[Mark Pearce]

David,

What you say about Woodhall applies for me at Noordwijkse.  I had such high expectations, especially after playing de Pan the Saturday before.    It's such a good piece of land, though, that it's still excellent, just not what it could be.  I wouldn't argue with your 60% number.

[Adam Lawrence]

I don't think anyone hates Noordwijk. It would be hard to do so - it's a very good golf course indeed. Disappointment arises because (a) various rankings have, in my opinion, somewhat overrated it, presenting it as clearly the best course in the Netherlands and one of the top two or three in Europe; (b) the greens and surrounds are, in general, less interesting than one might expect on a course of that stature; and (c) the property is so stunning it is hard, even while enjoying what's there, not to wonder what might have been achieved on that site. Pennink was a decent architect, but oh, if only the piece of land the course now sits on had been made available to Colt back in the day (and, of course, the course had survived the war).

[Mark Pearce]

Thanks, Adam, a perfect summary of my thoughts.

[Adam Lawrence]

Re. La Moye, I didn't take any pictures while I was there as my camera was misbehaving, but Tim Lobb and Marcus Lovelock, who I was playing with, took a few. Tim put them on his Facebook page, which is public, so hopefully the link below will work.

It's a cliff top links, a bit like Pennard in that respect I guess. Braid mostly responsible for today's course, but Hawtree has been working there a fair bit recently. Essentially the course is in three sections - holes one to seven move around a plateau to the southwest of the clubhouse, working their way to and from the cliffs a couple of times. The eighth to thirteenth are more inland, and then from the fourteenth home you are back towards the cliffs, but this time to the north of the clubhouse. Some very good par threes - the fourteenth is probably the pick of the bunch - and the run home is really pretty spectacular. The one hole I really didn't like was the second, a hard dogleg right par five. But I think it might be more interesting on repeat play.

Here's a picture of Marcus pitching to the fifteenth green:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151738305263132&set=oa.10151626580119250&type=3&theater

[David Davis]

Sean,

The thing is just straight up the course is too tough for most people's liking, even strong players as it's always windy and there is too low a margin for error I suppose. I don't see toughness as being the main draw personally. However, take a really good player who's worst round is 75 on average and he shoots 85 and loses a few balls in the process then he might not love the course but if he's a competitive masochist will embrace the challenge and want several go's at redeeming himself. For the guy that doesn't miss a fairway, like you Sean I think you will love the course when you make it over to play. Although even from the fairway approaching most of the greens is a huge challenge as so many are raised and right now the greens surrounds are too soft to get any breaks (something that desperately needs to be improved). The course for non-single hcp'ers is just WAY too hard, although that being said, right now when it's colder the course is a joy to play as you don't lose every ball that misses the fairway which is how it should be. It's already hard enough without losing balls.

Mark,

How's does my comments about Woodhall apply for you at Noordwijkse? Woodhall was playing the same shot all day, I don't think you mean that about Noordwijkse? Or do you just mean in terms of expectation? Must be the latter.

Adam,

My opinion, which I had well before I was a member at Noordwijkse, is that it's by far the best course in NL when all things are taken into consideration.

I think the best architecture goes hands down to De Pan, in terms purely of the routing, and what they did with a small property, it's a quick and easy walk and a great members club for all levels of players. I miss the challenge there and a few of the holes were really messed up by Hawtree. The property and the rest are not enough for me to be too excited about when comparing it to links courses which is why it could never be rated above Kennemer, Royal Hague or Noordwijkse even given the superior architecture work.

Royal Hague as you know was maybe never even visited by Colt but done by Allison. I do love the property but am not blown away by how dramatic the routing is in terms of going over all the dunes. Also the 18th holes is a decent hole but completely out of character. I think this year it was perhaps in it's best shape yet and I really enjoyed the greens and surrounds much more although a few are still questionably crowned. Still the total picture is too inconsistent for me to put it on top in NL.

I'm not a Pennink fan and don't see him as having been a great architect and agree that Colt being given the same property would of probably hit a home run with it. However, I'm sure Martin Ebert would also hit a home run if we were to listen to his advice completely and be allowed by the environmental organizations to follow it to a tee. I just see the course being significantly better all things considered. On top of that there is a lot of room for improvement, it's an unfinished diamond.

I believe knowing the courses as well as I do I can make a pretty strong argument to back my opinion which certainly doesn't mean I disagree with anyone's points here and even take them to heart.

[Mark Pearce]

David,

I think it's clear enough what I meant in my previous post.

As to courses in Holland, I missed Kennemer, sadly, but in my opinion both de Panand Royal Hague are better courses than Noordwijkse.  There's plenty of challenge at de Pan, I simply don't understand what you mean by missing the challenge there, unless what you want is beat you up difficulty.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Well, I love Noordwijkse and would play it every day, if I could. But they'd never accept me as a member, because they don't want average players bitching about playability and fun

I actually thought Noordwijkse was a far easier course than Royal Hague, when you consider the shot values. Sure, your score will be worse because of more lost balls, but score has little to do with challenge (in this case, not generally). So I was able to thoroughly enjoy my rounds at Noordwijkse, I had enough lake balls in my bag, so if that's the only worry...

Ulrich

[David Davis]

David,

I think it's clear enough what I meant in my previous post.

As to courses in Holland, I missed Kennemer, sadly, but in my opinion both de Panand Royal Hague are better courses than Noordwijkse.  There's plenty of challenge at de Pan, I simply don't understand what you mean by missing the challenge there, unless what you want is beat you up difficulty.

Mark,

I don't need to get beaten up all the time but I played de Pan twice this year and shot 73 and 74 respectively and my hcp is 8.4 right now. I don't mind having my ego inflated a little but in golf but I wouldn't want that to happen all the time I don't think. I guess you could say well you're not shooting 65 every time but I just don't find that many of the shots testing and making me think hard which club I should play or having to really consider a strategy for the holes. Since there is rarely wind there as well I don't feel much challenge off the tees although I don't play it very aggressively either but I'm not tempted to play it more aggressively or bite off more than I can chew anywhere. To me this adds up to lacking challenge.

Maybe you think I see this wrong, but let's not forget Pine Valley is the unanimous #1 in the world with a slope of 155. Someplace between the two is ideal for my liking.

[David Davis]

somehow it double posted...

[ward peyronnin]

MOST SURPRISING Swinkelsche.  I agree with many that this course will come into it's own and to me is an expression of the artistic muse Frank Pont seems to follow in his work. He was may be more of an in the closet artist than he was a GCA. The flaws I see are that sometimes this produces a certain fussiness on some of the holes and over complication as well but it is a fun course to . The Dormie Club is simply a majestic layout with everything you could ask for ona golf course

MOST DISAPPOINTING: Tobacco Road This is a course that for me holds negative allure if there is such a thing. I find it malicious in the positioning of the blind alleys and the subsequent consequences for well struck and seemingly considered shots AND the greens were the worst I have played on in years. Their current management should be flailed. I too find Nordjwisk well below its esteemed place. Some greens and surrounds lacked interested probably because they relied perched siting that produced needlessly penal results and one had to the leaf rule for balls missing after lady members pushed their way thru one's foursome. Royal Ostend, recently butchered by Martin Hawtree, is to awful to waste comment on.

MOST SURPRISING SUBSEQUENT LOOK Mid Pines While I still like the course and probably need to get used to the new look I always thought of that place as an  intimate, feminine encounter and the expansive( maybe overly for the scale of the place) waste areas that also lap up to the greens have wiped that away. I also had the impression that some of the Ross greens were not as they were when I played the place before thought they may be closer to the originals

FAVOURITE LINKS I have to go with NGLA with Royal Hague in their too. Deal is very good but the summer/British Am rough and the 5 hour round simply was too much to overcome

FAVOURITE INLAND COURSE Hardelot Simply a magical place

BEST AFFORDABLE GOLF : Sequatchie Valley GC How much more affordable can one get than FREE. Pasture golf and a really well done remodel by King and Collins Golf Design. Fairway Ripples, waste /blowout bunkering, engaging green movement it had all thos elements so many of us seek. Thank You Eric Smith.

I WILL ONLY COMMENT FURTHER ON THE BEST COURSE which no surprise is NGLA. Watching Reese Pyugh putt a 25 foot putt 20 yards off the green on #3 and those walker Cuppers try to (unseccessfully ) muscle the Redan....FUN

[Scott Warren]

David Davis,

Martin Ebert is also the consulting architect at my club, so I'm not bashing him here, but you state confidently that if given carte blanche at Noordwiske he would knock it out of the park.

On what basis?
What's the best course he's designed from scratch or totally redesigned (genuine Q - I wouldn't have a clue)?

[Michael Goldstein]

DD:  Have just seen this thread.  

I absolutely don't hate Noordvisjke. It's definitely not the worst course I played in 2013, indeed it's one of the better ones, but the reason I put it in that category is because, unlikely many other courses, it could be much better! I think Adam encapsulated my thoughts well in reply #52.  

Excuse the thread-jack.

PS - Scott, McKenzie & Ebert have done around 5 new courses, of which I suppose you would count Askernish as one.

[John Mayhugh]

David,
I haven't seen a single post where someone talked about hating Noordwijkse.  Not loving is not the same thing as hating.

To me, it seems that you:
1.  Value difficulty more than most of the other people discussing the course.
2.  Feel that the reason people don't love the course is its difficulty.

Maybe I have it wrong, but that's the impression I get.  

I did not think that Noordwijkse was significantly more difficult than Royal Hague. I just found it was not nearly as compelling.  Adam offered a good explanation with these points:   the greens and surrounds are, in general, less interesting than one might expect on a course of that stature; and (c) the property is so stunning it is hard, even while enjoying what's there, not to wonder what might have been achieved on that site.  

[Adam Lawrence]

Here's a couple more La Moye images, courtesy of my friend Marcus Lovelock.

View from ninth tee:


Green (can't quite remember which) with views over cliffs:

[Jon Wiggett]

Well, I have not played much golf this year so I will spread this over the last couple of years.

MOST SURPISING COURSE: Must be Wick. Went up there expecting a run of the mill links but found a time capsule. Wick is no fuss, fun golf in its most traditional form. Lots of quirk and challenge with none of the commercial rubbish found at so many of our courses these days. Welcomming members and good value.   RUNNER -UP: Portmahomack. For much the same reasons as Wick. Great little links 9 holer.

MOST DISAPPOINTING COURSE: Hopeman. What a setting on the cliff tops over looking the Moray firth. RUNNER-UP:  Hopeman has a great piece of land and could/should be one of the most talked about courses in the Highlands but the course misses just about every opportunity the land offers

BEST NEW PLAY COURSE: Spey Bay. Played this during the time it was still officially closed. Course in great nick with just the one green keeper. Lovely layout that looked a lot harder than it played. Plenty of history and worth the 90 minute drive.  RUNNER-UP: Bonar Bridge. Great views and a solid 9 hole course. I played it mid summer when the course was playing firm and fast. I did not see another soul for the three hours I was up there.

MOST SURPRISING SECOND (third or fourth!) LOOK COURSE: Moray Old. Played this course about 5 times now and it is growing on me. I do wonder if there is not a world beater however if the Old was to stay sea side of the road RUNNER-UP: Boat of Garten  this Braid course has it all and just gets better each time you play. The only let down is the 1st which is so bad that it enhances the round if you skip it.
FAVOURITE LINKS not called St Enodoc  Well this is a tough one. Hands down Kilspindie. I always enjoy playing here immensely.

FAVOURITE INLAND COURSE: Alwoodley!  RUNNER -UP: Ganton.    

BEST AFFORDABLE COURSE: Portmahomack which at £20 for the day is real Value for money  RUNNER-UP: Brahan (but I would say that wouldn’t I)

BEST MODERATELY PRICED COURSE: Moray Old. I do not remember how much the GF was but it is under £50. Great links golf.  

BEST COURSE:  TOC  RUNNER-UP: Castle Stuart. Like TOC a great course in immaculate condition which offers an interesting challenge without being too hard for higher handicappers

[Mark Pearce]

Jon,

Hopeman must have been very disappointing indeed to finish first and second in that category!

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

Hopeman must have been very disappointing indeed to finish first and second in that category!

Mark, it is the only course I have played in the last few years where I have looked at it and thought wow what an opportunity missed.

Jon

[David Davis]

David Davis,

Martin Ebert is also the consulting architect at my club, so I'm not bashing him here, but you state confidently that if given carte blanche at Noordwiske he would knock it out of the park.

On what basis?
What's the best course he's designed from scratch or totally redesigned (genuine Q - I wouldn't have a clue)?

Scott,

Do you know them? Have you ever talked with them when they were at your course? I consider Martin a good friend, although they were advising Noordwijkse long before I was a member. I know most of his ideas for Noordwijkse and honestly agree with every single one of them. Most are very possible to accomplish and would greatly improve the course. There are various reasons these things have not been done, all of which are honestly very frustrating for me so anytime you have a couple hours and want to hear me bitch about details please come by for a game on one of your trips to the UK.

On top of that as you know Mackenzie & Ebert renovate and update 6 of the courses on the Open Rota. In my opinion, they should be doing them all and definitely should of done the Old Course renovations.

As for new work, they have done many courses while working with Donald Steele and a few courses while having their own firm. I would say that like many other architects out there they have not had that great opportunity just yet but I sure would of rather seen them doing Trumps International for example. I venture to say we would of ended up with a much better end result.

Here you can see what the've done for yourself. As Michael said Askernish is one of them but I've unfortunately not seen it myself yet despite several invites.

http://www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk/Courselist.html

They will get their chance to stand under the big spotlight with a new design and I look forward to that happening sooner rather than later.

[Scott Warren]

Askernish is Mackenzie & Ebert? You're lucky Melvyn is no longer here. But Doak is and I know he has had a hand. As has Gordon Irvine. Big call attributing it to M&E.

Did I read over the part of your post where you cited great work Ebert has done (not could potentially do) to underpin your claim?

Why should M&E have done the TOC changes? Did TOC even need changes?

No slight on Martin, whose suggestions for Deal I largely like. But knocking it out of the park even on linksland takes some doing (or else we'd all be doing it).

[jeffwarne]

I had an outstanding year for golf which by my reckoning included playing no less than 13 great courses, many of which are inland.  

MOST SURPISING COURSE:  Sacred 9 - I was taken aback at how good this design is - and I mean design in the sense archies would use the term.  Superb use of the features which when combined with some very good man-made stuff generates a great course from non-descript land.  RUNNER -UP: Carnoustie Burnside is just a pleasure to play and a reminder of how simple the game can be.

MOST DISAPPOINTING COURSE: Royal Ashdown Forest, far too much bland architecture getting away with being called great because the course is bunkerless.  The standard of this type is Kington and RAF doesn't measure up.  RUNNER-UP: While imo still great, but far short of what could have been created, Trump Aberdeen.

BEST NEW PLAY COURSE: Walton Heath Old really impressed me; no nonsense golf with loads of cool features.  RUNNER-UP: Dormie Club has incredible diversity!

MOST SURPRISING SECOND (third or fourth!) LOOK COURSE: Several revisits impressed me, but I think none more so than Alwoodley. I reckon the balance of challenge, interest, beauty and joy to be alive factor is about spot on.  RUNNER-UP: Old Town's renovation work has made a great course awesome.  SECOND RUNNER-UP: Mid Pines completely charmed me.  I liked the course, but the waste area work has transformed the design.  THIRD RUNNER-UP: I think the Deal light bulb finally switched on for me.  I still find it too difficult in a decent wind, but there is much to applaud.  

FAVOURITE LINKS not called St Enodoc  : This is a three-way tie between Cruden Bay, Carnoustie Burnside and Perranporth. I guess if forced to pick one it would be Perranporth because it is outrageous.  I played with a guy who doesn't see much golf outside his club and the dumfounded look on his face still resonates with me.

FAVOURITE INLAND COURSE: Kington!  RUNNER -UP: Old Town.    

BEST AFFORDABLE COURSE: By affordable I mean under £20.  Golf really has become stupidly expensive and Reddish Vale is a reminder that golf can be affordable, accessible and fun.  RUNNER-UP: Cleeve Cloud; golfers will travel a long way to get better, more interesting and prettier golf for ~$30.

BEST MODERATELY PRICED COURSE: By moderate I mean under £50 (~$75) and no member invitation or other special circumstances involved. When searching my notes I was surprised and disappointed to find so few candidates.  I guess I shall have to rectify this next year.  In any case, despite costing less than £30, Kington is the clear winner.    

BEST COURSE: Well, I think Deal is the undoubted winner this year. RUNNER-UP: In a much tighter choice, Alwoodley just beats out Old Town and Walton Heath Old.  Three of the four candidates are inland courses - I must be getting old.  Both Deal and Alwoodley proved to be most impressive this year and I hope to see them again in 2014.


I would like to see the awards of others so crank em' out.  

Ciao

MOST SURPRISING COURSE.
2014 was a year I did not play a lot of new courses, but on a March trip that included GCA faves The Sacred Nine, Hunstanton, Brancaster, Woodhall Spa, I'd have to say Seacroft was the most pleasant surprise of the bunch, mainly based on no expectations whatsoever.
A good mix of playability (increasingly rare on links courses lately) interest, fun, and variety.
A very good course I had not heard of.
Runnerup: Knickerbocker in NJ in qualifier for the Met Open- interesting layout with a tempting closing stretch of dogleg holes

Most disappointing course
Woodhall Spa, though it must be said I do like the course, just had high expectations.
Previous pictures had me drooling and though I really liked the front nine a lot, felt like I played the same hole 4-5 times on the back.
A great experience however as i was able to pick Mark Rowlinson's brain up close and personal, rather than over the internet as I have many times.
Runnerup:Augusta CC-along with its neighbor, probably the only GCA loved course that's ADDING trees (to its detriment) and also found the softness of its green surrounds very offputting, compared to say Palmetto and other local courses played at similar times.

Best new play
Brancaster
both courses at Streamsong

Most surprising second look
Aiken Golf Club (5th look)
runnerup:
Old Westbury-MET Open site
Century -MET PGA site

Favorite Links:
Brancaster
Hunstanton
Seacroft

Favorite Inland course
Glen Head:classic unheralded course on Long Island-fascinating, undulating and tilted greens, along with an interesting, rolling layout.
winning this year's Long Island Senior Open there didn't hurt, and have had past tournament success there.
runnerup;Southampton,
second runnerup Goat Hill

Best affordable course
Aiken Golf Club
Goat Hill

Best moderately priced
Seacroft

Best Course
Merion-high expectations that were met
Maidstone
Brancaster

[ward peyronnin]

Jeff

May I ask you what for you made Maidstone a best course.

I replayed it this year after a long time and liked what C&C did. I played here very early in my GCA experience and was smitten but now some of the holes just don't complete the ensemble : 4, 11,12 ,15 while good just don't rank that high for me but I fear I am missing something. Thanks for sharing

[jeffwarne]

Jeff

May I ask you what for you made Maidstone a best course.

I replayed it this year after a long time and liked what C&C did. I played here very early in my GCA experience and was smitten but now some of the holes just don't complete the ensemble : 4, 11,12 ,15 while good just don't rank that high for me but I fear I am missing something. Thanks for sharing

Ward,
Mainly because I just didn't play as many different great courses in 2013, having played a lot of events.
I liked Maidstone a lot before the renovation.
can't say the renovation really changed my opinion.
Didn't play NGLA or Shinny this year.
Maybe Hunstanton or the Sacred Nine could be mentioned, but on balance I prefer Maidstone, though truth be told, Southampton conditioning has gotten so good (firm) that or Palmetto might be the real runnerup to Merion for best course played in 2013.

[Sean_A]

MOST DISAPPOINTING: Tobacco Road This is a course that for me holds negative allure if there is such a thing. I find it malicious in the positioning of the blind alleys and the subsequent consequences for well struck and seemingly considered shots

Chez Wardo, its good to know The Road is screwing with people.

Ciao

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

BEST NEW PLAY COURSE: Chicago GC really impressed me; first CBM course, and the scale of this property is incredible.

MOST SURPRISING SECOND (third or fourth!) LOOK COURSE: The Olympic Club (Ocean) which I didn’t really like post-US Open redo.  But it is what it is, and after coming to terms with that, it’s actually quite a fun day of golf.    

FAVOURITE LINKS not called St Enodoc  : Prestwick was all that it was supposed to be.  In a trip that included most of the heavy hitters (excluding TOC and Carnoustie), this was the favorite.  RUNNER-UP: Muirfield was awesome.  I was not. Would probably say this was the “best” links course, while Prestwick was the most fun… ergo my favorite.

FAVOURITE INLAND COURSE: Chicago GC! RUNNER -UP: Los Angeles CC (North)

BEST AFFORDABLE COURSE: By affordable I mean under £20.  Still Rustic Canyon

BEST MODERATELY PRICED COURSE: Not sure I played anything worth noting.

BEST COURSE: Chicago GC! RUNNER -UP: Muirfield

MOST DISAPPOINTING COURSE: Quail Hollow.  It was just… too much.  Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great place w/ great people.  But, not my cup-o-tea

[ward peyronnin]

Wayne

How serendipitous
Don't seem to be able to view any profiles at all. Am coming out for the Western Intercollegiate at Pasatiempo

Would you mind contacting me at Wardp@peyronnin.com. Sorry for pedestrian use of GCA all

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