[Brent Hutto]

Tom,

As a golfer (not a owner or superintendent) the cost savings is just a bonus. Here in South Carolina the fall transition from overseeding wipes out 2-3 weeks of the absolutely best time of year to play golf. Then a few months later the spring transition tends to linger on and on (or at least seems to me) just when the weather is feeling much nicer than it has been.

When I joined my current club I considered the no-overseeding practice to be a big plus as a potential member who plays a lot of spring and fall golf. Now a decade later very few places overseed but back then it was the majority of "nicer" golf courses.

[Roger Wolfe]

Guys.  It is a much more pleasing experience to hit a white ball off a green surface then a light, tan surface.  I had never experienced it until CCNC last March.  It is awesome.  Approximately $5k for three applications on our fairways this winter.  There is no doubt it will help us green up in March due to the dark color retaining heat.  However, the true reason for doing it is that it "REALLY LOOKS COOL" and you can do it without compromising your bermudagrass by over seeding.  So far it is a home run.

[Jon Wiggett]

Rolf,

I will take tan any day of the week though I must admit to having no real experience of tan bermudagrass.

Jon

[BCowan]

Any southern courses overseeding the rough only?  I like brown or painted fairways and would prefer overseeding done in the rough where the tee shot ends up to slow down errant shots and add some contrast. 

[Joe Hancock]

Any southern courses overseeding the rough only?  I like brown or painted fairways and would prefer overseeding done in the rough where the tee shot ends up to slow down errant shots and add some contrast. 

That would be similar to bowling with the bumpers in the gutters, only with contrast for some reason.......

Joe

[SL_Solow]

I was speaking to the director of our turfgrass program at the CDGA, Ed Nangle, about this topic.  Before he came to us he did some research regarding pigmentation and published some interesting work with colleagues.  Too technical for this lawyer but I will get and forward the citations.  In any event, he suggests that there are several potential benefits to this procedure.  First, the darker color tends to hold heat.  When the course comes out of  dormancy this is likely to speed recovery from the winter.  Second, if overseeding is used, the rye or other grasses need a lot of water when germinating.  Accordingly the course will play a lot softer for extended periods.  It will probably play softer throughout the winter.  Third, if a course is overseeded, when the warm weather comes, it takes some time for the rye to die off.  During that period, the rye competes with the bermuda for water, nutrients etc. and slows the recovery.  Finally, if "green" is desired, its a lot cheaper to apply pigment as opposed to the cost of overseeding.   So if green is desirable, this is not such a strange idea.

[Pat Burke]

I've seen a lot of course overseed roughs only.
Unfortunately, every course I've seen that does it, has irrigation
that waters the roughs AND the dormant fairways.  Net effect...soft muddy under thin dormant

If you have the ability to keep the water off the dormant grass, fine, I'm in, but I just don't like
investing time, water, and money on rough, not fairways.

[Carl Johnson]

Any southern courses overseeding the rough only?  I like brown or painted fairways and would prefer overseeding done in the rough where the tee shot ends up to slow down errant shots and add some contrast. 

That would be similar to bowling with the bumpers in the gutters, only with contrast for some reason.......

Joe

This is just personal, but I get enough of the rough in the growing season, so it's kind of nice to be able to go wild in the winter and still find your ball and have a shot.

[Adam Lawrence]

Rolf,

I will take tan any day of the week though I must admit to having no real experience of tan bermudagrass.

Jon

Jon - the experience bit is key here - a dormant monostand of bermuda, unpainted, is a very different site from a browned-out multistand of different fescues and bents - a rather fierce shade of yellow, and not desperately attractive. Winter overseeding is a practice that is quite rightly in decline. It is environmentally bad news, although in places where there is a very large amount of winter golf and a lengthy period of dormancy of the warm season strains it remains necessary - but I wholly understand courses' reasoning for painting the turf. And it's a huge improvement, in sustainability terms, compared to oversees.

[Brent Hutto]

Any southern courses overseeding the rough only?  I like brown or painted fairways and would prefer overseeding done in the rough where the tee shot ends up to slow down errant shots and add some contrast. 

That would be similar to bowling with the bumpers in the gutters, only with contrast for some reason.......

Joe

This is just personal, but I get enough of the rough in the growing season, so it's kind of nice to be able to go wild in the winter and still find your ball and have a shot.

For my game which desperately lacks distance playing golf on a breezy, cloudy 40F-45F winter day can be frustrating. If I had to be hitting 2 clubs extra on every shot when I hit the fairway AND wedging the ball out of summer-thickness rough when I miss I'd just wait until Spring. Either that or move up to the 5,000 yard ladies tees and just tee off with a 5-iron to be sure and hit the fairway.

[jeffwarne]

Any southern courses overseeding the rough only?  I like brown or painted fairways and would prefer overseeding done in the rough where the tee shot ends up to slow down errant shots and add some contrast. 

That would be similar to bowling with the bumpers in the gutters, only with contrast for some reason.......

Joe

This is just personal, but I get enough of the rough in the growing season, so it's kind of nice to be able to go wild in the winter and still find your ball and have a shot.

For my game which desperately lacks distance playing golf on a breezy, cloudy 40F-45F winter day can be frustrating. If I had to be hitting 2 clubs extra on every shot when I hit the fairway AND wedging the ball out of summer-thickness rough when I miss I'd just wait until Spring. Either that or move up to the 5,000 yard ladies tees and just tee off with a 5-iron to be sure and hit the fairway.

When I worked at Palmetto Dunes in the 80's. they overseeded fairways at the Jones course, wall to wall at the hIlls course. and rough only at the Fazio (George) course.
the course with rough only actually played and looked the best. (though the Hills course looked pretty darn good wall to wall late winter, early spring)
Rye grass , especially overseeded winter rye is much easier to play from than summer bermuda rough, so Brent no worries-and you'd still get your fairway roll to boot.
Certainly a lot easier around the greens than tight, moist, dormant turf by late winter early spring when certain areas get beat down from no growth and high traffic.

[Brent Hutto]

That's true, Jeff. I was picturing July/August length Bermuda rough.

Honestly, I doubt I've played more than a handful or so of courses down here in the winter with the rough overseeded.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I was speaking to the director of our turfgrass program at the CDGA, Ed Nangle, about this topic.  Before he came to us he did some research regarding pigmentation and published some interesting work with colleagues.  Too technical for this lawyer but I will get and forward the citations.  In any event, he suggests that there are several potential benefits to this procedure.  First, the darker color tends to hold heat.  When the course comes out of  dormancy this is likely to speed recovery from the winter.  Second, if overseeding is used, the rye or other grasses need a lot of water when germinating.  Accordingly the course will play a lot softer for extended periods.  It will probably play softer throughout the winter.  Third, if a course is overseeded, when the warm weather comes, it takes some time for the rye to die off.  During that period, the rye competes with the bermuda for water, nutrients etc. and slows the recovery.  Finally, if "green" is desired, its a lot cheaper to apply pigment as opposed to the cost of overseeding.   So if green is desirable, this is not such a strange idea.

Just to play off what you've started, I think that "liquid overseed" will continue to become popular where having definition is desired on dormant Bermuda. The cost of seed is going up because of shortages and not only is there savings on seed, there is savings on water, fertilizers, mowing and the mowers themselves. Less hours mowing turf year round may extend the life of a fairway unit 1,2+ years and at $55-60k each, that's important.
  But most importantly, the golf courses that paint can play their best during the best weather patterns of the year. I always hated that we had to seed at Long Cove when it was 75-80 degrees and 60 at night. But that was the right temp for the rye, but also the perfect temps for some fast fairways and firm Bermuda greens

[BCowan]

Any southern courses overseeding the rough only?  I like brown or painted fairways and would prefer overseeding done in the rough where the tee shot ends up to slow down errant shots and add some contrast. 

That would be similar to bowling with the bumpers in the gutters, only with contrast for some reason.......

Joe

This is just personal, but I get enough of the rough in the growing season, so it's kind of nice to be able to go wild in the winter and still find your ball and have a shot.

For my game which desperately lacks distance playing golf on a breezy, cloudy 40F-45F winter day can be frustrating. If I had to be hitting 2 clubs extra on every shot when I hit the fairway AND wedging the ball out of summer-thickness rough when I miss I'd just wait until Spring. Either that or move up to the 5,000 yard ladies tees and just tee off with a 5-iron to be sure and hit the fairway.

When I worked at Palmetto Dunes in the 80's. they overseeded fairways at the Jones course, wall to wall at the hIlls course. and rough only at the Fazio (George) course.
the course with rough only actually played and looked the best. (though the Hills course looked pretty darn good wall to wall late winter, early spring)
Rye grass , especially overseeded winter rye is much easier to play from than summer bermuda rough, so Brent no worries-and you'd still get your fairway roll to boot.
Certainly a lot easier around the greens than tight, moist, dormant turf by late winter early spring when certain areas get beat down from no growth and high traffic.

Great share Jeff, I wonder if the fazio course had a triple irrigation system to water the rough only.  Or actually just allow mother nature to provide the rain post grow in.  Plus it is a way to compromise with the people who love green. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Any southern courses overseeding the rough only?  I like brown or painted fairways and would prefer overseeding done in the rough where the tee shot ends up to slow down errant shots and add some contrast. 

That would be similar to bowling with the bumpers in the gutters, only with contrast for some reason.......

Joe

This is just personal, but I get enough of the rough in the growing season, so it's kind of nice to be able to go wild in the winter and still find your ball and have a shot.

For my game which desperately lacks distance playing golf on a breezy, cloudy 40F-45F winter day can be frustrating. If I had to be hitting 2 clubs extra on every shot when I hit the fairway AND wedging the ball out of summer-thickness rough when I miss I'd just wait until Spring. Either that or move up to the 5,000 yard ladies tees and just tee off with a 5-iron to be sure and hit the fairway.

When I worked at Palmetto Dunes in the 80's. they overseeded fairways at the Jones course, wall to wall at the hIlls course. and rough only at the Fazio (George) course.
the course with rough only actually played and looked the best. (though the Hills course looked pretty darn good wall to wall late winter, early spring)
Rye grass , especially overseeded winter rye is much easier to play from than summer bermuda rough, so Brent no worries-and you'd still get your fairway roll to boot.
Certainly a lot easier around the greens than tight, moist, dormant turf by late winter early spring when certain areas get beat down from no growth and high traffic.

Great share Jeff, I wonder if the fazio course had a triple irrigation system to water the rough only.  Or actually just allow mother nature to provide the rain post grow in.  Plus it is a way to compromise with the people who love green. 

Highly doubtful. Not many courses even have back to back heads to water fairways/zero ugh. Id guess the system is similar to when Jeff was there

[MClutterbuck]

Does painting eliminate one of the advantages of no overseeding?

One thing I like about the bermuda going dormant is that it becomes really easy to spot weeds and other grass contamination (especially poa annua) and selectively treat these spots with a strong dose of herbicide that will not damage the dormant bermuda. Often this allows one to use products which are better for the environment than selective herbicides.

At our club we are discontinuing our practice of overseeding par 3 tees and the chipping practice due to all the environmental, cost, transition and aesthetic reasons widely shared. Poa annua contamination in these areas had become a big issue as well.

We are struggling to decide what to do with the 3 driving range tee areas. The concern with no overseeding is that we might not have any grass left come spring. We are considering a rotation by which just 2 or just 1 of the tee areas get overseeded. The ones left dormant would be treated extensively for Poa.

[Matt Wharton]

Does painting eliminate one of the advantages of no overseeding?

One thing I like about the bermuda going dormant is that it becomes really easy to spot weeds and other grass contamination (especially poa annua) and selectively treat these spots with a strong dose of herbicide that will not damage the dormant bermuda. Often this allows one to use products which are better for the environment than selective herbicides.

At our club we are discontinuing our practice of overseeding par 3 tees and the chipping practice due to all the environmental, cost, transition and aesthetic reasons widely shared. Poa annua contamination in these areas had become a big issue as well.

We are struggling to decide what to do with the 3 driving range tee areas. The concern with no overseeding is that we might not have any grass left come spring. We are considering a rotation by which just 2 or just 1 of the tee areas get overseeded. The ones left dormant would be treated extensively for Poa.

M,

I cannot say definitively that painting will have a negative impact on a course's ability to treat dormant bermudagrass with herbicides to control Poa annua and other winter weeds.  I do believe the use of true non-selective type herbicides may possibly be difficult if the color applied to the dormant turf retains heat and thus the plant is not fully dormant.  I am not surprised to hear your club is seeing Poa contamination in the areas previously overseeded as Poa annua seed is a common contaminant (very small percentage typically) in ryegrass seed.  It is not uncommon to see courses that overseed have to spend more time and resources combating Poa annua than courses that do not overseed. 
You also mentioned a concern that without overseeding the range tees you might not have any grass left come spring.  At Carolina we tried several years ago to permit use of the natural grass tee during the winter months (we do NOT overseed) by using the tee Friday-Sunday (we are closed Mondays and we used the artificial tee line located behind the grass tee on Tuesday-Thursday).  By early February that year there was no suitable turf remaining and the tee had to be closed until we were able to grow it back in.  We did not open the tee for use that year until mid-May!  Our policy now is to close the natural tee when Daylight Savings Time ends and all use is limited to the artificial surfaces (we have 5'x5' mats).  Granted this is unpopular but doing so allows us to reopen the natural grass tee much earlier each spring (typically around Masters weekend). 

[MClutterbuck]

Matt, thanks for your reply. Apart from what you mention, I was thinking painting would disguise the poa annua and therefore we would miss it until it matures and seeds.

[BCowan]

Guys.  It is a much more pleasing experience to hit a white ball off a green surface then a light, tan surface.  I had never experienced it until CCNC last March.  It is awesome.  Approximately $5k for three applications on our fairways this winter.  There is no doubt it will help us green up in March due to the dark color retaining heat.  However, the true reason for doing it is that it "REALLY LOOKS COOL" and you can do it without compromising your bermudagrass by over seeding.  So far it is a home run.

$5,000 for 3 applications seems very affordable.  Factoring in lost revenue (public course), irrigation, seed, and staff what is your estimate for overseeding fairways?  Are most NC courses dying their fairways?  How is cart traffic on died fairways holding up in NC area?   

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