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Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2013, 04:39:24 PM »
I'm waiting to see the newest version of Doral Blue.  Used to love the course, did not enjoy it since the turn of the century.  
Loved being there in April, on the 14th the hotel was $200 and GF $150; on the 15th the hotel was $79 and golf, $37.50.  Now they
have the Southern American business and rates stay up.

As someone pointed out, the only reason for higher golf fees is to improve the experience for those able to fork out the $500.  Golf is a great bargain even at that price, they get $375 for a Flames ticket!
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2013, 03:13:50 AM »
Jon - the proof is in the pudding. Wrong about what... the reason for the increases? Check the rate at TOC, for example, and how much it changed just two or three years after KB opened.

With the TOC example you are spot on for the GF but locals can still get very cheap season tickets.

Jon

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2013, 10:39:47 AM »
Jon - the proof is in the pudding. Wrong about what... the reason for the increases? Check the rate at TOC, for example, and how much it changed just two or three years after KB opened.

With the TOC example you are spot on for the GF but locals can still get very cheap season tickets.

Jon

Granted... but, we're talking green fees here, yes? I have been shocked at the rate of increase in visitor and guest fees at clubs, even in the face of an economic slowdown. Too many clubs are run using the same economic model as our governments.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #78 on: December 23, 2013, 11:53:32 AM »
Mike the green fees at Deal have risen 50% over the past 4/5 years which is hefty even in a boom. Revenue has remained reasonably even but the course is less busy and profitability has risen considerably. Obviously there are lots of different reasons for that but investment on the course appears to have paid off otherwise the cost/value ratio would have reduced income.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 02:14:25 PM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #79 on: December 23, 2013, 01:29:07 PM »
Sean,

Don't know golf in GB&I very well, but have to think Castle Stuart is in your red zone.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2013, 01:35:22 PM »
GJ

Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns hit the Red Zone before I ever saw them!  Such is the state of Scottish golf.  I still haven't played either one. Though I can see perhaps playing Castle Stuart only because of its convenient location to the airport.  I think I would roll the dice with it over playing Nairn again, but Moray would be my first phone call.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 03:07:55 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2013, 02:26:16 PM »
Sean we were in Inverness in Sept and Castle Stuart didn't even hit the radar in our groups venue discussions. Boat of Garten, Brora and Royal Dornoch together were probably cheaper than a round at CS. That must say something if members of premium south east clubs don't even consider it. There are only so many rich Americans to spread around.
Cave Nil Vino

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #82 on: December 24, 2013, 05:54:23 AM »
Sean we were in Inverness in Sept and Castle Stuart didn't even hit the radar in our groups venue discussions. Boat of Garten, Brora and Royal Dornoch together were probably cheaper than a round at CS. That must say something if members of premium south east clubs don't even consider it. There are only so many rich Americans to spread around.

Yet as a local golfer at £50 it is good value IMO. Dornoch £130, Brora £55, BoG £35?

Jon

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #83 on: December 24, 2013, 06:32:52 AM »
Sean we were in Inverness in Sept and Castle Stuart didn't even hit the radar in our groups venue discussions. Boat of Garten, Brora and Royal Dornoch together were probably cheaper than a round at CS. That must say something if members of premium south east clubs don't even consider it. There are only so many rich Americans to spread around.
Yet as a local golfer at £50 it is good value IMO. Dornoch £130, Brora £55, BoG £35?
Jon
Well said both of you. Pricing is one of the reasons, together with the likes of conditioning, appropriate tees, organisation etc, why I usually attempt to conduct golf trips in conjunction with Open Comps or Golf Weeks. www.golfempire.co.uk, is a very useful website. Otherwise it's usually shoulder season or off-season trips or trying to take in a twilight greenfee. Not always achievable but usually worth considering and investigating.

All the best and Happy Christmas.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 07:12:17 AM by Thomas Dai »

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #84 on: December 25, 2013, 05:52:22 AM »
Jon - unless I assume the identity of my mate in Inverness that option isn't open to me, I've also been a vociferous opponent of dual pricing especially in Australia and New Zealand. 
Cave Nil Vino

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #85 on: December 25, 2013, 09:32:14 AM »
Mark,

I think it is good for a business to give back to the community it lives in. Especially in the tourist industry the good will of the locals is vital and so I think that it is good business to look after locals. The good thing up here in Inverness is that for CS and the locals it is a win-win situation. I was only saying that £50 was a very good deal for locals. Now you can agree or not. I do not think that £130 is good value regardless of the course yet you do.

Jon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #86 on: December 25, 2013, 09:53:41 AM »
Sean we were in Inverness in Sept and Castle Stuart didn't even hit the radar in our groups venue discussions. Boat of Garten, Brora and Royal Dornoch together were probably cheaper than a round at CS. That must say something if members of premium south east clubs don't even consider it. There are only so many rich Americans to spread around.

Yet as a local golfer at £50 it is good value IMO. Dornoch £130, Brora £55, BoG £35?

Jon

Jon:

This may be true, but the rationale is far different.

Castle Stuart is a privately owned daily fee course.  There are no memberships available, as far as I know, or at least the members don't have any say in operations.  They are offering a good value rate for the locals to try and stay good neighbours.

The other clubs you cited are all member-owned clubs.  I think their attitude toward locals is, if you want a good deal, you should join the club -- otherwise you are just a visitor the same as everyone else.  [However, I'm surprised they don't have some sort of inter-club competition organized so that neighbours can come and play once a year.]

Perhaps that's harsh, but it's a pretty common attitude.  I've been welcomed as a visitor at clubs all around the world, but the private clubs nearest to my home, such as Stanwich, were totally unresponsive to a letter asking to come and walk the course, coming from the next town over.  In the UK, it was ever thus.  When I caddied at St. Andrews in 1982, there were lots of members of UK clubs who were willing to pay the visitor rate of £15 -- but now that it's gone to £150 or more, most of the visitors are from overseas.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #87 on: December 25, 2013, 12:47:54 PM »
Tom,

what you say is correct. Dornoch is a really good course kept in great condition. The fact that I do not think it is worth £110 (was the single round fee in 2013 which I erroneously put at £130) is because I do not believe any course is worth that figure. For me around the £80 should be top rate.

As you say, when the fees are lower then UK players will play but tend to stop when fees are put too high leaving overseas players as the main source of income. Am I the only one who thinks this is a dangerous strategy? Apparently so :-[

Locals tend to play the open events which offer very good value.

Jon

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially
« Reply #88 on: December 25, 2013, 02:16:07 PM »
Jon we were part hosted at RD which kept the number reasonable. I agree CS do a good deal for locals but in an area where golf memberships are cheap even £50 at CS wouldn't be a monthly event.

CS is £180 a round so even at full price RD, Boat and Brora only comes to £200.

What do the trade think of the PGA/BIGGA rate of £75?
Cave Nil Vino