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David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why do we consider architects great if they....
« on: December 12, 2013, 01:14:06 PM »
are given a great piece of land or even a very good one and simply copy concepts from other great holes from classic courses? For example, Raynor and Macdonald copied holes they found great and incorporated them into their designs and we universally consider them as great architects. Can't anyone just copy great work? Put together a course on a great site incorporating Redan, Biarritz, punchbowl and cape holes and be considered a genius if the course flows?

Is anything being created that is really daring, risky and doesn't simply "copy" other classic concepts?

Another point, I'm waiting for the computer program that scans a landscape and based on all available data simply suggests many different routings and using algorithms determines the best possible and most appropriate usage of the land with a tough of a button. Then we will start considering computer nerds as great architects. 

(for the record didn't mean to copy Pat Mucci's subject lines but mine wouldn't fit.)
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2013, 01:37:32 PM »
Because the quality of a golf course is 100% in the minds of the people that play it and many/most of their courses have been played and loved by golfers for 100 years...nothing else matters.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2013, 02:15:31 PM »
I guess my first response would be that you seem to be assuming a lot, which is to say I'm not sure there's a lot of evidence that "anyone" can just copy a great work and have it be great.

Then there's the idea that the template holes are immutable copies and not without their own unique charms in the way each meets you on a given course. "Punchbowl" as a concept is nothing if not executed well, or if it's overused, out of place on the land or within the routing, etc.

The fact that Mac/Raynor courses are actually quite varied should really put to rest any concerns about them being "copies."

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2013, 02:32:36 PM »
  Because CB MacDonald told us he was a great architect.

http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/charles-blair-macdonald/

 CB was as passionate about the golf course as he was with the game, and in the times that he lived in, his zeal and evangelism for his favorite golf concepts were, I believe, like a musician playing his favorite songs.  He had something to say and by golly he was going to say it. And say it again until the exposure to great golf design was broadcast to a wider audience.  So, because you can't play National Golf Links on your Victrola phonograph or Philco radio, or practically travel hundreds or thousands of miles to play, he had to repeat his favorite concepts.

As for contemporary design "greats", well, I'll let time be their judge.  


  

"Life is simply complicated"  Jimmy Buffet
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2013, 02:36:37 PM »
Why do you care to consider whether architects are great?

Why do you care what they started with?

Isn't the only thing that matters whether we build a golf course that's fun and interesting to play?  And if we do, then why would you try to dismiss some versus others?

Ivan Lipko

Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2013, 03:01:29 PM »
Quote
Because the quality of a golf course is 100% in the minds of the people that play it and many/most of their courses have been played and loved by golfers for 100 years...nothing else matters.

Now, the question is who those people are. Many people who play Trump courses and stuff like that, that gets criticized on here, consider them to be fun, beautiful, great and fantastic experience.

I would say great golf architecture is like classic music - not many people can understand it, but those who do enjoy it immensely and love it more than an average person can imagine.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2013, 03:27:57 PM »
Quote
Isn't the only thing that matters whether we build a golf course that's fun and interesting to play?  And if we do, then why would you try to dismiss some versus others?

We surely wouldn't say an architect is great if they had a decent piece of property, and were familiar with all the great classic design hole styles and principles of their strategy, and then went out on that land and designed and oversaw a boggy incoherent mess; would we?

I find David Davis's comment very interesting about someday seeing a 'landcadd' program that analyses a detailed topographic map and has all the criteria loaded in, to factor ideal or template golf holes, and finds the best logical routing with least amount of cut and fill, etc.  I think that may very well be possible.  

The modern era, post economic crisis sparcity of golf projects, and the state of the regular customer golfer market being relatively stagnant, seems to weed out bad or incompetent architects.  Any remodel or new project is going to pay special attention to architect and construction reputation and competence, by nature of heightened awareness of need for efficient competence, and track record of the architect/constructor reputation.  

Fun and interesting to play are definitely important criteria, and we require that of a competent architect, of course.  But, if it costs an impossible amount to maintain, and is only fun and interesting when conditions are perfect - and often is a sloggy mess, or is not targetted in the right market to the right demographic, then both developer and archie and the decision to pick one archie/constructor over the others, seems critical and matters, IMHO.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2013, 03:29:02 PM »
David,

I know someone who inherited about $20 million and who decided to built a golf course.

He was convinced he could design and build a course as well as any "name" architect. He was also convinced he could build original holes that would be better than well known holes on famous golf courses.

The course he built is awful. One hole on the course might be the worst designed hole I have ever seen.
Tim Weiman

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2013, 04:24:47 PM »
It's what an architect doesn't do on a great piece of land not what he does that makes people consider him good. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2013, 04:50:36 PM »
The return of the prodigal Norbert Painter.  Sweet.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2013, 05:11:26 PM »
are given a great piece of land or even a very good one and simply copy concepts from other great holes from classic courses? For example, Raynor and Macdonald copied holes they found great and incorporated them into their designs and we universally consider them as great architects. Can't anyone just copy great work? Put together a course on a great site incorporating Redan, Biarritz, punchbowl and cape holes and be considered a genius if the course flows?

Is anything being created that is really daring, risky and doesn't simply "copy" other classic concepts?

Another point, I'm waiting for the computer program that scans a landscape and based on all available data simply suggests many different routings and using algorithms determines the best possible and most appropriate usage of the land with a tough of a button. Then we will start considering computer nerds as great architects. 

(for the record didn't mean to copy Pat Mucci's subject lines but mine wouldn't fit.)
I think you'll be waiting a long time for that computer program.
I have a add on ACAD type computer program that was supposed to help me design irrigation systems. Lay all the heads out, then click a button and all the pipe is run, perfectly size based on the parameters I select. Sounds great, fool proof...except it does not work.

I get a lot more done by just doing it myself. The other thing I've learned about laying out a renovation system on a new course is by far the best methods is to go out and simply stake the exisiting course, lay it out on the ground, every head, pipe, valve...etc...then GPS and create the plan for bidding purposes. Best method by a million miles, and no computer is going to do that.

The problem everyone has here and most seem so against accepting, is whatever you draw or program in the office, is not what gets built. Sometimes close, often too close because so many in this business pride themselves on drawing good and accurate plans, so they stick to the plan even if some changes in the field make for a better golf course.

I'm sure a computer can route a golf course, let me know when you get it do appreciate a back drop.  

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2013, 05:13:23 PM »
Practically every great artist copied developments and styles from other artists. Why should golf architecture be different?

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2013, 05:23:08 PM »
For example, Raynor and Macdonald copied holes they found great and incorporated them into their designs and we universally consider them as great architects.

The suggestion that Macdonald and Raynor simply "copied" great holes is a falacy. The genius was in how they adapted the concepts to each piece of land.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2013, 06:11:50 PM »
The return of the prodigal Norbert Painter.  Sweet.

Bogey

 :o :o
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2013, 06:16:22 PM »
template holes are all about SCALE...there has always been more to it than just copying templates...IMHO...

Oops...all golf holes are about scale.... ???
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2013, 07:08:19 PM »
Unlike most of us who just talk about golf courses, the notorious Slagbert has figured out a way to help BUILD them!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2013, 08:48:30 PM »
are given a great piece of land or even a very good one and simply copy concepts from other great holes from classic courses? For example, Raynor and Macdonald copied holes they found great and incorporated them into their designs and we universally consider them as great architects. Can't anyone just copy great work? Put together a course on a great site incorporating Redan, Biarritz, punchbowl and cape holes and be considered a genius if the course flows?

Because the concepts underlying certain holes are time tested have proven to produce interesting and enjoyable golf holes. Why not use what works?   Would you have an architect design a building without applying any of the proven concepts of the past?  

One must have the gift on imagination to successfully apply the original to new situations. . . .
     I believe in reverencing anything in the life of man which has the testimony of the ages as being unexcelled, whether it be literature, paintings, poetry, tombs -- even a golf hole.

--CBM
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2013, 09:06:35 PM »
I haven't seen a lot of golf courses, granted, but what I don't see out there is an overabundance of great holes and great golf courses, whether based on copying 'templates' or not. Indeed, I'd venture to say that it's a lot harder - more difficult to get it right, and succeed -- to 'cheat' or 'fake it' by copying great golf holes than by copying great songs/licks, or books or art.

Peter

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2013, 10:30:36 PM »
Originality is overrated.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 02:07:24 AM »
Originality is overrated.

Not when you actually come upon an original hole!  Its a very rare treat that shouldn't be glibly brushed aside. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2013, 04:38:41 AM »
The trouble is using the word "copy".

Most great golf holes have used a time proven principle or concept in their design, even if that is as broad as "strategic".... There are far more variables in the design of each of these concepts than there are constants... So to steal from Frank Pont, there can still be infinite variety...

Put simply, even with the most obvious of templates like MacRaynor ones, only a very small minority of golfers even notice... And if they hadn't been alerted to it beforehand, even fewer would....

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2013, 04:47:48 AM »
David,

I know someone who inherited about $20 million and who decided to built a golf course.

He was convinced he could design and build a course as well as any "name" architect. He was also convinced he could build original holes that would be better than well known holes on famous golf courses.

The course he built is awful. One hole on the course might be the worst designed hole I have ever seen.

Tim,

For 20 million, he should of hired a great architect to help him I guess. If this person is your friend what did you recommend that he do? I'm sure he's not the first person to think they could do it all alone and muck it up, whether it came to building a building, golf course or anything else for that matter.

People make poor decision with money every single day. I wouldn't mind seeing a photo of the worst designed hole you've ever seen. Now I'm curious as that puts the rest into perspective perhaps. That is if you have one.

Cheers
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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www.lockharttravelclub.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2013, 05:30:37 AM »

are given a great piece of land or even a very good one and simply copy concepts from other great holes from classic courses?

For example, Raynor and Macdonald copied holes they found great and incorporated them into their designs and we universally consider them as great architects.

Can't anyone just copy great work?

No, I don't think so.
I think it takes talent to fit the hole into the land, into the routing.
Try it one day and see if you can inflict holes that might not fit into your plan


Put together a course on a great site incorporating Redan, Biarritz, punchbowl and cape holes and be considered a genius if the course flows?

David,

If it was that easy, don't you think that others would have done it ?


Is anything being created that is really daring, risky and doesn't simply "copy" other classic concepts?

Another point, I'm waiting for the computer program that scans a landscape and based on all available data simply suggests many different routings and using algorithms determines the best possible and most appropriate usage of the land with a tough of a button. Then we will start considering computer nerds as great architects. 

(for the record didn't mean to copy Pat Mucci's subject lines but mine wouldn't fit.)

Not a problem as I haven't copyrighted the method...............yet ;D


David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2013, 07:23:52 AM »
Why do you care to consider whether architects are great?

Why do you care what they started with?

Isn't the only thing that matters whether we build a golf course that's fun and interesting to play?  And if we do, then why would you try to dismiss some versus others?

Tom,

Do you always answer a question with a question? But sure I'll play along.

Why do you care to consider whether architects are great?

Perhaps for the same reason people care to consider whether musicians, composers, athletes, philosophers or anyone else has acheived greatness, for me it's about getting a better understanding of something I'm passionate about. Searching for answers, even though they may not exist or may be so subjective that the question perhaps when broken down do not make any sense at all.

Why did you initially go out and start your rating system and give severe critique to other architects work? It sounds as though you are asking your question in a way that suggests I do not have the right to ask mine. I'm certainly no architect and will never be one but that does not mean I can't ask what people think on these subjects.

Why do you care what they started with?

Only because I find them, their work and the processes they went through to develop their careers interesting.

Isn't the only thing that matters whether we build a golf course that's fun and interesting to play?  And if we do, then why would you try to dismiss some versus others?

Well, I'd have to say yes to that although I'd skip the negative wording twist on the end. Why do you try to dismiss some of their work versus others in your Confidential Guides?

I wouldn't say I try to dismiss anyones work but more try to find out what aspects of their work I like, what feels right to me and what I think is fun both for me as well as others. On top of that I like to know why we all don't have a kind of fixed formula for fun in terms of GCA. Sometimes it seems like it can boil down to such basic concepts that it's hard to understand how it can on occasion be so messed up. Tim just commented above that a guy he knows had 20 million to build a course and made a disaster out of it. If all that was required was to make it fun and he could use some kind of predefined concepts of fun why didn't it work?


Then we take a course like Wolf Point that Mike and Don put together with I think a pretty modest budget and everyone seems to love it that plays it. I know I did.




Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we consider architects great if they....
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2013, 02:02:26 PM »
David Davis,

What did I do with the guy who inherited $20 million? Basically, I tried unsuccessfully to convince him that he should hire a professional architect and that he wouldn't need to spend $1 million in fees to do that.

But, his mind was already made up. He believed he could build something better than Fazio or Nicklaus - the million dollar guys - so why should he even bother with architects who charged less?

I do remember having a conversation with his best friend who agreed with me on how bad one particular hole was. But, the friend convinced me the guy would never listen to anyone.

The worst part was being invited to appear on a local radio show with the guy to discuss the course. I was supposed to play the role of the well, traveled golf architecture expert.

Fortunately, the guy babbled on and on limiting any time for me answer questions I didn't want to answer, though I was asked what I thought of the course. No harm in lying I thought!
Tim Weiman