A Question for Pat Mucci (and others)

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat (and others) - From your posts over the years, it's clear that you have played many of the finest (mostly private) courses in NY, NJ, FL and PENN, and that you've played those courses often in your decades as a golfer. You have also travelled occasionally for really superlative golf, as at Sand Hills. But I noticed the other day that you went to play Streamsong -- and it made me wonder:

What does a new, public course have to have in order for you to take yourself away from the stable of top 100 private courses you tend to play and travel to go see it for yourself? What do you look for in -- or want to hear/read about -- that course before you're willing to try something new? Streamsong of course has both Tom D and C&C -- is that what gave you the confidence/impetus to forego a round you know will be great (at one of your usual haunts) for a round that might not be?

In short, for you well travelled and well heeled souls out there who belong to/can play a steady diet of great old course(s), what is it about a new course that will get you to give it a go?

Peter

[Ronald Montesano]

an enema, I suspect...

[RJ_Daley]

Peter, while not being well heeled or well traveled, and not Pat Mucci....  

I'd think you would have to turn the question around a bit to have any insight.  I mean it is almost a no-brainer to take a shot at a course that has one Doak and one C&C on a sandy site and forego just about anything that the region has to offer within 100 miles or more.  If you are able to access some storied top rated course in the same general region (even a couple hundred miles - like Seminole) and have already played it - even just once;  wouldn't most folk go for what must certainly not suck with Doak and C&C presenting their offerings?

So, to turn it around, I'd ask such a fellow like "the Moochie"; what element of a highly hyped new attraction would dissuade you, if you already had a world class venue in hand?  I think we already established that the decision isn't made on a price point.  So, could it be reputation of the archie, or previously experienced work of that archie that was disappointing, and thus wouldn't pass up the bird in the hand for the very hyped two in the bush?  What if the choice was something ballyhooed by many golf critics in the usual hyperventilation venues of travel golf guides and a course at a renowned resort operator vs a classic old known standby?  

[Scott Warren]

In short, for you well travelled souls out there who belong to/can play a steady diet of great old course(s), what is it about a new course that will get you to give it a go?

(I took out "well heeled" from your quote because I have the arse hanging out of my strides half the time, but beg, borrow and steal to afford golf trips!)

The fact that Renaissance Golf Design, Coore & Crenshaw and Ogilvy Clayton Design (I have not yet played a Hanse, Phillips, Kidd or De Vries course) are building some of the greatest courses ever conceived.

It was a long way from Sydney to Holyoke and Mullen (three flights, about 22hrs total) and it's a hell of a long way from NY, LA or London to Bridport in Tasmania, but those trips are so enormously worth taking because the courses waiting at the end are among the best ever built and are the perfect celebration of all the things that make golf so great.

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

I'm obviously not coming from the same perspective as Patrick, or many other posters here.  But I'm still going out of my way to see courses I haven't seen before, and the driving force behind my choices is whether I think they will present anything DIFFERENT than what I've already seen.  They don't have to be 10's, as long as they're interesting and not entirely predictable.

I know that somewhat contradicts the premise on here that only courses by certain architects (including myself) can be good enough to skip a game at Seminole ... and that's both flattering and somewhat depressing, at the same time.  I do think both Bill and I work hard to try to make every new course a bit different than the ones before, and I guess that's a sign that we are succeeding.

Funny, though, that it was Patrick himself who was advocating that every architect needs to have a particular style, just the other day.  

[BCowan]

Mr Doak

     I think what Mr Mucci was trying to say, is that Neil Young tried to make each album different and challenge himself.  Even though each album is unique his style is the same and you can recognize him after a couple bars or his voice.  Which i don't think is a bad thing

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat (and others) - From your posts over the years, it's clear that you have played many of the finest (mostly private) courses in NY, NJ, FL and PENN, and that you've played those courses often in your decades as a golfer.

You have also travelled occasionally for really superlative golf, as at Sand Hills.
But I noticed the other day that you went to play Streamsong -- and it made me wonder:

What does a new, public course have to have in order for you to take yourself away from the stable of top 100 private courses you tend to play and travel to go see it for yourself?

Peter,

High praise, especially from the GCA.com crowd certainly piques my interest.
Rave reviews from independent third parties and not so independent third parties add to my interest,
and, word of mouth from friends and acquaintances, whose opinions I respect, round out the process.

Then, it's a matter of opportunity.
How can I get there and where can I stay.

Bandon, Sand Hills and Streamsong had all of the above, although, Streamsong hadn't been up and running very long when I visited.
But, the chorus singing it's praises was so loud, that it was impossible to ignore.

I loved Streamsong, but, favored the Blue by 8-2/9-1.
Both were great courses, but, I found the back nine on the Red a little to difficult and I really enjoyed the Blue.

What do you look for in -- or want to hear/read about -- that course before you're willing to try something new?
Streamsong of course has both Tom D and C&C -- is that what gave you the confidence/impetus to forego a round you know will be great (at one of your usual haunts) for a round that might not be?

In addition to the three items listed above, Streamsong's pedigree certainly served as the icing on the cake.
Having the opportunity to play, not one, but two courses designed by highly regarded architects is a more than adequate inducement,
especially when coupled with the three items above.


In short, for you well travelled and well heeled souls out there who belong to/can play a steady diet of great old course(s), what is it about a new course that will get you to give it a go?


The four golfing items listed above, plus opportunity.
I was going to be in Florida for my son's vacation and it was about a 3 hour drive, so I made reservations in advance and drove over with my son for a nice 2.5 day golf trip.

I wasn't disappointed.

Everything I had heard about Streamsong, from a golfing perspective was true.
The courses and conditions were terrific.
The accomodations great and the staff fabulous.
The hole in one on # 8 red the last day was the icing on the cake.

Plus, I had the opportunity to meet with Kyle Harris, have dinner with Bill Brightly and his gang of degenerate golfers, and as a bonus, I met this guy near the first tee of the Red, looking for Morons.  He asked me, "Have you seen any morons lately ?"  I said, "They're everywhere, even by the first tee/cooler"  It was Bryan Izatt from GCA.com, so those events also added to a most enjoyable experience.

Peter, as the saying goes, "build it and they will come".  Well, it's true.

The key is to retain a good pace of play, especially one that will let golfers get in 36 a day.
They had a good caddy program, the caddy I had was terrific and we had a good time.
Conditioning is another factor.
I found the course in very good condition, which, will bring me back.
If play was slow and/or conditions poor, I wouldn't be interested in coming back.
But, that wasn't the case.
We played at a rapid pace and conditions were very good.

Hope that helps

If it doesn't, think of it this way.

If you saw a gorgeous woman, and she winked at you, would you pursue her ?

Well, Streamsong "winked" at me, albeit in different form.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Are you telling us, with your incredibly keen eye, that you don't see any evidence of a style, a general theme in C&C's work ?

I haven't had the opportunity to play enough of your courses to discern that which you can't see

[Mike Hendren]

Remember the Twilight Zone episode where the gambler died and in the afterlife won every bet he placed?   As the thrill subsided he figured out he was in hell, not heaven.  I think the analogy holes true for seeking new golf courses.   For every Palmetto there should be an Aiken.  For every Chambers Bay there should be a Fircrest.  For every Pinehurst #2 there should be a Southern Pines.  For every Merion there should be a LuLu.

Often the greatest architecture is not found on the greatest courses.  

I pity the Mooch (and the so-called others).

Bogey

[Sean_A]

Remember the Twilight Zone episode where the gambler died and in the afterlife won every bet he placed?   As the thrill subsided he figured out he was in hell, not heaven.  I think the analogy holes true for seeking new golf courses.   For every Palmetto there should be an Aiken.  For every Chambers Bay there should be a Fircrest.  For every Pinehurst #2 there should be a Southern Pines.  For every Merion there should be a LuLu.

Often the greatest architecture is not found on the greatest courses.  

And here I was thinking that for every Sunningdale there are two Cleeve Clouds.

Ciao  

[Mark Saltzman]

Often the greatest architecture is not found on the greatest courses.  

Maybe a stretch, but I do agree that the some of the biggest thrills are finding great holes or unique greens on entirely unknown courses.  Over the past couple of years I've made a point of playing little-known 9-holers and almost without fail each course has at least one 'holy shit' moment. 

[Mike Hendren]

Mark, I totally agree.  Is it simply thrilling to unexpectedly encounter a great golf hole, or even a unique green or well-made bunker.

Cheers,

Bogey

[Jim Hoak]

Pat (or others answering this), have you made the difficult trek to Cabot.  If not, why not?
I did make it for all the reasons Pat enumerated.  I have nothing to add.  Loved the whole trip, and I'm sure I will like it even more when Cabot Links is done.
It is obviously a more difficult trip than to Streamsong, but the difficulty of the trip--and the remoteness of the site--was strangely part of the appeal.  Plus the chance to see what Ben had created--and meet with him to hear about it.

[Brent Hutto]

I don't have the access or the travel resources that most posters in this thread enjoy (and not even in the same universe as Pat Mucci) but when allocating my limited opportunities I simply try to maximize the chance I will enjoy "a good time" playing whatever course(s) I visit.

My definition of "a good time" comes down to two things. If a course has good, firm, well-drained turf so that it's a joy to hit shots from and watch the ball react when it hits the ground that's the biggest requirement. And if there's at least one hole on the course that I can play two or three times then walk away saying "Next time I'll figure that one out for sure!" then that's the icing on the cake.

Here's my problem. I've built up quite a list of courses which meet those two rather simple requirements. And since I can't just up and travel across the country or across the ocean any time I feel like it, there comes a certain temptation to quit rolling the dice and just return again and again to places that maximize my chances of having "a good time".

But truth be told, my track record upon seeing new-to-me courses is pretty favorable. Working from invitations and recommendations among the GCA regulars and elite I can eat my cake and have it too. The majority of times I "roll the dice" and try something totally new I end up having "a good time" in spades. So it's a pretty big world out there and plenty of good stuff to go around.

[Steve Lapper]

I think it's a great question. Like Pat, et.al., I'm blessed with the ability to play some terrific and very private courses.

I love to see new places. I may well have a unabashed love for treasured venues, but it is equally exciting to step foot onto a place I've never been and enjoy an experience of playing shots to holes I've yet to ever see. Like Tom, I want to see what is possibly different from what I've seen when I see a course for the first time. Yes, it's becoming increasingly difficult to be overwhelmingly surprised. I look for how the architect has chosen to route the course through the terrain I'm on.

 Seeing places like Cabot Links, Trump Aberdeen and Castle Stuart are enlightening and exciting. Similarly an initial walk around Sands Point or Ferry Point  stirs the blood  Seeing a Pikewood National for the first time no less so, even though I'd probably not be comparing it nearby Oakmont. I know I'm excited to see Chambers Bay and Gamble Sands this year and really could care less if the course is private or public.

Cheers

[Josh Tarble]

Here's the thing about Streamsong compared to other "typical" destinations:

1.  It has two world-class courses - this is huge. Same clubhouse, no driving required. Play both twice and you won't be let down.
2.  Convenience - compared to everywhere else, this place is easy to get to.  Tampa or Orlando have direct flights from almost every major airport in the US and a rental car is 2 hours max.  Probably less really.  

For me it's as simple as that.  If I could do a weekend trip to Cabot or Bandon, I would immediately.  But those two places are very remote, requiring multiple connecting flights plus a lengthy drive.  They're minimum 5 day trips for me.  SS I can fly in Friday, play three or four rounds and be home Sunday night.

[Mike Sweeney]

In short, for you well travelled and well heeled souls out there who belong to/can play a steady diet of great old course(s), what is it about a new course that will get you to give it a go?

Peter

Peter,

First off, let's put this into perspective. Streamsong is not exactly some muni in Florida. Here is the scorecard from the last course played in Connecticut



I am in Orlando/Disney 2-3 times a year for family reasons. I hope SS stays open to day trippers as I will make my 4th 18 hole one day trip there in a few weeks. I fear the "vibe" will change when The Lodge opens in January, but time will tell. If it does, there are lots of options in Central Florida.

I think your question should be reversed. What happens to the Old Dead Guy clubs when Pat Mucci's son decides that he can have great golf without the restrictions (monthly dues, feeling that I have to play my club, same course…) of a private club?

[Gib_Papazian]

Stumbling across something of real merit that nobody has ever heard of is one of the game's greatest thrills. I've got a fairly impressive resume, but am bored stiff singing the praises of Merion or PV because there is no way to mount an argument to the contrary.

How hot is Keira Knightley? Is she an 8.75 or a 9? The answer is "who gives a shit?" The point is that she's ridiculously hot and trying to split hairs and ascertain whether she is sexier than Emma Stone by cutting them into little categories comparing tits, legs and lips is every bit as ridiculous as taking two bands and comparing the individual players instead of their music - which is a matter of taste anyway.

I'm much more interested in finding the next Eagle Point or Crosby National - excellent golf courses that somehow fly under the radar, undiscovered by the coffee house intelligentsia. I remember Redanman taking me to Applebrook when it first opened - a superb golf course nobody ever mentions around here. It was like being taken to a hidden hole-in-the-wall tavern with spectacular food. I opted for Applebrook instead of playing one of the biggies in the neighborhood and damned glad we made that choice.

Examining a terrific - but relatively unknown - course was like being let in on a cool secret. It reminds me of the time The Emperor took me to Barona Creek - at the time a brand new course at the end of twisty road in the middle of nowhere. When we turned the corner it looked like a rocky canyon full of rattlesnakes (it was), yet 18 holes later I was in love with it.

We had one day at Gleneagles and I had to make a choice, the Kings or Queens (no, I am not going to fly 8,000 to play a Nicklaus Course). The opinion I heard most often was that the King's was a greater test, but the Queen's was far more interesting and unusual. The Queen's it was. It is better to learn something new than something everybody already knows.  

Now, I've got unusual tastes and seem to always prefer the B-side song, but now that I've made the circuit of America's top courses according to the critics (of which I am one), the road less traveled has a far more powerful allure.    

[Thomas Dai]

some of the biggest thrills are finding great holes or unique greens on entirely unknown courses.  Over the past couple of years I've made a point of playing little-known 9-holers and almost without fail each course has at least one 'holy shit' moment. 

I couldn't agree more, and sometimes the H-S moment is the whole damn course, which is exactly how I felt when I played The Bann 9-holer at Castlerock. It was very nearly my highlight of the whole golfing year. I could easily play it over and over and over again without getting bored, and there are a lot of famous courses I couldn't do that on.

I noticed that Mulranny, which I haven't played but would like to, was on Tom Doaks highlights list. As Mulranny is not that far from Carne it will hopefully be on my 2015 list. I've also both a little known 18-holer and a little known 9-holer in my sights for 2014.

Maybe 9-holers leave you mentally and physically fresh and wanting more, whereas 18-holers exhaust out the brain and the body more and thus the excitement and enthusiasm wanes. Maybe, maybe not.

ATB

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks gents. I was mostly wondering whether golfers who HAVE great architecture tend to travel mostly for MORE great architecture. (I know this place is a small and unique sample -- but I thought still relevant more generally.) But RJ and Mike Sweeney are right - they both pose the more interesting questions.

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat (or others answering this), have you made the difficult trek to Cabot. 

NO

If not, why not?


The right opportunity never presented itself.


I did make it for all the reasons Pat enumerated.  I have nothing to add.  Loved the whole trip, and I'm sure I will like it even more when Cabot Links is done.

It's on my list, but, before venturing North I was contemplating a west coast swing with my youngest son this summer.

Another factor that I didn't mention was the weather.
There was a time when I played courses where the ponds had frozen over.
Those days are over.
I prefer and need warm weather without much in the way of precipitation

It is obviously a more difficult trip than to Streamsong, but the difficulty of the trip--and the remoteness of the site--was strangely part of the appeal.  Plus the chance to see what Ben had created--and meet with him to hear about it.

If Ran and a bunch of GCA.com guys were arranging a trip I might be more favorably inclined, versus a solo journey.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney, et. al.,

The notion that my golf is confined to high end ODG courses is beyond moronic.

1.   I play where I'm invited, the good, the bad and the ugly.
2.   I play at courses conducting tournaments
3.   I play at destinations that seem attractive  (Bandon, Steamsong)
4    I play at courses  hosting charity events
5    I play at courses where I'm a member.
6    I try to play at courses that pique my interest.
7    I try to play at courses if I'm traveling and there's a course of interest nearby.
8    I play at resort/convention courses

I rarely play "drive by's" with Bodega being an exception

[Steve Lapper]

Mike Sweeney, et. al.,

The notion that my golf is confined to high end ODG courses is beyond moronic.

1.   I play where I'm invited, the good, the bad and the ugly.
2.   I play at courses conducting tournaments
3.   I play at destinations that seem attractive  (Bandon, Steamsong)
4    I play at courses  hosting charity events
5    I play at courses where I'm a member.
6    I try to play at courses that pique my interest.
7    I try to play at courses if I'm traveling and there's a course of interest nearby.
8    I play at resort/convention courses

I rarely play "drive by's" with Bodega being an exception

Mike, et.al.


Pat IS A ODG!!! Just ask most of his friends!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Lapper,

Remember, you're only as old as the women you feel.

How's the knee coming along ?

[Jud_T]

Guys who eat prime filet and drink vintage Lafite every night occasionally crave a burger and a beer.  I got fat on the former and now am more interested in finding the best of the latter.  When you pay up to play places like Steamsong and Bandon, you know it's gonna be really good.  Finding an off-the-run gem that you haven't seen before is like finding an original Charlie Parker record at a garage sale, just effing sweet.