Is an architect

[Patrick_Mucci]

without a style a prisoner of the land ?

I was listening to Willie Nelson, Neil Young and Ray Charles and was struck by the distinctive nature of their voices, an earmark of their style.

One only has to hear a few notes to know who's voice is producing those sounds.

Then I thought about architecture and distinctive qualities that identify styles and the producer of those styles.

Is an architect without a style equivalent to a carpet layer ?

http://youtu.be/x8A9Y1Dq_cQ

http://youtu.be/u925g6CgKuw

http://youtu.be/9gKwjxF7ilI

[Ally Mcintosh]

An architect without a style has the freedom of the land...

[Patrick_Mucci]

An architect without a style has the freedom of the land...

Then, he's a prisoner of the land, and can only produce what the land will yield in it's unaltered state.

[Tom_Doak]

An architect without a style has the freedom of the land...

Then, he's a prisoner of the land, and can only produce what the land will yield in it's unaltered state.

In my case, trying not to impose a style on the land is a choice.  I think we could build a course in almost any style if I wanted to.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

If you had to identify a Tom Doak "style", what would it be ?

One could maintain that the C&C style lies within their greens and beyond.

Pete Dye's ?

Surely, there's an element of your designs that could be referred to as a "style"

[Mike_Young]

TD says it best above.  IMHO golf design or any other design is much like a musician's voice.  The musician really can't change what comes to him naturally without getting into a lot of trouble.  Same with TW golf swing or a pitcher's delivery.  Marilyn Monroe make have changed her hair style or her dress but her style remained.  
But all of the above evolve and some make consider that a change of style...I will say that for many of the signature golf pro designers the style changes as their lead designer changes.  I can usually tell you which designer designed which course for most of the sigs.  For example:  I enjoy JN/JL designs very much....yet many of the JN/BC designs never fit my eye....

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, do you define style as construction technique, artistic expression, or something else?

When you throw in web-links to a couple musical presentations, we have an interesting style question, and it may be a stretch to try and compare a couple of Neil Young offerings from different decades, with style of an architect, if there is such a thing.  

To turn it around: is an architect a prisoner of a construction technique style regardless of land characteristics?  If so, then not much ability to express aesthetic value or appeal may be the result.  

Did you use Neil Young example because of his voice, or his acoustic guitar technique or his poetry?  Do you think "heart of gold" is the same theme or style as "helpless"?  I don't know what you are getting at with the collaboration of Ray Charles and Willie Nelson on "seven spanish angels".   There are very smart musical guys on GCA that might guide us in the analogy of what links you offered in musical offerings by different artists to your question of architect styles and prisoners of the land.  

All I can come up with is, GC archies shouldn't let their techniques of construction relating to their presentation of a repeating aethetic they are attempting to portray, be imposed on varying land parcels.  The land has to suggest the technique/style used, and how that conveys what they want the golfer to feel as they explore the course.  Adaptability seems to be the key to talent, IMHO.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, do you define style as construction technique, artistic expression, or something else?

Visual perception

When you throw in web-links to a couple musical presentations, we have an interesting style question, and it may be a stretch to try and compare a couple of Neil Young offerings from different decades, with style of an architect, if there is such a thing.  

To turn it around: is an architect a prisoner of a construction technique style regardless of land characteristics?  If so, then not much ability to express aesthetic value or appeal may be the result.  

That would depend upon the land

Did you use Neil Young example because of his voice, or his acoustic guitar technique or his poetry?  Do you think "heart of gold" is the same theme or style as "helpless"?  I don't know what you are getting at with the collaboration of Ray Charles and Willie Nelson on "seven spanish angels".   There are very smart musical guys on GCA that might guide us in the analogy of what links you offered in musical offerings by different artists to your question of architect styles and prisoners of the land.  

Please reread my opening post as you seem disoriented and confused

All I can come up with is, GC archies shouldn't let their techniques of construction relating to their presentation of a repeating aethetic they are attempting to portray, be imposed on varying land parcels.  The land has to suggest the technique/style used, and how that conveys what they want the golfer to feel as they explore the course.  Adaptability seems to be the key to talent, IMHO.

Construction techniques have nothing to do with it, it's the finished product stupid

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, can you tell the finished style at Cuscowilla is the same guys that built Sand Hills, or Austin CC, or Talking Stick?

Would you know based on finished 'style' that TD was the designer archie of High Point, Beechtree, Rawls, Pacific Dunes, and Cape Kidnappers?

[Cliff Hamm]

Don't all artists have a style?  It is not difficult to tell Renoir from Cézanne, Monet etc.  it only takes a few notes to identify Miles Davis or Keith Jarrett, etc.  The same holds true for movie directors, winemakers, etc.  if you can't identify the style of the artist they simply don't have style.

[Randy Thompson]

Patrick,
Your debating skills are admirable but IF you are implying that having no particular style is a negative trait in today´s current market, then I couldn´t disagree more strongly. If this is the case, then your only rebuttal or exit is to try to convince me, that having no style is a style! Having no style and seeking land that is full of style and adapting your design to bring out or accentuate that style is probably the biggest common dominator to the current markets most successful architects and will continue to be so for the years to come! Not sure how many more of these properties are left in areas that can be combined with a logical profitable producing business plan. As these lands become scarcer you will see a shift in the market to where the cream that rises to the top will be able to take a piece of not so special land like the Olympics course in Rio and produce or manufacture a product that can hold it head up high right alongside the great natural sites. When that happens, we or they will be forced to define a style but that style could vary on a hole by hole basis or a course by course basis and will probably have a finished look similar to what mother-nature would or could have done with the same piece of land.

[Steve Lang]

  Tone or voice is one thing, how about something like Bach Chorales, starting and ending on the same chord, everything in between setting up tension and resolution, now that's a style

[Joe Leenheer]

Art demands style.

If you don't find your own way of expressing your own idea....then you are simply imitating.  I am guilty of this in my own artistic reaches.

I wish I were a GCA...but if I actually got the opportunity...then I would probably crap in my pants, freeze in my footsteps, and do whatever else people do when they think they know something and they really don't.

Kudos to those that are able to interpret the land and put their own mark on it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
Your debating skills are admirable but IF you are implying that having no particular style is a negative trait in today´s current market, then I couldn´t disagree more strongly. If this is the case, then your only rebuttal or exit is to try to convince me, that having no style is a style! Having no style and seeking land that is full of style and adapting your design to bring out or accentuate that style is probably the biggest common dominator to the current markets most successful architects and will continue to be so for the years to come! Not sure how many more of these properties are left in areas that can be combined with a logical profitable producing business plan. As these lands become scarcer you will see a shift in the market to where the cream that rises to the top will be able to take a piece of not so special land like the Olympics course in Rio and produce or manufacture a product that can hold it head up high right alongside the great natural sites. When that happens, we or they will be forced to define a style but that style could vary on a hole by hole basis or a course by course basis and will probably have a finished look similar to what mother-nature would or could have done with the same piece of land.

Randy,

Tell us about the great piece of land at Texas Tech and how Mother Nature provided such a superior canvas !

[Randy Thompson]

Patrick,
I really think that Tom should answer that but for me that is explained in my closing statement when I referred to what will happen when you have a not so special piece of land. Some kind of style will have to be manufactured but I doubt at Texas Tech you will find a certain style there that will be carried on throughout TD career on other future not so strong properties. It takes about three words to identify Neil Young and Rod Stewart. In comparison, I use to like to drive by or see golf courses and guess the architect. For example, Von Hagge and Robert Trent Jones Junior are fairly easy to identify because of their style. Does Texas Tech have a certain style that makes you conclude, of yeah, this is definitely Tom Doak. If so, what are they? He told you on this same thread he chooses not to adapt any particular style and impose it on the land.

[David_Elvins]

I was listening to Willie Nelson, Neil Young and Ray Charles...

Pat, I just hope they did not poison your mind with their left wing lyrics...

[Jud_T]

Pat,

What I've gleaned from my close association with building architects may apply here:  Style sells, since people want to know what they're purchasing beforehand, but doing something unique and original for each client is much more challenging and interesting.

[BCrosby]

Mike Y says it best. Architects don't like to think they have a 'style'.

But they do. In much the same way that we all have personalities. Your style, no less than your personality, is not something you can shed like like an old coat whenever you want to.

Bob

[Philippe Binette]

It's a great question...

even if you just "follow the land"... the routing still remains a reflection of the architect... because he has to choose which track on the land to follow..

but sometimes, just following the land can lead to so plain course if you don't have a great piece of land to work with...

but having a style does not mean moving a lot of dirt !!!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mike Y says it best. Architects don't like to think they have a 'style'.

But they do. In much the same way that we all have personalities. Your style, no less than your personality, is not something you can shed like like an old coat whenever you want to.

Bob

Whilst I tend to agree it all depends on how you see the Architect'a job.  Many choose to market their own style amd that ends up trappin them.  In Pat's example he is equating the Architect with the star and we are literally listening to thier voice, which one shouldn't try to hide.  

Others have referenced Movie Directors...

I defy anyone to define the style  that would allow someone who didn't already know to determine who the director of the following movies was,
The Killing, 2001, A Clockwork Orange, Barry Lyndon.

or the musical arranger of
Frank Sinatra and Countie Basie Live at the Sands, Soul Bossa Nova (as in the Austin Power's Movie) and Michael Jackson's Billie Jean.


I could give examples of theatre directors who vary thier approach based on the story they have to tell, or the Stars they have to work with ,but... they are the exceptions at the top of the tree and for most creatives their style is a limiting factor.


Although he had limited body of work, people are often complimentary about Fowler's ability to adapt to the land he was given to work with.  Hard to define his style.

[Sean_A]

Spangles

So true!  If anyone claims to know Fowler's style be very suspect.  The guy was all over the place and in my experience, nobody can be mentioned in the same sentence as Fowler where variety of designs is concerned.

Ciao  

[BCrosby]

Tony/Sean -

Recognizing a style is not the same thing as being able to define a style. We recognize faces, personalities and golf course styles everyday, but we are incapable (at least I am) of defining how we do that.

Some styles are harder to pick up on than others. And certainly styles evolve. About Fowler, I've only played Walton Heath. But I suspect there are resemblances among his courses. More to the point, I think it unlikely (if not inconceivable) that he started new design projects without benefiting from or being influenced by his prior work.

Bob

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony/Sean -

Recognizing a style is not the same thing as being able to define a style. We recognize faces, personalities and golf course styles everyday, but we are incapable (at least I am) of defining how we do that.

Some styles are harder to pick up on than others. And certainly styles evolve. About Fowler, I've only played Walton Heath. But I suspect there are resemblances among his courses. More to the point, I think it unlikely (if not inconceivable) that he started new design projects without benefiting from or being influenced by his prior work.

Bob

Bob I don't think we are that far apart. Of course every project cannot be as if it was the first, but most have chosen the clothes they wish to be known for wearing (whether they know it or not) and others enjoy trying on the clothes that come with the territory. It's only a few who really adopt the local style correctly.

[Cliff Hamm]

Others have referenced Movie Directors...

I defy anyone to define the style  that would allow someone who didn't already know to determine who the director of the following movies was,
The Killing, 2001, A Clockwork Orange,  Barry Lyndon



[/quote]

A quick Google search revealed this:

http://www.lavideofilmmaker.com/filmmaking/stanley-kubrick-film-techniques.html

Diversity of subject/llandscape does not mean that common elements of technique/style are not seen throughout the works.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Y says it best. Architects don't like to think they have a 'style'.

But they do. In much the same way that we all have personalities. Your style, no less than your personality, is not something you can shed like like an old coat whenever you want to.

Bob,

Completely agree and history would seem to confirm that.

Is anyone going to claim that none of these fellows had a style ?

CB Macdonald
Seth Raynor
Charles Banks
AWT
FLYNN
ROSS
RTJ
Dick Wilson
J Nicklaus