round (and back-to-back as well).

I'm still not convinced by the 16th at Royal Dornoch though. Wonderful view from the top of the ridge/green but surely an Archie somewhere can suggest a better way to play from the 15th green to the 17th tee?

Tenby is another course that attracts comment comparing the majority of holes within the main body of the course and 'the other three over the railway line'. Not necessarily (?) 'bad' holes in themselves, but they all come back-to-back and at the end of the round when so much unforgettable loveliness has come beforehand. If the exact same holes were positioning at different points in the round with 'better' holes in between would they still be seen in the same manner?

ATB

[Charlie Gallagher]

Brian,
   I don't think the hole fits very well with what come before it. Of course what comes before it, in my opinion, is some of the most inspiring golf on the planet. I do agree with your point that it is not a ball buster requiring brute force; it's not a terrible hole, it just doesn't resonate like the others, and to me it feels a bit out of place.

[BCowan]

#3 and #18 at Scioto

#3, #5, and #8 at Inverness

#9 and #18 at Naples National

#17 at UofM

[Jason Thurman]

12 at Pebble Beach is a pile of steaming hot garbage.

While that sentiment prevails on this site, I don't understand.  Why?

Bogey

It's a nice section of land with good elevation change. It could have produced something really nice. And the basics are there. A green that falls away from the tee. A yardage that allows for a club that makes it hard to judge how much the ball will run out when it lands. Unfortunately, the execution just sucks. There's basically no room to run the ball on, which sorta defeats the whole purpose of a front-to-back green for me. The green is too shallow. It's a pure hit-and-hope shot. And yeah, I guess 17 has some similarities, but at least the front side of 17's green is fairly accessible and the rear section tempts you to hit a stupid shot. There's no temptation on 12. The right play is to always fire at the flag, since for the average player the only chance of stopping a decently struck shot is to hit the flagstick.

Hard to argue with that when you put it in the context of what might have been.  However, there's a hint of "it's not fair"in your criticism and heaven knows that you don't play that card on this website.

bogey

There's a fine line between "hit and hope" and "unfair." It's the same hole for everybody, so it's inherently "fair." It just isn't much fun, and the fact that you're just hoping the ball stops somewhere on that shallow platform means it isn't very interesting either. Pebble's best holes make you want to hit the heroic shot even when there's a much simpler and higher percentage option available. On 12, there is only the heroic shot and that missing element of temptation is glaringly obvious in the context of the rest of the course. Even that would be okay, though, if the heroic and option-free shot were a good and dramatic one. Something that really gets the blood flowing, like 17 at Sawgrass or the 5th at Pine Valley. But instead, it's just kind of a mundane affair with poor visual appeal and the result is that even a great shot just doesn't feel all that satisfying. On that front, you can compare it against the approach to 14 - equally hit-and-hope and equally treacherous, but this time flying over a gigantic bunker with a ridiculously scary looking green. Seeing the ball land up top is a thrill on 14, while seeing a ball hit the green at 12 is just... it's okay I guess.

[J_ Crisham]

#6 at Olympia Fields North
#16 at Chicago Golf Club
#1 and #18 at Shoreacres
#18 at Fishers Island
#7 at Prairie Dunes
#1 at Pebble Beach
#18 at SFGC
Pedestrian holes on great courses IMO

Jack-I am a fan of Fisher's Island 18th. A classic half par hole with a pretty difficult green especially if you are above the hole and sited expertly at the terrains high point. It should provide plenty of excitement in match play and not be a card wrecker.

Tim,  I just find it anticlimactic after 17 incredible holes- I agree the green complex is very good. If you noticed 3 of my choices were 18 th holes- I like to finish with a strong hole- ie Oakmont for instance,Riviera or Merion.

[Ken Fry]

Crystal Downs #17 is the poster child for this category.  I think it was put there intentionally to provide a reality check so you realize just how great the other 17 holes are...  

Sorry Jud.  I have to strongly disagree with that statement.

Any club from a driver to 5 iron works on the drive depending on how bold and committed you are.  The skyline green is dramatic and appealing.  Now that the white cinder block "house" on the hill right of the hole is gone, what's not to like??

Ken

Ken,

It's been beaten to death elsewhere so I don't really want to reopen a can of worms.  I get that members who've played the hole hundreds of times may have a soft spot for the its uniqueness and challenge. To most everyone else it's just a bit of a headscratcher.  Maybe it's really a poster child for why awkward connectors should be par 3's and not 4s and 5s in a routing.  I know Tom's going to go to his deathbed defending the hole, one just get's the impression that if it were on most any other course, he might not be quite so generous.
 

Jud,

I know the 17th was beat to death in the "Connector Holes" thread a few months ago.  I still stand by my comments and feel it's one of the better holes on the course.  It's a very unique use of the existing topography and I love the flow through to 18.

Ken

[Patrick_Mucci]

12 at Pebble Beach is a pile of steaming hot garbage.

How so ?

[Sean_A]

The real question is, how many great and very good holes does a course have?

Some very interesting thoughts and a good point made above, but alternatively how many top quality holes does a course need to have to be considered great? 18? 17? 16? 15?.......and thus does the presence of a weaker or inferior hole(s), irrespective of whether or not it's a connector hole, diminish the stature of an otherwise highly regarded course?

ATB

I reckon you are shooting way over the mark. 2 or 3 top quality holes is quite unusual and I would think easily enough to push a course into possible great territory so long as the remaining holes aren't a mess.  I often cite TOC's 9th because its a bland hole hole in a bit of a bland patch.  TOC is the course which breaks most rules in terms of greatness and it is easy to see why many don't buy into the legend.  There is much of a front 9 which falls miles short of great and if truth be told, is rather much of a muchness.  But TOC does have the few remarkable holes which more than make up for its many, many faults. Its hard to point to one hole anywhere which will significantly drag down a course, but I am always suspicious when folks defend an obviously inferior hole in the name of...well whatever excuse is made for a poor hole.  Only a misguided lover of all that is TOC could believe the 9th a good hole, especially when compared to the properly great holes on the course.  

Ciao

[AndrewB]

Some highly regarded and much praised courses have holes that are inferior or weaker than the rest of the holes on their otherwise splendid course.

A couple of examples that come to my mind are -

the 16th hole at Royal Dornoch

...

The dislike for 16 at RDGC is certainly a recurring theme.  I like the hole and never felt it deserved to be singled out in this way, but it continually is.  More discussion about this from a dozen years ago: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=5156.20

[Garland Bayley]

17 at Bandon Dunes and 5 and 18 at Whistling Straights are other obvious choices.

What did you do at BD? Quit after 17?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JCrisham,

You have to remember that the 18th hole, designed in the era of "match" play, was often an irrelevant hole, since most matches had been concluded by # 18, therefore, on the courses built by the ODG's you can't employ a medal plan mentality when evaluating the 18th hole.

[Steve Salmen]

17 and 18 at Machrihanish
7 at Royal Dornoch is a much more ordinary hole than 16 IMO
I think 11 at TOC is one of the best par 3s I've ever played, and I'm not a huge fan of the course (#9 all the way)
Jack, I prefer 16 at Chicago to #9
7 at Shinnecock should go the way the rest of CBM's work there.
I thought 11 at Cypress was the most ordinary on an otherwise spectacular course.
The approach to #14 at Pebble is shameful.
18 at Yale is awful.  It is my understanding that money was short at the end and the fairway was not modified as was intended.  What's left is a very difficult hole to play if you've never seen it.
9 at Kingsley.   As Arnold Palmer would say, it's the best hole of it's kind.
18 at Pacific Dunes is not very consistent with the rest of the course. I feel I'm in a gully.
8 at the Dunes Club.  I don't like long holes (par 4s or 5s ) that takes driver out of the bag on the tee.
If Beverly has a week hole, it's 13.

[Jason Thurman]

12 at Pebble Beach is a pile of steaming hot garbage.

How so ?

[Will MacEwen]

17 at Bandon Dunes and 5 and 18 at Whistling Straights are other obvious choices.

17 is still a good hole, it used to play much tougher and was a very good hole 10 years ago.

18 is the clunker on BD, especially given that it bats cleanup.

[Tim Martin]

17 and 18 at Machrihanish
7 at Royal Dornoch is a much more ordinary hole than 16 IMO
I think 11 at TOC is one of the best par 3s I've ever played, and I'm not a huge fan of the course (#9 all the way)
Jack, I prefer 16 at Chicago to #9
7 at Shinnecock should go the way the rest of CBM's work there.
I thought 11 at Cypress was the most ordinary on an otherwise spectacular course.
The approach to #14 at Pebble is shameful.
18 at Yale is awful.  It is my understanding that money was short at the end and the fairway was not modified as was intended.  What's left is a very difficult hole to play if you've never seen it.
9 at Kingsley.   As Arnold Palmer would say, it's the best hole of it's kind.
18 at Pacific Dunes is not very consistent with the rest of the course. I feel I'm in a gully.
8 at the Dunes Club.  I don't like long holes (par 4s or 5s ) that takes driver out of the bag on the tee.
If Beverly has a week hole, it's 13.

I would be interested in seeing the reference to there being a shortage of money compromising the construction of the 18th hole at Yale. The land was donated and the construction budget was $400,000 which was a huge amount of money in the 1920's. It has to be one of the most unique and awe inspiring holes that Mac/Raynor ever built. Most of the haters have their cards wrecked on this hole.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Tenby is another course that attracts comment comparing the majority of holes within the main body of the course and 'the other three over the railway line'. Not necessarily (?) 'bad' holes in themselves, but they all come back-to-back and at the end of the round when so much unforgettable loveliness has come beforehand. If the exact same holes were positioning at different points in the round with 'better' holes in between would they still be seen in the same manner?

ATB

Tenby was the example I had in mind.

The problem with the the three 'bastard' holes at Tenby is not so much that they are inferior, more that they are totally alien to the rest of the course. Fifteen fantastically old-fashioned links holes are interrupted by three modern parkland holes at 15, 16, and 17. Put these holes on a bog-standard inland course in suburbia and they would be fine; they just don't work at Tenby.

The daft thing is that there is room for at least two holes on the linksland by the clubhouse now used as a practice area. I'm sure a par 3 could also be squeezed in somewhere out in the dunes to make up the numbers, leaving the farmers' field now used for golf as a decent practice ground...

[Ari Techner]

#6 at Olympia Fields North
#16 at Chicago Golf Club
#1 and #18 at Shoreacres
#18 at Fishers Island
#7 at Prairie Dunes
#1 at Pebble Beach
#18 at SFGC
Pedestrian holes on great courses IMO

I actually like 18 at Shoreacres a lot and think 1 has some merit as well.  
Also a fan of 18 at Fishers island and think that 7 at Prairie Dunes is a great hole.  It's not on the same kind of rolling hilly terrain as some of the rest of the course but it makes you think on all 3 shots (or 2) and the green complex and surrounds are fantastic.  

I would nominate:

16 Oakland Hills South
12 Pine Valley
9 Ballyneal
9 Chicago GC
Definitely agree w those that posted 9 TOC

[Brett_Morrissy]

Are we to accept that inferior means poor, good, pedestrian, or just not great? if you take some of the holes mentioned above, I am sure there would be many golf clubs around the world that may love to have a hole like that as part of their course? So, context is very important, and it seems that it is easy to jump up and down because - to use one of Jud's nominations (17 Bandon Dunes) - it is one of the worst holes at the resort, a surprising assessment, especially as it follows IMO the best. tough act to follow and a tough call IMO.

18 at CPC is the classic one that's often brought up, and is why more than one person has called CPC "the greatest 17 hole course in the world."  

Jim: a small grab from my post after my visit there in 2010 - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45444.0.html

"Late in the day, the pathways thru the Cypress trees took on a ghostly appearance for me, and finally to the biggest surprise of all, the 18th, often derided here, with light fading fast, I was struck by the awesome minefield of giant Cypress that you are asked to thread, just one more completely different challenge thrown at you, just as you thought you could be tested no more,- as I weaved thru these giant Cypress, I was almost expecting them to nod or move, and was immediately reminded of the Easter Island statues, when you join the four large trees on 18 with the copse on the 17th these magnificent trees stand like sentinels guarding this treasured place, defiant to the elements and they show a resilience to the test of time, as the club, course and it’s Architect have done...."

[John Percival]

Ari,
do you mean the new, horribly altered right side/rear of the green 16 OH or the previous version.
And, since there seems to be some very good choices thru this thread, are there some suggestions for improving these holes?
My picks:
   1 Riv - build up green, requires greater accuracy and management
   12 PB - open front, and widen fwy left/short
   5 Wh Str - move tees left and push fwy right 10 yards to soften dogleg. Re-locate green back and left of trees (yeah, in the water). Changes the 2nd shot dynamics (lay-ups)from bail to heroic, yet gives the go-for-it bomb more runway (and more enticement?)