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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Is there a
« on: December 21, 2013, 01:43:33 PM »
... hole that looks so much like another hole on the same course that you think you must have gotten turned around and gone the wrong way when you left the previous green?

 ::)
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Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2013, 01:57:28 PM »
Off hand, numbers 9 and 18, both par 5s, at The Peninsula Club in Cornelius, NC.  Rees Jones & Greg Muirhead, 1990.   http://www.thepeninsulaclub.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=375500&ssid=290837&vnf=1

I'll add 6 and 13, also par 5s, at Rolling Hills Country Club, Monroe, NC.  George Cobb, 1963.  http://www.rollinghillscountryclub.org/GOLF/Course%20Tour.aspx
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 02:08:45 PM by Carl Johnson »
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Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2013, 05:53:04 PM »
Not sure you are 100% serious with this thread, but I have had a somewhat similar experience......I was playing a course in Ky (Links at Novadell) and the course started out pretty good, then there is stretch of rather questionable holes on the back. I swore I had played the holes before. Then I recall a course in Owensboro, Ky called the Summit with a similar set of holes. Lo and behold they were designed by the same guy. Proved to me that templates should only be used if they are good.
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Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2013, 11:50:25 PM »
Jason,

Firstly, The European Club. 9th and 18th. Two long par fours that play over the same land, flat to the DZ and then drops down to the green. Walk onto the wrong tee and you wouldn't know until you got to the green.



Now the old (thankfully NLE!) 1st and 4th holes at my home course, Bonnie Doon. Two short par fives that like the Euro Club holes they played to very similar lengths over almost identical pieces of land with copycat bunkering schemes.

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JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 12:12:52 AM »
Quote from: Jason Thurman on December 21, 2013, 01:43:33 PM
... hole that looks so much like another hole on the same course that you think you must have gotten turned around and gone the wrong way when you left the previous green?

 ::)

Yes sir and it's right up the road from you. The 9th and 18th at NCR South. I've only played the course once, but unless I'm out of my mind, you're seeing the 18th hole on the left, closely paralleled by the 9th hole on the right.



The holes aren't actually completely alike. As I recall, the approach to the 9th is more uphill, and obviously the dogleg is sharper.

But here is what I can't figure out. The 8th green is at the very bottom left of the picture. The 17th green is to the right (not sure why it's discolored in the picture.

Why aren't the 9th and 18th just flipped so that 8 connects to what is currently the 18th but could be the 9th? Same for the current 17/9?

I'm almost sure I'm remembering the course correctly. They're holes of similar length and difficulty. Is there a story behind why 9 and 18 are the way they are?
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David Whitmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 07:44:32 AM »
Quote from: JLahrman on December 23, 2013, 12:12:52 AM

Yes sir and it's right up the road from you. The 9th and 18th at NCR South. I've only played the course once, but unless I'm out of my mind, you're seeing the 18th hole on the left, closely paralleled by the 9th hole on the right.



The holes aren't actually completely alike. As I recall, the approach to the 9th is more uphill, and obviously the dogleg is sharper.

But here is what I can't figure out. The 8th green is at the very bottom left of the picture. The 17th green is to the right (not sure why it's discolored in the picture.

Why aren't the 9th and 18th just flipped so that 8 connects to what is currently the 18th but could be the 9th? Same for the current 17/9?

I'm almost sure I'm remembering the course correctly. They're holes of similar length and difficulty. Is there a story behind why 9 and 18 are the way they are?
[/quote]

You are correct about the hole sequence...the 8th green is much closer to the 18th tee, while the 17th green is closer to the 9th tee. Not sure why it is that way, but in the U.S. Senior Open a few years ago, the 9th and 18th holes were flip-flopped.

The 9th hole is a bit longer and plays over a little valley to the green. The 18th approach is a touch uphill, but no valley to go over...the land very gently slopes that way.
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Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 07:59:01 AM »
    The 10th and 16th at Sunnybrook;
    The 9th and 18th at Philmont;
    The 2nd and 18th at Cricket Wissahicken (with13 being a 5 par of the same);
    The 12th and 15th at Cricket Wissahicken;
    The 9th and 18th at White Manor.

    All are poor architecture IMHO, by definition.
  
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 08:57:10 AM »
Jim,

Regarding the Philmont nomination; the 9th is a 600 yard par 5 with about 90 degrees of gradual left to right turn while the 18th is about 320 yards and straight with a severe left to right slope...
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D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2013, 09:36:10 AM »
The two courses i was thinking of in Philly were:

white manor already mentioned by Jim Coleman

and Springhaven #2 & #8
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JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2013, 09:39:38 AM »
Quote from: David Whitmer on December 23, 2013, 07:44:32 AM
You are correct about the hole sequence...the 8th green is much closer to the 18th tee, while the 17th green is closer to the 9th tee. Not sure why it is that way, but in the U.S. Senior Open a few years ago, the 9th and 18th holes were flip-flopped.

The 9th hole is a bit longer and plays over a little valley to the green. The 18th approach is a touch uphill, but no valley to go over...the land very gently slopes that way.

For a big tournament like that, I'm sure it makes sense to switch the holes from a crowd and player traffic perspective. I just can't figure out why they're not switched for everyday play.
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Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2013, 01:47:23 PM »
Quote from: Jim_Coleman on December 23, 2013, 07:59:01 AM
   The 10th and 16th at Sunnybrook;
    The 9th and 18th at Philmont;
    The 2nd and 18th at Cricket Wissahicken (with13 being a 5 par of the same);
    The 12th and 15th at Cricket Wissahicken;
    The 9th and 18th at White Manor.

    All are poor architecture IMHO, by definition.
  

2 and 18 at Wissahickon are alike?!??  

Number two is a driver/3wd followed by a short iron to an elevated green with front to back slope.  
Number 18 is a daunting long par 4 with a right to left sloping fairway hitting down the hill to a green that slopes back left to front right.
I'm struggling to compare the two holes at all.  And 13 is a par 4 by the way..

12 is a par 5 with a cape tee shot over a quarry making its way up a hill to a green pitched back to front.  15 is a redan'esque par 3.

Please help me out here.  I don't see any poor architecture associated with any of these holes....

Mark

  
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Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2013, 03:58:56 PM »
   Sorry Jim, of course 18 and 9 at Philmont aren't close.  My mistake  I meant 10 and 18, only in reverse.
   Mark: As for 2 and 18 at Wissahicken, my mistake again.  I meant Militia Hill.  They start and end at the same place and the second shots look identical, although 2 is shorter than 18. Same with the shot to the green on 13.  I was also talking about 12 and 15 at Militia Hill, not Wissahicken.  I find any course that has two tees and two greens that start and finish in pretty much the same place usually to be uninspired.  The 4th and 7th at Wissahicken could suffer from this flaw, but the bunkering saves them.
   I apologize for mixing the courses up.  I always refer to them as old and new.  Happy holidays.
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Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2013, 04:06:47 PM »
People sometimes say it about 4 and 13 at Kingston Heath. They run in the same direction, are similar length par fours, bunkered on the left of the drive with trees on the right, and their greens are bunkered front right and mid left. I know several members who wish for greater differentiation between the two holes. Thankfully, they have both been left well enough alone :)
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