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Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« on: January 17, 2010, 07:45:26 PM »
As I watched the Sony/Waialae broadcast, I couldn't recall what kind of Doak-rating The Confidential Guide had given to Waielae CC.  None, it turns out.  Not rated; not even mentioned in passing.   It has to be top-10 in Hawai'i, doesn't it?
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2010, 11:28:37 PM »
Chuck, Do you see anything in the telecast that looks like a Raynor?
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2010, 11:30:07 PM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on January 17, 2010, 11:28:37 PM
Chuck, Do you see anything in the telecast that looks like a Raynor?

The first par 3 on the course is a Biarritz. That's all I saw
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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2010, 11:51:18 PM »
I love the course but other than the 3rd, I did not see a lot of Raynor. This event is one of my favorites on tour.
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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2010, 12:21:55 AM »
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2010, 05:06:38 PM »

It desparetly needs to be restored.  Bunkers have lost edges, greens have little Raynor "interest" left.

Lester
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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2010, 05:54:13 PM »
Can George please restore it before I play there in March?   ;D
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2010, 11:48:20 AM »
Didn't Raynor die before the course was built?
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Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2010, 12:36:33 PM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on January 17, 2010, 11:28:37 PM
Chuck, Do you see anything in the telecast that looks like a Raynor?

No.  Hence, the question.

I've been watching that tournament since it was the United Airlines Hawaiian Open.  20, 30 years.  (I must say, I have been loving Hawaiian tournaments on the Golf Channel and all of their real-time live broadcasts from Hawai'i.) 

I think I learned that Waialae was a Raynor-credited design maybe 3 or 4 years ago.
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2010, 01:48:06 PM »
Raynor died a just a month or so after designing Waialae and Mid Pacific

I'm glad he can't see what happened

I think I posted a layout last time we discussed this
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 01:51:46 PM by George_Bahto »
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2010, 01:51:25 PM »
Quote from: George_Bahto on January 19, 2010, 01:48:06 PM
Raynor died a just a month or so after designing Waialae and Mid Pacific

George, does Mid-Pacific still exist?

And I wonder who designed the very interesting Navy-Marine Golf Course on Oahu.  It was most likely built about the same time.  I played it a few times when I was stationed there in 1965-66.
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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2010, 05:39:46 PM »
Bill - MP still exists.  It is fun on the same level as Waialae.  MP is a more interesting piece of land.  I've played Navy/Marine a million times and I have no idea who designed it.  Robinson??  JC
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2010, 06:20:35 PM »
William P. Bell(1948) is credited w/Navy-Marine.
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2010, 06:44:21 PM »
Quote from: Jonathan Cummings on January 19, 2010, 05:39:46 PM
Bill - MP still exists.  It is fun on the same level as Waialae.  MP is a more interesting piece of land.  I've played Navy/Marine a million times and I have no idea who designed it.  Robinson??  JC

I always loved the big bunker left of #2 with the two huge palm trees growing out of it!
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mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2010, 08:03:14 PM »
Is Waialae a member owned course?Is it only played as a guest of member?Is it a well off club?Was the original design changed ,maybe because club cash flush,or allowed to decay because club needed money?I assume the PGA contract has given them plenty of income.Looks like a valuable piece of land.just curious.
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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2010, 06:05:07 AM »
Makes sense Jim - Billy Bell spread his "seed" widely in SOCAL and the isles.  I was too lazy to look it up.  JC
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astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC New
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2010, 07:45:41 AM »
Quote from: mike_beene on January 19, 2010, 08:03:14 PM
Is Waialae a member owned course?Is it only played as a guest of member?Is it a well off club?Was the original design changed ,maybe because club cash flush,or allowed to decay because club needed money?I assume the PGA contract has given them plenty of income.Looks like a valuable piece of land.just curious.

.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 08:27:36 AM by astavrides »
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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 12:07:44 PM »
Tom Doak was named consulting architect as this course recently.

To me this is very exciting, the chance to bring back some Raynor characteristics after years of modernization, cart paths and over conditioning. 
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Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2013, 04:52:19 PM »
It was a fun course to play in the tournament.
Always a little windy, with a lot of crosswind holes.
#4 is a cool par three with a biarritz type green.
#5 is a pretty good hole, but not sure it has any Raynor  left.

#17 still has some bones in it.

The course lost a lot of land to the hotel and housing.
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mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2013, 07:35:19 PM »
Pat,they flip the nines for the tournament don't they.I assume a crowd flow issue?
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2013, 08:55:06 PM »
Originally the 1st and 2nd holes played right along the beach, and so did the 7th.  The former were re-routed by Robert Trent Jones to make room for the Kahala Hotel, the latter for a housing development.  It was the first change that resulted in the odd 9th hole (the tournament 18th -- a sharp dogleg around the now 1st hole), and the latter change that resulted in holes 5-7 being much tighter and out of character with the rest of the course (because they aren't Raynor's at all).

We have submitted our ideas for the course and await instructions on how and where we might begin work.  They are not likely to proceed very quickly, because it's a very very busy course -- they play something like 60,000 rounds per year.

As Pat mentions, it's a nice windy spot, and I thought the course conditioning was just right when we visited in May -- fast and firm.  With those sorts of conditions, it ought to be possible to make some dramatic improvements, although a full "restoration" is not possible.
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2013, 09:16:40 PM »
Tom, are those 60,000 rounds a year by the members, or are there lots of unaccompanied visitors/guests?
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Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2013, 11:17:51 PM »
Tom,
I always thought the course was fun.  Usually windy, and played in such a way
that you could play it in about any wind.
Conditions usually were decent re: firm.

Glad you're there, I hope you're able to get some work done there,
the tournament deserves it, they were always great to us IMO
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Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2013, 12:05:57 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on December 17, 2013, 08:55:06 PM
As Pat mentions, it's a nice windy spot, and I thought the course conditioning was just right when we visited in May -- fast and firm.  With those sorts of conditions, it ought to be possible to make some dramatic improvements, although a full "restoration" is not possible.

Tom, do you hope to bring back some of the Raynor?  
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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What kind of Raynor? Waialae CC
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2013, 08:12:59 PM »
60,000 rounds is impressive considering the course is closed for 1 week in January during the Sony Open. 

If you add in the 100,000+ rounds at the public course Ala Wai you have an total that is probably unsurpassed for 2 courses in such close proximity.
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