[Nigel Islam]

Initial apologies to Tom Doak, because I know its like fingernails on a chalkboard when others start using the Doak scale, but I think it is a valid question.  I also know when the new confidential guide comes out it will answer the question. My suspicion is there are several that do not, but I think the 17 states I have played in all likely do. I just thought it would make for some interesting and educational banter. I guess you could throw in Canada and Australia into the mix as well.

Cheers!

[John Kirk]

For starters, I don't think Alaska does.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Doak:

5.Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you're in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don't spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.

6.A very good course, definitely worth a game if you're in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see.  It shouldn't disappoint you.

Probably the only place you can't find a 6 is answered in 5.   

[Brad Tufts]

Does Wyoming have a 6?

I've only played Shooting Star, and (while close) I don't think it really fits the 6 definition.

[Sven Nilsen]

Brad:

Rochelle Ranch is a 5 or 6, but then again I'm not really sure what the difference is between the two as written above.

Sven

[Michael Moore]

Initial apologies to Tom Doak

You can apologize to me as well.  People should get their names attached to scientific processes they create or diseases they discover, not to this sort of thing. Now I've got friends telling me about the "Doak 8" they saw walking down the street in a summer dress. I can't take it.

[JMEvensky]

 Now I've got friends telling me about the "Doak 8" they saw walking down the street in a summer dress. I can't take it.

 The ones with the great layouts always have drawbacks.

[Nigel Islam]

Well I figured 6 is a good cut off point because I know there are a lot of states that likely lack 7s. I figure everywhere, save Alaska(I am assuming) has a 5. What about New Hampshire, Mississippi, Louisiana, and North Dakota?

[Matt Glore]

Certainly not Louisiana.  Mississippi should with Old Waverly and others.

[Nigel Islam]

Initial apologies to Tom Doak

You can apologize to me as well.  People should get their names attached to scientific processes they create or diseases they discover, not to this sort of thing. Now I've got friends telling me about the "Doak 8" they saw walking down the street in a summer dress. I can't take it.

I am actually using it in the correct context, but I am sorry Michael. I guess my thread will only get a 3.64 on the Tigerman/Doak scale.

[Mike Nuzzo]

The Bluffs on Thompson Creek was good enough to qualify Louisiana

[Tom_Doak]

Nigel:

It's a fair question.  I don't know the answer yet, because my research for Volume 2 will come over the next two winters -- I still haven't seen any of the courses mentioned in Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, or for that matter Wyoming.  Scouting reports indicate that most of these states have a course or two that is a contender for a 6.

There are three states where I have played some of the contenders and have yet to award a 6:  New Hampshire, Kentucky, and Iowa.  Wakonda would be a 6 if they fixed it up, but they haven't.  Valhalla would be a 6 for most people, just not me.  I've also yet to decide whether any of the courses I played on the North Dakota Golf Trail really deserve a 6 ... they will need to catch me in a generous mood.

P.S.  I don't intend to go to Alaska at all, unless my wife wants to.

[Jason Thurman]

Tom, have you seen The Harvester in Iowa? If so, what holds it back from being a 6? It's awfully good, and I find it to have an especially high number of really original holes that make it particularly interesting for anyone interested in great golf architecture.

I'm guessing you haven't seen Idle Hour in Kentucky, at least not since the 2008 renovation. I'd rate Valhalla higher than you, but I think we'd largely agree on the merits of Idle Hour.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Idle Hour in Lexington should certainly help the Kentucky cause. It's very good.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I also had good company and a great meal at the Bluffs, so that may have helped - I'm rethinking my earlier qualification.
I'd be surprised if Alotian Club was lower than a 6 in Arkansas.
Cheers

[Matt Glore]

The Bluffs on Thompson Creek was good enough to qualify Louisiana

I hope to be there in two weeks and I'll give it my best GCA evaluation.  

[J_ Crisham]

Iowa has 3 serious contenders for a 6 : Wakonda- looked terrific when I visited in Septemeber.  Harvester as mentioned previously. Cedar Rapids CC , is a Ross that Ron Prichard is in the process of restoring. The bones of the course are pretty solid. Nice movement to the property with green complexes that are being recaptured. I was very impressed with CRCC- in fact I watched Tyler Rae shape some bunkers and they look very similar to what is at Skokie or Evanston. The property is certainly more interesting than both Skokie and Evanston. I look for Cedar Rapids to get some attention when the work is completed.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I think that Squires Creek is also worthy of a six in La
I will second Old Waverly in Mississippi as a six
In Arkansas I think we have three or evn four sixes..Alotian,Pleasant Valley,Texarkana CC and The Blessings.

[JMEvensky]

In Arkansas I think we have three or evn four sixes..Alotian,Pleasant Valley,Texarkana CC and The Blessings.

How would you rate Hardscrabble? 

You prefer PV to CC of LR?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Hardscrabble would be my next choice and would be a six to me.
CCLR a slight notch below the others a 5.75

In fact here are my numbers.
Alotian 7.0..
Texarkana CC 6.65
Pleasant Valley 6.55
The Blessings 6.55
Hardscrabble 6.45

[J_ Crisham]

I think that Squires Creek is also worthy of a six in La
I will second Old Waverly in Mississippi as a six
In Arkansas I think we have three or evn four sixes..Alotian,Pleasant Valley,Texarkana CC and The Blessings.

Alotian is at least an 8 maybe a 9. Some of the best greens complexes I've played. Conditioning impeccable.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

JC..Perhaps I just grade a little harder.
My 9's would be Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Merion, and I cannot say that The Alotian as a course is that high.
As a club with all the frills, probably an eleven and it is a good course, but it still reminds me of several other Fazio layouts.
I truly believe that the property is worthy of an 8/9 but not with the style chosen, and I would love to have seen what a C&C , Doak and especially Mike Devries would hace done with the property.
I think Mike would have better used the spectacular undulations and vistas...but that is purely an opinion.

[Richard Choi]

Alotian is at least an 8 maybe a 9. Some of the best greens complexes I've played. Conditioning impeccable.

If you believe impeccable conditioning merits 8 or 9 on Tom's scale, I think you are at a wrong message board...

[Brad Tufts]

Vis-a-vis New Hampshire...

I would say Manchester CC is a 6 with recently expanded green complexes.  The Balsams is also a 6, but it's been 10 years since I played there, and nobody ever randomly passes through Dixville Notch.  Lake Sunapee is a Ross that is close if not a 6.

On the modern side, GC of New England (Palmer group) is pretty good, and so is Portsmouth CC (RTJ).  Both in the 5-6 range.  I have not seen Baker Hill or Montcalm, but have heard they are decent too.  Lake Winnipesaukee is pretty good but strange in a few spots.

Bretton Woods and Hanover are both fun, and I have a soft spot for HCC especially, but both flip back and forth between pedestrian and awesome.  Probably 5s.

I have not seen Bald Peak, but the comments I hear are more "retreat" and "enclave" so much as great golf...will have to get there someday.

I may be missing one or two.

[J_ Crisham]

Alotian is at least an 8 maybe a 9. Some of the best greens complexes I've played. Conditioning impeccable.

If you believe impeccable conditioning merits 8 or 9 on Tom's scale, I think you are at a wrong message board...

Richard,  How many times have you played Alotian? What would you give it?

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