Should Royal Aberdeen come under the knife?

[Niall C]

Colin

I've never played RA therefore don't know the character of the greens there or what the specific greens were like before the redo but I have to say I mostly like what I see from your photographs. Clearly judging purely from a photo isn't the best way to judge however they do look good, particularly that last photo. It looks like an interesting green complex which might offer different ways to approach the green in terms of angle and type of shot depending on pin position.

In the old days Colt, MacKenzie et al did plenty of redesigns and often got criticised for their unfair greens which were considered too wild. It seems like history might be repeating itself as unlikely as that sounds with someone like Martin Hawtree who generally gets a bad press round here. From memory MacKenzie even wrote about it, how members who were the fiercest critics of changes eventually became the biggest champions of the work. Perhaps we should ask you about the 15th in a couple of years time  .

Niall 

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Examining the new 2nd Green from Colin's second photo I can only shake my head in disdain.

For a modern Links Green I find the symmetry of the  bunkers and perfectly spaced waves in the fall offs which don't appear to tie in with any surrounding features - unimaginative.

Added to that, the raised spine at the entrance to the green is not one of my favourite features, as it can deflect the ball running or landing on the spine away from the green surface, particularly if the bunkers are there to catch them.

[Niall C]

John

I'll give you that the perfectly spaced waves as you well described them aren't the best. As for the bunkering, well that will bed down well enough I suspect. One of the aspects of Balmedie I didn't like was the perectly shaped pot bunkers and the fact it seemed nearly every green seemed to have a dry moat round about it. That doesn't seem to be the case here in terms of the moat effect and with regards to the look of the bunkers, that will change over time as they degrade and get rebuilt. I suspect variations in positioning will occur as well as the greenkeeper/committee put their input into it.

One thing I did like about Balmedie was the internal contours of the greens which I thought was very well done so would be interested see how RA compares.

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

I have to say that when I saw Hawtree's work on the 17th at Royal Birkdale I was impressed by the boldness of his work and his willingness to build something markedly different to anything else on the course. However, to me it seems he has lost his creative mojo and I can only describe his style as a 'painting by numbers' approach where he imposes a template on a site over and over again. A general lack of imagination and courage from Mr or is it Dr(I forget)Hawtree.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Have any tees been moved in relation to the new greens? The photo of the new 2nd green (taken from the 3rd tee) suggests the 3rd tee is now further forward than was once the case. Is it?

I'd be interested to see some photos of the new 3rd green and from the photo posted I'm not convinced about the new 4th green. Was there previously more mounding to the left side of the green, behind the left hand front bunker?

As to the revised 15th green, well the revisions seem to have had other effects. For example, the tall mound behind the green on which the 16th men's tee sits, is now much lower so not only is there less 'backstop' effect but the views over the bay have been opened up as well.

And my, haven't they removed some gorse!

Atb

[Colin Shellard]

To try and answer some questions.

No Tees have moved - the 2nd green is now 40 yards further back (so the back of the old green is roughly where the front of the new one is).

On the 4th hole, there may be slightly less mounding behind the bunker on the left, but it is minimal. The green is narrower now, and the run off behind the bunker more pronounced. The banking on the right (where a bunker has been removed) is interesting and I look forward to seeing how it will play when the grasses grow in. This has always been a very hard green to hit, and the front left bunker is a real gatherer.

There are some photos, albeit not very good ones, on the club website http://www.royalaberdeengolf.com/page.aspx?pid=32102 showing some more views.

To me the biggest let down is the third, I think it is a big step back, and the removal of the front centre bunker has changed the whole character of the hole.

Oh and the changes to the 15th - I think the 16th tee was lowered a lot less than you might think - the green was raised considerably, giving the perception that the tee has been lowered more than it has. What this green has now provided is the option to ball a running ball into the green - arguably a truer links shot - that the only one option aerial route that had to be taken previously.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for these details Colin. Removing the centre bunker short of the 3rd green! Heresy!
atb

[Kevin Markham]

I'm just back from a few days in Aberdeen. If it's of help, here are photos of:
Royal Aberdeen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinmarkham/sets/72157653566068698
Murcar Links: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinmarkham/sets/72157651431815693

Got to admit, some of the greens don't quite feel a part of the course at Royal Aberdeen.

[Sean_A]

The only real issue with Aberdeen is when playing downwind several holes on the front become lay-up drives.  The variety is quashed.  ANything else "wrong" with the course is small beer compared to this.

Ciao   

[Colin Shellard]

I'm just back from a few days in Aberdeen. If it's of help, here are photos of:
Royal Aberdeen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinmarkham/sets/72157653566068698
Murcar Links: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinmarkham/sets/72157651431815693

Got to admit, some of the greens don't quite feel a part of the course at Royal Aberdeen.

Kevin - that is one of the best photo journeys through RA (I haven't had chance to look at the Murcar ones yet) I have seen. You've certainly saved me the bother of having to take any more photos to make my points about the changes - I'm just going to link to your photos if that's OK?

I would fully recommend anyone interested in the course to go through these photos, they capture the course really well in some fabulous and varied lighting conditions. Photoshopping a double Rainbow into the mix though - you've really gone too far now Kevin!

Can I ask which greens you thought didn't fit - I don't want to prejudge, but am interested to see if they are the same ones I think don't work too well.

Also wanted to point out the gorse removal between the 1st and 18th holes (something at least that should be to Sean's liking  ) - you can see some of it in this pics.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinmarkham/18435000915/in/album-72157653566068698/

[Colin Shellard]

The only real issue with Aberdeen is when playing downwind several holes on the front become lay-up drives.  The variety is quashed.  ANything else "wrong" with the course is small beer compared to this.

Ciao   

Sean - is this not just strategy off the tee? Most of the Open rota links courses don't lend themselves to hitting Driver off many of the tees - the smart play is often to lay up short of the bunkering. I'll admit that the dip on 4 and the bunkers on 6 make the 2nd shots necessarily longer, but is that really something that diminishes the quality of the course?

[Niall C]

 Colin

Don't know the situations Sean is referring to but I suspect you are right. It shouldn't be a God given right that a driver should be the play from the tee.

Niall

[Colin Shellard]

Hot off the press - the club have issued today some info on our 10/5 year plan. Some info on course alterations that may interest people on here. I've edited it slightly to remove any mention of the costs.

13th Hole

The 13th hole and green is undoubtedly the least popular on the course, and following the successful reshaping of the 12th, the intention is to work a similar transformation to this hole. Dr Hawtree is preparing plans for some redesign to better fit with the other green complexes around the course and to greatly improve and strengthen this hole. These plans would be debated by Council and shared with Members. His initial observations were that:

“The hole plays across the slope of the fairway and many players cannot reach a point in the fairway where the green is visible leaving a blind 2nd shot. I recommend reshaping the tee shot landing area in such a way that the right-hand-side is lowered and the material is used to lift the left side and to create a series of dune features on the left-hand-side, which shall be planted with marram grass to emphasise the links character on the hole. The lowering of the landing area will also make the green visible from much further back. 
 
The green is severely contoured and the axis of the green is turned about 30 degrees away from the line of play making the green very difficult to hold. The contouring on the green and surrounds is modern in style and does not reflect the rest of the course. It is proposed to move the green a little to the right-hand-side and a little further on to gain a few yards of length and create more room away from the maintenance road and the 4th green. This would also allow a less severe contouring of the surrounds. The axis of the green would be turned towards the line of play and the approach made fair and receptive to a running shot.“

Green Reconstruction. 

Reconstruction of the old root rot greens identified by Robert Patterson will continue. From the original list of 9 greens, those at holes 2,3,4,15 and 18 have been done. Those remaining to be upgraded are;

5th, 6th, 16th & 17th These would be dug out, remodeled and relaid.

As an additional option at the 6th, a new green could be built back right to lengthen the hole as, at 491yds, it is a short par 5. This would add  to the cost.  This change could also open up the opportunity of realigning the 7th hole to move the tees back into the dunes and create a dog leg hole.   Appropriate consultation and discussion with members would need to take place prior to either of these options.

Putting Green.
With the 18th green rebuilt, the difference between it and the putting green is very noticeable now when it rains heavily. The 18th drains very well whereas lakes gather on the putting green and it takes time to drain away. The plan this includes digging up and relaying the practice putting green.

Through time there will be a need to visit the remaining green complexes and to re-construct them in order to ensure we have consistency throughout the course and uniformity in putting surfaces. This has to be the long term aim of the club to ensure that the greens will last for another 50 years or longer with the proper management. It is expected that these would be included in any longer term 10 year planning window.


Interestingly the 13th green is one that was remodeled by Steele, and is, as is said above, widely unpopular. However I'm not sure I am all that keen on the proposed flattening of the fairway, but I guess I should wait to see the actual plans before making up my mind. Currently a lot of tee shots end up on the LHS of the fairway / rough due to the mounding on the right, and it is very true that it is hard to hold the green coming in from an aerial route. (This is the green that Rory drove it 427 yards in the Scottish BTW).

Also not convinced about re-modelling the 6th Green and moving the 7th tees (I'm assuming they mean to the current winter tee position which is to the right of the 6th green). That would be a major change to 2 very interesting holes IMO.

[Niall C]

Colin

It looks like the plan is to redesign pretty well every green. Judging from Hawtrees comments there seems to be an agronomy issue, which seems strange given in recent years RA has hosted both the Walker Cup and the Scottish Open ?

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting stuff.

From the splendid photos taken and linked-to by Kevin I'm not convinced by the revised 3rd green. In particular that central bunker short of the green with it's high tall face looking right at you used to have an intimidation effect and into a good strong, cold northerly wind it came into play.

The point that most caught my eye in the recently released RAGC news is the comment about the 7th tee. As Colin points out, a 7th hole tee to the right of the 6th green has long been used in the winter and to my mind the 7th is a much improved hole from the winter position. In fact there's so much space out there that a variety of tee postions/angles/lengths could be incorporated. A bit safer as well as the present 7th tee can be bombared from elsewhere and shots from the present 7th tee have been known to head towards the 11th green. Such a change would also mean more spectator space along the middle of the course.

In fact, given how much gorse had been removed, I can only wonder if "something is in the air" future event wise as considerable potential spectator walkways and viewing points etc along the middle of the course now seem to be available.

atb

[Colin Shellard]

In fact, given how much gorse had been removed, I can only wonder if "something is in the air" future event wise as considerable potential spectator walkways and viewing points etc along the middle of the course now seem to be available.

atb

Scottish Amateur Championship - 2016
European Team Championship - 2020

There is talk of an event in 2018, but nothing confirmed yet.
Apparently we have told the European Tour than we could not hold the Scottish Open again until after 2020, which sounds a bit presumptuous but apparently they have accepted the reasons (and on the current planned tour of the Scottish Links - probably not really an issue).