All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall

[Duncan Cheslett]

I don't think really anyone has done anything wrong other than getting caught up in death spiral by the 'first set of struggling clubs' that decide to discount their price, from that point this is what happens, each club cuts each other by a £1 until the price is ratshit. The high users still see value the lighter users chose to golf a cheaper way, unfortunately it usually leads to these golfers playing less and less possibly even quitting the game.

What is happened and is continuing is easy for me to see as an operator and looking at the stats and patterns of play. I think the pattern Duncan brought up with 330 members and no space on a weekend is a likely future pattern for others.

I also think weather has played apart and I would say the weather of 2016 will see 1% quit their membership (5 or 6 at most clubs) those people will be fed up and maybe in the 6 or 7 weekends they have now not golfed, might have enjoyed going to watch football, fished, cycled or started on some home improvement or other hobby.

I agree absolutely with your analysis, Adrian.

20 years ago virtually all golf clubs had full memberships - a waiting list even - and charged a hefty joining fee. Golfers who were not members of a club generally played at munis or private pay and play courses. I well remember the long queues every weekend at a local shitty 9 holer that a farmer dug out of his land one summer and  opened up as a golf course at a tenner a round. He made a killing for about ten years through the 1990s.

My nearest muni, Altrincham Golf Course (an original 18 hole MacKenzie by the way) was difficult to get on. You had to phone a week in advance to secure a tee time not just at weekends but mid-week as well.

The difference today is unbelievable.  The private pay and play has closed leaving just the driving range open, and you can walk up and play at Altrincham pretty well whenever you want. They regularly advertise on TeeOffTimes at £8 per round!

Most private clubs have seen demand for membership collapse and to some extent have become pay and play courses. Stripping out the "elite" clubs I can play from a choice of maybe 300 courses within an hour's drive and never spend more than £25. The average local club is now taking between £50k and £80k per year in green fees and has got into the situation whereby if this income was turned off they would go bust within months. Gone are the days when average clubs could survive quite happily on membership subscriptions alone.

Unfortunately, this has created a species of nomadic golfer who has no intention of joining a golf club. Why pay £1000 a year to play at one course when he can play from a choice of hundreds and, if he shops around, never pay more than £20?  There are thousands of these guys out there forming themselves into ad hoc societies and clubs are now trapped into the death spiral of needing to attract their business in order to keep revenue up. This is simply driving green fees ever lower!

Somehow, clubs have to find a way of selling the benefits of membership to this "lost generation". It will not be easy.

[Sean_A]

Duncan


To attract members clubs need a better product than their neighbours.  For a guy like me, the product at the vast majority of clubs is not worth playing every week either due to design, presentation or conditioning. Bottom line, clubs blew it in the go go days by not banking money for rainy days.  Instead they offered golf which was too cheap when the market was flooded and or wasted money thinking it was an endless well.  Its a pity clubs were so poorly run because jobs are dependent on these bone head committees.   


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

I am not disputing the fact that the market is much tougher than it used to be but lamenting about how hard things are is not going to solve the problem. To survive you have got to identify what the problem is and then offer a product that will help rectify this. At RV I believe Duncan has already seen that part of the solution might be to alter the playing habits a small % of the current membership. Maybe a further part would be to offer a product to get some of the now nomadic golfers to become semi-nomadic basing some of their play at RV during the quieter times.

What RV decides to do is not for me to say but I can say with certainty that to lament about how hard it is these days will get them nowhere.

Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

At RV I believe Duncan has already seen that part of the solution might be to alter the playing habits a small % of the current membership. Maybe a further part would be to offer a product to get some of the now nomadic golfers to become semi-nomadic basing some of their play at RV during the quieter times.

Something like this Jon?



To enlarge click on the image and then the magnifying glass icon.

The idea is to attract the vagabonds to play at least some of their golf at RV and get a proper CONGU handicap. We will run regular qualifiers on Sunday aftrernoons and on Thursday evenings.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I would say that's giving the goods away to cheap and you will be in the toilet with that scheme. £649-£599 it works.


You have either got a good course and you hold your head up. Or price it at ratshit and except your fate.


You only have to do 4 x £99 4 ball deal to equal 1 of those members.


£399 and £10 a round in those times might work.


Everything has to be a balance that one fee/category has some fairness to another fee/category, if you get out of sync, we call that 'making the mix'......you are supply ingredients for someone/a member to give you less and you end up with someone perfectly happy giving you £850 finding he now fits perfectly in your £399 category.


Try and remember this also...if you do half price Tuesdays some Monday players will change their schedule. Your scheme is not so different.

[Sean_A]

Duncan


That scheme only works if your current membership buys into it.  In other words, the current membership can't be tempted to downsize their membership to the cheap option...and many members will thnk it unreasonable that a new member can have the cheap option, but not current members.  Do your member consultation prior to offering the deal.


Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan


That scheme only works if your current membership buys into it.  In other words, the current membership can't be tempted to downsize their membership to the cheap option...and many members will thnk it unreasonable that a new member can have the cheap option, but not current members.  Do your member consultation prior to offering the deal.


Ciao

As I have said before, our membership is overwhelmingly made up of serious competitive golfers who live for Saturday Medals, maybe a Sunday morning fourball, and the Wednesday Section competition. Even our Seniors, who get together on a Tuesday morning, also nearly all play on a Saturday as well - from the back tees.

Existing members would have to be given the opportunity of downscaling, but I've looked through our membership list, and can only identify maybe two guys in their 70s who might possibly be tempted by the Off Peak membership. They both play on their own a lot of the time when the course is quiet, for the exercise as much as anything.  I can't think that any other 7 day members would be prepared to give up their Saturday golf for the sake of a few hundred quid a year. As our current Seniors get older however, I can see the Off Peak deal being an attractive alternative to giving up their membership altogether. The same goes for those for whom a change in financial circumstances makes their full membership unjustifiable.

Adrian, I take your point on pricing. £399 came from the CASC requirement to offer golf for less than £520 pa including equipment and extra fees. Now that it looks like CASC may be history we would probably price the Off Peak or "Vagabond" membership at £499 pa.

There has even been talk of a Vagabond Section, with their own roll-ups and even qualifying competitions.

I reckon we could sell 100 of these memberships without impacting on the playing experience of our existing members one jot. That has got to be an attractive proposition, whether it is at £399 or £499.

I can see this membership also being a very popular starting point for new players who want to learn the game. Back in the day, guys would pay a joining fee and commit to a hefty annual subscription even before they'd learned to swing a club. Those days are not coming back any day soon.

I also envisage offering "Bolt-ons" so that if someone wanted to play with the Seniors on a Tuesday morning or participate in the Sunday morning roll-up at 7.30am they could buy the right at an extra fee of say £200 pa. They could buy the right to play in both for say £300.

The cheapest way to be able to play in all competitions however, would always be the standard 7 day membership. In this way, full members are always going to be getting best value.

As ever, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,

I hope that the deal is a start to reinvigorating the club's membership.

Adrian,

a 'don't change anything and hope it will be alright' line is not going to work I suspect. The new membership does not allow play at premium times hence the lower price. According to Duncan very many of the members play at these premium times because that is when they wish to play. Yes, some may change to a cheaper membership and accept restricted playing times but I would suspect it will be few and they may give this new category the necessary  numbers to quickly create a good section feel that most Seniors, rabbits or ladies sections have thus bonding new members to the club much quicker. Then there are the probable new category members who will upgrade at a later time.

It is a good thing that the club are trying to do something and a sign that they will find a way.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Duncan,

I hope that the deal is a start to reinvigorating the club's membership.

Adrian,

a 'don't change anything and hope it will be alright' line is not going to work I suspect. The new membership does not allow play at premium times hence the lower price. According to Duncan very many of the members play at these premium times because that is when they wish to play. Yes, some may change to a cheaper membership and accept restricted playing times but I would suspect it will be few and they may give this new category the necessary  numbers to quickly create a good section feel that most Seniors, rabbits or ladies sections have thus bonding new members to the club much quicker. Then there are the probable new category members who will upgrade at a later time.

It is a good thing that the club are trying to do something and a sign that they will find a way.

Jon

Jon- Where did I say do nothing???
I think his price is a long way too low. The principle is good.
Duncan - I need to understand your booking sheet more. A good exercise would be to group study of the 330 members into how many rounds they play and there patterns.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I think his price is a long way too low. The principle is good.

The aim is to attract significant numbers of new members without alienating the existing membership.

Of the c.£60k we currently take in green fees a third is members guests (good), a third is societies (good) and a third is "others" - many at heavily discounted rates via TeeOffTimes etc. (very bad!)

I would love to be able to ditch TeeOffTimes completely and take casual bookings solely through our website and the Pro shop. This would elevate us above the dross level of clubs who slug it out at a tenner or fifteen quid a round. Unfortunately over the years we've been dragged into this madness. For the sake of £15-20k income per year we have been demeaning the value of the club. Serious visiting golfers who would happily pay £30-40 for a course of RV's quality are being asked only for £20!!!

As I see it we need to replace this income and more with new memberships. Then we can put up the green fee for the  discerning golfers without worrying about putting off the mercenaries. To attract significant numbers of new members however via the new category, it is going to have to be priced to sell.

Anything over £500 is not going to be attractive enough to bring in sufficient numbers. The tee times available are quite restrictive and few people are going to view the deal as good value at that price.

Below £500 however, and I think we've got a good chance. If we can accommodate 100 "Vagabonds"  without impacting on the existing membership I would rather bring in 100 at £399 than 50 at £499.  Ultimately though, the price will be set by supply and demand.

Maybe price it at £499 with an introductory offer of £399 for a limited time...

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,

if you want to attract a premium greenfee player then you probably need to offer a premium greenfee experience. Look at what the top end proprietary clubs are offering and see what you can do to match. It is the experience that will build the reputation and get players coming back.

Adrian,

all you did was criticise not a jot of constructiveness in the post. Easy to do but not much use. Hence my comment.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Duncan,

if you want to attract a premium greenfee player then you probably need to offer a premium greenfee experience. Look at what the top end proprietary clubs are offering and see what you can do to match. It is the experience that will build the reputation and get players coming back.

Adrian,

all you did was criticise not a jot of constructiveness in the post. Easy to do but not much use. Hence my comment.

Jon

So you made up lies. Duncan I assume wants my honest opinion, I think he priced too low. Think you owe me an apology.

[Duncan Cheslett]

It's honest opinions I'm after, not squabbling!

We run a very lean operation at RV. Our total turnover is less than a £300k, yet we cover costs and make a small surplus while maintaining the course in excellent condition.

Another £50k pa in memberships and/or green fees would revolutionise the finances of the club. How best to get  there  is  what I  am exploring.

[Thomas Dai]

What Govt organisations grudgingly and slowly give back with one hand they will enthusiastically and rapidly grab back with the other?
Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,

if you want to attract a premium greenfee player then you probably need to offer a premium greenfee experience. Look at what the top end proprietary clubs are offering and see what you can do to match. It is the experience that will build the reputation and get players coming back.

Adrian,

all you did was criticise not a jot of constructiveness in the post. Easy to do but not much use. Hence my comment.

Jon

So you made up lies. Duncan I assume wants my honest opinion, I think he priced too low. Think you owe me an apology.

No Adrian, no lies. There were no suggestions by you in your post just criticism. You did not offer a single suggestion as what RV might undertake to help ease their situation in the post I commented on.

Jon