[Ally Mcintosh]

The Doral thread got me thinking… What are the biggest green fee hikes you have seen over the years?.... Ones which go well beyond the inflation rates?

I know I played The Old Course in 1989 for the first time… It was £18… It is now £145…. Carnoustie I played in 1987 for £13…

In more recent times, K-Club rose dramatically over a period of 10 years to its 2006 Ryder Cup peak of €380 before falling down to about €180 rack-rate nowadays…

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ally,

Whenever a U.S Open venue is announced, demand increases and so can green fees.

Sebonack was a perfect example

[Ronald Montesano]

As with our housing prices, things never got so good that they never got so bad:
http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/region-leads-the-nation-in-real-estate-appreciation-20131214

Prices for courses in the Buffalo-Niagara corridor top out at $55 or $60, and that would be Seneca Hickory Stick (Bobby II) in Lewiston, north of the Falls. I could put together a 10-course tour of (if I must use the scale...oh Dread) Doak 5s (maybe a 6 in there) that would not set your wallet back more than $400.

Therefore, this green fee-rise thing resonates with me. Not knowing where economic viability ends and greed begins has the potential to taint the industry.

[Tom_Doak]

The Doral thread got me thinking… What are the biggest green fee hikes you have seen over the years?.... Ones which go well beyond the inflation rates?

I know I played The Old Course in 1989 for the first time… It was £18… It is now £145…. Carnoustie I played in 1987 for £13…

In more recent times, K-Club rose dramatically over a period of 10 years to its 2006 Ryder Cup peak of €380 before falling down to about €180 rack-rate nowadays…

Ally:

When I lived in the UK in 1982-83, all the golf was cheap.  The Old Course was the most expensive course at £15, but most were well below that.  The one I remember most distinctly was Ballybunion -- the green fee was 8 Irish pounds to play ALL DAY.

It was not long afterwards that the clubs figured out if Americans were willing to pay $500 to get there, they'd pay more than £10 to play, and they floated the price of golf.  Now everyone does it.

[Tom_Doak]

Ally,

Whenever a U.S Open venue is announced, demand increases and so can green fees.

Sebonack was a perfect example

Huh?  The guest fees at Sebonack were $500 the day it opened.  And that was if your guest played with you.  How much did they go up because of the Women's Open?

[Jim Tang]

I've always been disappointed to see Bandon's fees for both golf and room go up so dramatically over the years.  While the golf there is world class and it is probably my favorite place to play golf, it has become an expensive trip.

[John Kavanaugh]

If the courses are full it is not the owners fault. The golfers who pay these high prices when less trendy or perfectly conditioned options are available are the cause of the inflation. The true greed lays at the feet of those who post the most pictures on Facebook. You not only harm yourself you hurt those who play just for the love of the game. The vain game ain't cheap, never was.

[Craig Van Egmond]

When Karsten Creek opened around 1995 the green fee was $75.00, which was by far the most expensive public golf course in Oklahoma at that time. They raised the fee to $125.00 the next year because at 11,000 rounds they got too much play. It went up to $175.00 next and then the fee eventually hit $300.00 and has been that way for a number of years.  Apparently that was the point it took to minimize outside play.  

[jeffwarne]

While there has been a dramatic rise in fees in UK and Irish golf fees at the well known courses, there are plenty of excellent, accessible courses at VERY reasonable prices.
In fact, I would even argue that the experiences at these courses is better, and certainly more authentic, and has the added advantages that these courses are not crowded by tourists as no one has a vested interest in sending tourists to play them.
i.e. Dunfanaghy or Portsalon vs. Rosapena Sandy Hills or Ballybunion.
If I'm working off a % basis, I'd rather put you in a 150 euro hotel and 180 golf than a 35 euro b&B and a 40 euro golf course.
Not all do it that way of course, but then there's always the idea of playing it safe as well by sending the tourist to the well known place where he can get the "authentic" American version of the Irish experience. and hang out with other Americans doing the same.

By the way, Doral was $300 in the mid 90's when it was pretty mediocre, so the peak season jump to $450 post Hanse/Trump is hardly surprising, and isn't nearly the % jump other courses have made.
Doral was always about East coast population center convenience, weather in the winter, and South Beach lifestyle, not the quality of the golf.
At least the golf course at Doral has gotten substantially better.as well as the resort-both much needed.
Neither is my cup of tea, but Trump is absolutely the right fit for the place-just not really for your average GCAer who may have more discerning taste, less desire for the Miami nightlife, and a smaller budget

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pinehurst Resort, 1976:  3 days + 2 nights lodging, meals incl., unlimited golf + 1 round on #2 = $110.00 pp

Pebble Beach, 1976:  $25.00.

The 'buying power' of one dollar in 1976 is roughly equal to $4.10 today. PB 'should' cost $102.40 today.    

[Thomas Dai]

While there has been a dramatic rise in fees in UK and Irish golf fees at the well known courses, there are plenty of excellent, accessible courses at VERY reasonable prices.
In fact, I would even argue that the experiences at these courses is better, and certainly more authentic, and has the added advantages that these courses are not crowded by tourists as no one has a vested interest in sending tourists to play them.

Well said Jeff.
ATB

[Jon Wiggett]

If the courses are full it is not the owners fault. The golfers who pay these high prices when less trendy or perfectly conditioned options are available are the cause of the inflation. The true greed lays at the feet of those who post the most pictures on Facebook. You not only harm yourself you hurt those who play just for the love of the game. The vain game ain't cheap, never was.

But the visiting golfers do not force the owners to increase their prices. As the Irish case proves greedy owners putting up prices to muc will pay in the end when the next best place comes along.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ally,

Whenever a U.S Open venue is announced, demand increases and so can green fees.

Sebonack was a perfect example

Huh?  The guest fees at Sebonack were $500 the day it opened. 
And that was if your guest played with you. 
How much did they go up because of the Women's Open?

Tom, you need to get back in the loop.

They added a surcharge, which they continued even AFTER the Open was held.

And, the surcharge was for ACCOMPANIED GUESTS.

I think it was about $ 200 per foursome, but, I'll get the exact number for you

[Patrick_Mucci]

As to Doral, are you morons suggesting that Trump spend millions and then LOWER the green fees in order to recoup his investment, quicker ?

[John Kavanaugh]

If the courses are full it is not the owners fault. The golfers who pay these high prices when less trendy or perfectly conditioned options are available are the cause of the inflation. The true greed lays at the feet of those who post the most pictures on Facebook. You not only harm yourself you hurt those who play just for the love of the game. The vain game ain't cheap, never was.

But the visiting golfers do not force the owners to increase their prices. As the Irish case proves greedy owners putting up prices to muc will pay in the end when the next best place comes along.

Jon

When Mike Keiser raises prices it has very little to do with greed.  If golf at Bandon was $50 per round very few of us would get to play and when we did it would be miserable.  This is the same with any course that allows public play.  The only legal and moral way to discriminate is through price.  Do we really want to enter a lottery for the right to play wherever we choose?  That will only lead to corruption and scalping of tee times where everyone except the corrupt suffer.

[Tom_Doak]

As to Doral, are you morons suggesting that Trump spend millions and then LOWER the green fees in order to recoup his investment, quicker ?

Patrick:

If this is your position, on what basis are you complaining about the guest fees at Sebonack?

[Keith Grande]

I was looking into Pinuhurst region for a spring golf trip.  Besides the Pinehurst fees and lodging, which I expected to be high, other top GCA options in the area seem to have followed suit - Pine Needles, Mid Pines, Dormie Club.  The only affordable options seemed to be Tobacco Road and Southern Pines.  These are all courses I would have on my agenda, however when putting together a package for a group of players, it's hard to justify the cost.  

[Tim Martin]

As to Doral, are you morons suggesting that Trump spend millions and then LOWER the green fees in order to recoup his investment, quicker ?

I don't have any issues with Trump and I applaud him for buying properties and upping his investment in the game. That said the experience should be commensurate with the price tag and I doubt there are many that worry about Mr. Trump being able to service the debt or recoup his investment when they whip out their Visa card. I didn't say anything about lowering the green fees as I can't imagine the fee was that high before Trump bought it. Supply and demand will eventually set the price but if I am a bettor I don't think it is going to be $450.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I was looking into Pinuhurst region for a spring golf trip.  Besides the Pinehurst fees and lodging, which I expected to be high, other top GCA options in the area seem to have followed suit - Pine Needles, Mid Pines, Dormie Club.  The only affordable options seemed to be Tobacco Road and Southern Pines.  These are all courses I would have on my agenda, however when putting together a package for a group of players, it's hard to justify the cost.  

You can track the rise in fees at other Pinehurst area courses to the rise in the cost of playing #2.  

[Jon Wiggett]

If the courses are full it is not the owners fault. The golfers who pay these high prices when less trendy or perfectly conditioned options are available are the cause of the inflation. The true greed lays at the feet of those who post the most pictures on Facebook. You not only harm yourself you hurt those who play just for the love of the game. The vain game ain't cheap, never was.

But the visiting golfers do not force the owners to increase their prices. As the Irish case proves greedy owners putting up prices to muc will pay in the end when the next best place comes along.

Jon

When Mike Keiser raises prices it has very little to do with greed.  If golf at Bandon was $50 per round very few of us would get to play and when we did it would be miserable.  This is the same with any course that allows public play.  The only legal and moral way to discriminate is through price.  Do we really want to enter a lottery for the right to play wherever we choose?  That will only lead to corruption and scalping of tee times where everyone except the corrupt suffer.

Pot, kettle and all that John,

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

As to Doral, are you morons suggesting that Trump spend millions and then LOWER the green fees in order to recoup his investment, quicker ?

Patrick:

If this is your position, on what basis are you complaining about the guest fees at Sebonack?

Tom,

Your reading comprehension skills are fading.

Is "what" my position ?

That an investor spend millions and then reduce the price of the product he's vending ?
No, that's the position only a moron would hold.

As to Sebonack, it's called "Gouging" and in poor taste, but, Mike controls it, so he's free to do what he wants.

Were you aware that members, members who paid $ 1,000,000 to join, and about $ 25,000 in dues before they set foot on the course, who then took $ 25,000 sponsorships for the Open, couldn't use the men's or lady's rooms in the clubhouse.

That privilege went for an additional $ 25,000.

What are your thoughts on that ?

Now, don't duck the issue and fail to respond.
You jumped into this, so don't sneak out under the cover of darkness by failing to reply.

As to the guest fees, many members objected to the "surcharge", especially after the Open had been concluded.

What do you think about implementing a "surcharge" and continuing it for some time after the Open had concluded ?

Do you think it smacks of "gouging" ?

If Trump did the same, would there be an outcry of "greed" ?

Inquiring minds want to know your thoughts  

[jeffwarne]

Tim,
Doral has always had a high peak season price, and a significantly lower summer rate.
I'm sure that will continue, though the South American tourism keeps them going in the summer
Lots of golfers looking out their wondows at the shi#$@ weather we've been having.
that's the driver-always has been.
the average New York investment banker with glitsy PGA Tour visions and nightlife expectations and $5000+ to spend on three day weekend ain't headed to Streamsong-----Both will thrive for VERY different reasons, but if I absolutely HAD to bet against one, it wouldn't be Doral, (see World Woods which was pretty highly acclaimed) though at Doral, due to its location, its highest and best use as something else might eventually lead to its demise.

Tim,
You and I prefer good-great golf in your value proposition/experience.
Others have different priorities, and what they spend on that pales in comparison to Doral's green fee.
Hopefully there are enough of both kinds to keep both properties thriving, and (for the most part) their repeat clientele separate

[Patrick_Mucci]

As to Doral, are you morons suggesting that Trump spend millions and then LOWER the green fees in order to recoup his investment, quicker ?

I don't have any issues with Trump and I applaud him for buying properties and upping his investment in the game. That said the experience should be commensurate with the price tag and I doubt there are many that worry about Mr. Trump being able to service the debt or recoup his investment when they whip out their Visa card. I didn't say anything about lowering the green fees as I can't imagine the fee was that high before Trump bought it. Supply and demand will eventually set the price but if I am a bettor I don't think it is going to be $450.

Tim,

I believe that the price willl drop too, but, not for a few months.  Right now, with the cold blasts in the North, and the influx of money from South/Central America and Europe into Miami/Miami Beach, now is the ideal time to raise your green fees, capital committment aside.

Just look at the room rates in Miami Beach, today and thru March 31st, versus May-Sept, and you can see that NOW is the time to make hay.
The "season" is just begining.

Trump is pretty shrewd and I have to believe that he knows what he's doing.
And don't forget, if this price point doesn't work, he can always reduce it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I think you made a good point.

If someone has spent the money and booked a multi-day trip to Miami/Miami Beach, the differential between a $ 300 green fee and a $ 450 green fee won't be a deterant to playing Trump's course

[Sean_A]

I was thinking that the Pound is probably worth about half as much as it was in 1990.  Places like Troon (I seem to recall an £80 fee around 1991) and Sunningdale (the uber expensive UK clubs) are probably only a bit higher than inflation targets - its just that they started out very expensive.  As Tom notes, most clubs sussed out their value duting the 80s. While golf has become prohibitively expensive at some clubs, by and large I think UK green fees are in line with inflation. Ireland is a bit different - they went all paper tiger mad over there and more or less buggered themselves.  Serious greed took hold over there and not just in golf.  When I first played Bally Old it was 40 Irish quid (must be about 1994?).  By about 2008 the cost was about £160 - absolutely crazy increases.  Last year I paid about that but they threw in the Cashen free.  I seem to recall Dornoch too has accelerated their green fee structure in the past 10 years well beyond inflation.  I first played Dornoch for £40 maybe around 1997.  Last I looked they hit £100.  One club that has remained fairly steady is Burnham and Berrow.  They used to be quite expensive, charging £60 about 10 years ago.  The fee has only gone up to £75.  Its really one of the best bargains in England if you are looking for minor championship golf.  

Ciao  

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