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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2013, 03:10:13 PM »
Tom,

My money's on developing nations.

I suggest you start singing that Willie Nelson song, "Mammas, don't let your babies grow up to be architects"

Pat,
Developing Nations?????
I watched a new member this morning on the practice tee.  He was a young orthopedic surgeon who just moved to town and joined the club.  Just out of residency and just taking up the game.   I honestly don't know if I could take up the game and stay with it at 34 years old.  Tennis is much easier to become proficient.  
Go to South America or Latin America and watch a 40 year old business man try to learn the game and then take that game to a modern signature design.  
Don't fall for that developing nation stuff...it will only work when there are courses easy enough not to be noticed...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Richard Chamberlain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2013, 11:52:16 PM »
Work overseas may be the saving grace for golf course architects.  

I just landed in Australia to hear the latest gossip about an American architect building a project, who is being forced to the sidelines by the locals who have undercut him.


Interesting piece of gossip for sure. Considering there are not too many Seppo's out here building courses its not hard to guess which one.
Love to know who is undercutting him.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2013, 12:07:34 AM »
Work overseas may be the saving grace for golf course architects.  

I just landed in Australia to hear the latest gossip about an American architect building a project, who is being forced to the sidelines by the locals who have undercut him.


Interesting piece of gossip for sure. Considering there are not too many Seppo's out here building courses its not hard to guess which one.
Love to know who is undercutting him.

American=yank, rhymes with tank, to wit septic tank = seppo

Mark_F

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2013, 01:11:51 AM »
Love to know who is undercutting him.

Thomson and Perrett.  Since St Andrews Beach private has bit the dust, they must be desperate for another piece of prime undulating dunes land to screw up.

Richard Chamberlain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2013, 01:21:17 AM »
Love to know who is undercutting him.

Thomson and Perrett.  Since St Andrews Beach private has bit the dust, they must be desperate for another piece of prime undulating dunes land to screw up.
I'll happily give you a boozillion to one about that.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2013, 05:06:21 AM »

It's going to get worse.

The assault on hard working people who achieved success who seek enjoyment in playing golf will continue, unabated, resulting in many clubs going under and the golf and golf coures architecture environment becoming more and more difficult in the U.S.

Pat, without speaking for you, I think I know what you mean. I see many in contemporary society frowning upon golfers, and their sport. Their wish to occupy tracts of beach front land for their own sport excluding others. Many people must view it is an expensive, indulgent and time-sapping activity for the well to do minority. Combine that with the spoilt little rich kid appearance of so many college golfers, and newly-turned PGA pro players, as well as the mega-rich long-time pro players, and it is easy to see why this line of thought is prevalent. On top of it, some admonish fathers from spending time away from their kids, wives, work and homes when they play golf. Heck, even US Presidents have been frowned upon for playing. When Clubs are not helping themselves to survive trying economic times, that only makes the situation worse. Yes, golf (and subsequently the course architecture business) is in a bit of a tough spot currently, but it has been before, and will survive these times too. At least it is not currently being banned by the King as it was centuries ago...

Matthew
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2013, 02:19:03 PM »
Mathew,

The difference is that the clubs that survived over the last 100 years did so in a far more favorable environment that encouraged the development of golf and golf courses.

Those days and that environment are over

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2013, 03:02:52 PM »
You can blame the decline of golf development on the US government or social stigma, (I'm not sure which your referring to) if you want to, but the fact is that it's due to free market forces. If there were enough people with enough desire to play, the market would be there and golf development would be profitable and happening today.

That golf development is being restrained by government interference or social disapproval is a specious argument. Drug use, prostitution, and gambling are also "frowned upon by society", not to mention largely outlawed by the government, but thriving nonetheless.  
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2013, 03:05:54 PM »
Steve,

That's not MY argument, although it may be others.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2013, 03:43:43 PM »
Mathew,

The difference is that the clubs that survived over the last 100 years did so in a far more favorable environment that encouraged the development of golf and golf courses.

Those days and that environment are over

What is the change of environment to which you allude?
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Mark_F

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2013, 05:38:32 PM »
What is the change of environment to which you allude?

Steve,

I would venture to say that Patrick is referring to the onerous amount of taxation that millionaires in the USA have to pay - they just don't have the discretionary income they used to.

The simple fact is that the last thirty years of unadulterated capitalism has resulted in too much of everything.  There are too many long/boring uninteresting courses that deserve to fail.  There surely has to be a market for architects to turn these crackhouse golf courses into more interesting, fun courses that don't take so long to play, don't retain interest in the long term and cost too much to maintain.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2013, 06:05:23 PM »
What is the change of environment to which you allude?

Steve,

I would venture to say that Patrick is referring to the onerous amount of taxation that millionaires in the USA have to pay - they just don't have the discretionary income they used to.

Mark,

How disingenuous of you to couch increased to oppressive taxation solely in the realm of millionaires.
Onerous and debilitating taxation reaches much, much further down the income ladder.

Ask those who work for a living how they greeted their payroll deductions in the first weeks of January 2013 and how they'll greet additional deductions in 2014.


The simple fact is that the last thirty years of unadulterated capitalism has resulted in too much of everything.  

Once again, you disingenuously label the efforts of hard working people as "unadulterated capitalism" proving how out of touch you are with the cross section of working Americans.

Explain to us how "unadulterated capitalism" existed in Bangor, ME, Des Moines, IA, Abiline, TX, Bozeman, MT and Union, NJ, just to name a few locales


There are too many long/boring uninteresting courses that deserve to fail.

Which ones are they ?

And who are you to decree that courses deserve to fail because you generalize them as long, boring and uninteresting ?
Why don't you identify those courses for us, since you seem to be the expert on evaluations
 

There surely has to be a market for architects to turn these crackhouse golf courses into more interesting, fun courses that don't take so long to play, don't retain interest in the long term and cost too much to maintain.

If the money isn't there, do you think the architects will make the miracle transformations you allude to, gratis ?
 

Mark_F

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2013, 07:17:04 PM »
How disingenuous of you to couch increased to oppressive taxation solely in the realm of millionaires.
Onerous and debilitating taxation reaches much, much further down the income ladder.

Patrick, can you please detail for me the onerous taxation increases that those on less than $100,000 per year are facing in the USA?  From where I sit, the burden of increased taxation in the USA is falling on those who earn (much)more than that - like you. ;D

The onerous burden you refer to however, would be much less, would it not, if all of those millionaires were actually paying tax instead of the much lower rates applicable to their dividends and capital gains income?  If all of those Fortune 500 and multinational companies actually paid tax instead of funnelling it through so many IP entities no one can ever figure out who owns what and where?

Ask those who work for a living how they greeted their payroll deductions in the first weeks of January 2013 and how they'll greet additional deductions in 2014.

I have survived on $20,000 a year for the past three years of studying, which has included membership of a Sandbelt club and the odd luxury purchase like socks.  It's a matter of priority.  If the government is taxing you more, and you want to play golf, do you really need three Latte's a day?  You need to cut your cloth to suit. Something people have forgotten about in this era of abundant, cheap credit.

Once again, you disingenuously label the efforts of hard working people as "unadulterated capitalism" proving how out of touch you are with the cross section of working Americans.

Explain to us how "unadulterated capitalism" existed in Bangor, ME, Des Moines, IA, Abiline, TX, Bozeman, MT and Union, NJ, just to name a few locales

The destruction of industry by Thatcher and Reagan has affected millions of ordinary, everyday people.  What the GFC is slowly revealing to all but the most ignorant is just what a gigantic Ponzi scheme the world economy has been for the last thirty years.  

People have bought houses they can't afford, SUVs they don't need, joined golf clubs they don't play, all to keep the credit economy ticking over.  Real jobs have disappeared and been replaced by low-paying service jobs reliant upon other people having more money to spend than them.  Utilities have been privatised and seen the basic cost of essentials skyrocket to the point that many older people die in winter because they can't afford to heat their homes.  This of course means more land has to be put aside for cemeteries instead of private housing estates, which affects the construction industry, and means people go from gaining high paying employment as a carpenter, to a $5 an hour job digging holes in the ground.

It's been about 20 years since I was actually in Bangor, Des Moines and Bozeman, so my knowledge may be a little rusty, but I seem to recall a rather large and disastrous monstrosity of a shopping mall in Bangor that perfectly exemplifies the negative effects of unadulterated capitalism.  Such shopping barns have sprung up all over the US and UK, leading to the destruction of smaller businesses in favour of low-paying mass market jobs who sell the same goods as the shopping barn ten miles away.

I was also quite upset that there wasn't a Stephen King organised bus tour, and I had to find my way to his house by myself.  You would have thought somewhere there would be an enterprising young college graduate printing off maps, but I guess when you have been burdened with a $100,000 college debt, you go to Los Angeles and get naked if you have the equipment, and West Hollywood if you don't.

I don't actually recall much about Des Moines, except that it was kind of boring - apologies to the Mayor of Des Moines if he is reading this - and Bozeman was another excellent example of the negative effects of capitalism.  I seem to recall a town almost entirely reliant on the service sector?

Which ones are they ?

Trump Scotland, anything else with Trump in the name, National Ocean, Moonah Open and Legends, Rosapenna Sandy Hills, any TPC course, any course designed by Nicklaus or Rees Jones, some boring course in Oregon called Sun something, which seemed about 8000 yards long in 1996.

And who are you to decree that courses deserve to fail because you generalize them as long, boring and uninteresting?
Can you give me an example of a long, boring and uninteresting course that deserves to prosper?

If the money isn't there, do you think the architects will make the miracle transformations you allude to, gratis?

Of course not.  Please point out to me where I said I would.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2013, 08:59:04 PM »

How disingenuous of you to couch increased to oppressive taxation solely in the realm of millionaires.
Onerous and debilitating taxation reaches much, much further down the income ladder.

Patrick, can you please detail for me the onerous taxation increases that those on less than $100,000 per year are facing in the USA?  
From where I sit, the burden of increased taxation in the USA is falling on those who earn (much)more than that - like you. ;D

So now you're trying to shift the absurd focus of your threshold from people making $, 1,000,000 to people making less than $ 100,000.

Do you think that it's people who make less than $ 100,000 who make up most of the memberships in private clubs ?

To answer your question, since Justice Roberts declared Obamacare a "tax", consider this.
In today's Newark Star Ledger, it was reported that insurance provided to "Small Groups" (2-51 lives) in New Jersey were experiencing rate increases due to Obamacare of 68 %, 43 %, 40 % and 70 %.  And, in many cases, benefits for those same plans have been pared.

It's not untypical for annual costs for "Small Group" plans to run $ 6,000 to $ 8,000 to $ 10,000 and higher for Single coverage and $ 15,000 to $ 20,000 to $ 30,000 and higher for Family coverage.  
Not long ago, I saw a mediocre plan where the Single rate was $ 26,000 and the Family rate $ 50,000.
Mind boggling isn't it.

Monthly premium contributions between employer and employee can typically run 50 % - 50 %, so, I'll let you do the math to figure out the "tax"  impact on employees making less than $ 100,000.  It's significant, and it's worse than just the premium contributions, since when benefits are pared, out-of-pocket costs for claims actually incurred are higher.

In short, the hard working Middle Class is getting gashed.


The onerous burden you refer to however, would be much less, would it not, if all of those millionaires were actually paying tax instead of the much lower rates applicable to their dividends and capital gains income?  


Your ignorance is stunning.
All of a sudden, hard working people whose compensation is salary or salary and bonus, EARNED INCOME, subject to about a 65 % tax rate in NJ are now miraculously earning money solely through Capital gains.   This is typical reasoning from people ignorant of the facts.

Something else you should know.
When people invest their money, the put it at RISK, and, in order to be subject to Capital Gains rates, they have to hold that investment, they can't churn it at will.

Ask all the people who invested with Bernie Madoff fared with their "Capital Gains"


If all of those Fortune 500 and multinational companies actually paid tax instead of funnelling it through so many IP entities no one can ever figure out who owns what and where?

You can't be that obtuse, can you.
Which ones ?
Your understanding that Fortune 500 companies are the sum total of commerce in the U.S. is beyond moronic.
What about every local company that doesn't have any mulitinational income ?

And, who owns those Fortune 500 companies ?
Pension plans, Unions Welfare Plans, retirees.

What you haven't learned is that when the Government gets more money, they spend more money, they incur more debt, they don't pay the debt down.


Ask those who work for a living how they greeted their payroll deductions in the first weeks of January 2013 and how they'll greet additional deductions in 2014.

I have survived on $20,000 a year for the past three years of studying, which has included membership of a Sandbelt club and the odd luxury purchase like socks.

That explains your moronic understanding of commerce and your desire to engage in class warfare.
Try having a wife and three kids and then tell me how well your family is doing on your $ 20,000 a year income
You're studying ?
Evidently, you missed the class on common sense.
 

It's a matter of priority.  If the government is taxing you more, and you want to play golf, do you really need three Latte's a day?  
You need to cut your cloth to suit. Something people have forgotten about in this era of abundant, cheap credit.

Listen you moron.
I don't need some wet behind the ears student to tell me how to live my life or earn a living.
I've done quite well without your inexperienced, naive, misguided advice.

Get out in the real world, earn a living to support a family, and then get back to us and tell us how you became successful.


Once again, you disingenuously label the efforts of hard working people as "unadulterated capitalism" proving how out of touch you are with the cross section of working Americans.

Explain to us how "unadulterated capitalism" existed in Bangor, ME, Des Moines, IA, Abiline, TX, Bozeman, MT and Union, NJ, just to name a few locales

The destruction of industry by Thatcher and Reagan has affected millions of ordinary, everyday people.  What the GFC is slowly revealing to all but the most ignorant is just what a gigantic Ponzi scheme the world economy has been for the last thirty years.

Spoken like a true moron.
Industry has been destroyed by the likes of you, who demonized hard work and success.
By those who burdened business with onerous legislation and taxes, who forced businesses to move or perish.
Keep on viewing the world as if those two people are responsible for the destruction of industry, it's a nice fairy tale for morons.
 

People have bought houses they can't afford, SUVs they don't need, joined golf clubs they don't play, all to keep the credit economy ticking over.  

So you think that the motivation was a macro conspiracy to keep the "credit economy ticking over"
That people didn't make foolish, individual choices because credit was too easy and the Government in the form of Frank and others and forced banks to lend money to people who couldn't pay it back ?

How old are you and what experience do you have in the work force in the U.S and U.K. ?


Real jobs have disappeared and been replaced by low-paying service jobs reliant upon other people having more money to spend than them.  

What moronic professor told you that ?
Jobs disappeared because Governments, local, county, state and Federal made conducting business untenable.
One only has to look at Cities like Paterson, Elizabeth, Camden and others to see the impact on commerce.

Everyone forgets, including your professors who have no real world experience, that when business is good, labor is good and when business and labor are good, the tax base is good and government can accomplish more, prudently.


Utilities have been privatised and seen the basic cost of essentials skyrocket to the point that many older people die in winter because they can't afford to heat their homes.  

What total nonsense.
So China and the developing world have nothing to do with the cost of raw materials like coal and oil.
Yikes.  Stay in school for another decade or two, that way you can continue to isolate yourself from reality.


This of course means more land has to be put aside for cemeteries instead of private housing estates, which affects the construction industry, and means people go from gaining high paying employment as a carpenter, to a $5 an hour job digging holes in the ground.

I don't know you last flew across the United States, but, I can assure you that there's no shortage of land.
Would you tell us what jurisdiction in the U.S. permits hourly wages of $ 5 an hour.


It's been about 20 years since I was actually in Bangor, Des Moines and Bozeman, so my knowledge may be a little rusty, but I seem to recall a rather large and disastrous monstrosity of a shopping mall in Bangor that perfectly exemplifies the negative effects of unadulterated capitalism.  

I thought you were a student, earning $ 20,000 a year.
How old were you 20 years ago ?

Which Mall, there are only a few of them.
And, who owns that Mall ?


Such shopping barns have sprung up all over the US and UK, leading to the destruction of smaller businesses in favour of low-paying mass market jobs who sell the same goods as the shopping barn ten miles away.

Doesn't the consumer benefit from competition in the Market Place ?

For better or worse, the world has moved away from "Mom & Pop" stores, just curious as to how you classify the introduction of a Mall, with hundreds of vendors, "unadulterated capitalism" ?


I was also quite upset that there wasn't a Stephen King organised bus tour, and I had to find my way to his house by myself.  You would have thought somewhere there would be an enterprising young college graduate printing off maps, but I guess when you have been burdened with a $100,000 college debt, you go to Los Angeles and get naked if you have the equipment, and West Hollywood if you don't.

You seem well informed and far more familiar with those life styles.
So now, college debt is the fault of a Mall operator ?


I don't actually recall much about Des Moines, except that it was kind of boring - apologies to the Mayor of Des Moines if he is reading this - and Bozeman was another excellent example of the negative effects of capitalism.  I seem to recall a town almost entirely reliant on the service sector?

In case you haven't noticed, the U.S. has been trending in that direction for decades, ever since industry and manufacturing were driven to foreign shores by excessive regulation and taxes.


Which ones are they ?

Trump Scotland, anything else with Trump in the name, National Ocean, Moonah Open and Legends, Rosapenna Sandy Hills, any TPC course, any course designed by Nicklaus or Rees Jones, some boring course in Oregon called Sun something, which seemed about 8000 yards long in 1996.

So, these courses are boring ?
Which ones are long ?
Which ones have you played ?
And, from what tees did you play.


And who are you to decree that courses deserve to fail because you generalize them as long, boring and uninteresting?

Can you give me an example of a long, boring and uninteresting course that deserves to prosper?

Once you identify, with specificity, the names of those courses that are "long, boring and uninteresting", I'll tell you which ones deserve to prosper.

Last I looked, Trump's courses were doing fairly well, membership wise.

Which of his courses have you played ?



If the money isn't there, do you think the architects will make the miracle transformations you allude to, gratis?

Of course not.  Please point out to me where I said I would.  

You IMPLIED it, please reread your typed words.



Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2013, 09:52:45 PM »
Pot calling the kettle black....now that is moronic!

...is it possible to get back to the thread topic?
@theflatsticker

Mark_F

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2013, 10:23:01 PM »
Do you think that it's people who make less than $100,000 who make up most of the memberships in private clubs?

In Australia and the UK, yes.  In the US, no.

It's not untypical for annual costs for "Small Group" plans to run $ 6,000 to $ 8,000 to $ 10,000 and higher for Single coverage and $ 15,000 to $ 20,000 to $ 30,000 and higher for Family coverage.  
Not long ago, I saw a mediocre plan where the Single rate was $ 26,000 and the Family rate $ 50,000.

The problem is US health care costs in general, not Obamacare.  Why did it cost my parents $600 in 1971 to have my broken arm set?

In short, the hard working Middle Class is getting gashed.

The hard working middle class has been getting gashed for the last 30 years. Their jobs have disappeared overseas.

All of a sudden, hard working people whose compensation is salary or salary and bonus, EARNED INCOME, subject to about a 65 % tax rate in NJ are now miraculously earning money solely through Capital gains.   This is typical reasoning from people ignorant of the facts.

Can you please tell me which part of the following paragraph is incorrect then Patrick?

"While the top marginal tax rate on ordinary income is 39.6 percent, average rates that a household in the upper income bracket pays are less. Much of the earnings of those in the top income bracket come from capital gains, interest and dividends, which are taxed at a maximum of 20 percent. Also, only income up to $106,800 is subject to payroll taxes of 15.3%, which are paid by the employer and employee, which further reduces the effective rate."

Something else you should know.
When people invest their money, the put it at RISK, and, in order to be subject to Capital Gains rates, they have to hold that investment, they can't churn it at will.

Can you please tell me how much of his own money Henry Paulsen risked when he sold his Goldman stock in 2006?

Your understanding that Fortune 500 companies are the sum total of commerce in the U.S. is beyond moronic.
What about every local company that doesn't have any mulitinational income?

I never said Fortune 500 companies are the sum total of commerce in the US.  You, for some strange reason, undoubtedly believe I implied it.  

And every local company that doesn't have multinational income pays more because those that do escape paying.

What you haven't learned is that when the Government gets more money, they spend more money, they incur more debt, they don't pay the debt down.

I agree. The US governments have been quite good at spending all of that (borrowed) money on needless wars, instead of affordable health care, affordable education and other quality public services.  That's why the USA is a moribund, and, in reality, third world nation.  If it wasn't for the Chinese willing to lend you the money you need to function, you would have been declared bankrupt before the turn of the previous century and learning Mandarin.

Try having a wife and three kids and then tell me how well your family is doing on your $ 20,000 a year income.

Why are people earning only $20,000 a year having three kids?  

Why are there people in the USA only earning $20,000?  

You're studying ?
Evidently, you missed the class on common sense.


I have been studying Musculoskeletal Therapy - common sense doesn't come into it.

Listen you moron.
I don't need some wet behind the ears student to tell me how to live my life or earn a living.
I've done quite well without your inexperienced, naive, misguided advice.

So have many other sociopaths that have made it in business.

Spoken like a true moron.
Industry has been destroyed by the likes of you, who demonized hard work and success.
By those who burdened business with onerous legislation and taxes, who forced businesses to move or perish.

Yes, there's nothing like the burden of worker's compensation insurance, workplace health and safety legislation and environmental regulations to send a company scurrying to China so they can dump all of those carcinogenic chemicals in the local wetlands and rivers without being called to account.

How old are you and what experience do you have in the work force in the U.S and U.K?

I'm 48.  I worked for a few months in the UK in 1987, six months in Canada in 1987, and I had a lemonade stand in Santa Maria California in 1972.  Unfortunately it went bust when I tried to expand into Twinkies and didn't read the market correctly.

What moronic professor told you that?  

No one.  It's a well documented fact.  Wages, in real terms, for the vast majority of workers in the USA, have declined since Reagan was elected.

So China and the developing world have nothing to do with the cost of raw materials like coal and oil.

Given the cost of petrol in the UK and Australia is largely made up of tax, then no. The cost of utilities in those countries has skyrocketed because private enterprise has taken over monopolistic public services and doesn't have to compete.

I thought you were a student, earning $20,000 a year.
How old were you 20 years ago?

28.

Which Mall, there are only a few of them.

I have no idea.  I wasn't expecting to wander much around Bangor, given it's a somewhat rough place, or at least it was in 1992.

Doesn't the consumer benefit from competition in the Market Place?

No.  Because there is no competition.  That's a myth peddled by Free Market advocates like yourself.

For better or worse, the world has moved away from "Mom & Pop" stores, just curious as to how you classify the introduction of a Mall, with hundreds of vendors, "unadulterated capitalism"?

Because the malls are full of chain stores run by conglomerates who only give back to the community when there is a PR benefit to doing so - kind of like the Hells Angels.  Because they sell things people want, not need. Because there is no choice. Because they push out small suppliers in favour of cheap and nasty products imported from third world countries.

In case you haven't noticed, the U.S. has been trending in that direction for decades, ever since industry and manufacturing were driven to foreign shores by excessive regulation and taxes.

Industry and manufacturing have been driven away because it is cheaper to pay Chinese peasants $5 a week for a 15 hour day. No other reason.  Aside from companies like GM, Ford and Chrysler, whose declining position is due to the ego and incompetence of its managers.

So, these courses are boring ?
Which ones are long ?
Which ones have you played ?
And, from what tees did you play.

I haven't played any TPC courses. Given what I see on TV, I have no desire too.  I have played the others.  They are all long.  And boring. And unimaginative. I played from the middle tees on some holes, the back tees on some holes and the forward tees when it didn't look like I could make a forced 250 yard carry over impenetrable bracken.

How many times have you played Sandy Hills, and do you think the world needs more courses like it?

Last I looked, Trump's courses were doing fairly well, membership wise.

Which of his courses have you played ?

I haven't played any Trump courses.  I may play Trump Scotland next time I am there. Do you think Trump's courses and members are going to help foster and develop the game?

You IMPLIED it, please reread your typed words.

I haven't implied anything Patrick.  You have read into it what you want to suit your own arguments.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 11:19:36 PM by Mark Ferguson »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2013, 10:34:45 PM »

Pot calling the kettle black....


HOW SO ?

now that is moronic!

...is it possible to get back to the thread topic?

Sure

As the pool of members, existing and prospective, shrinks due to a faltering economy and higher taxes, reducing disposable income amongst potential candidates, more clubs will experience poor financial health and declining membership numbers.  More local clubs will perish as there won't be enough people who can afford to belong to and support a local club.   If local clubs are to survive, they're going have to reassess every aspect of their operation with an eye toward ruthless efficiency and diminished services.  And that will be a real challenge for full service multi-use clubs.  



Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2013, 10:38:11 PM »

I'll happily give you a boozillion to one about that.
[/quote]

wow that sounds like a lot but is really just your liquor bill at Dan Murphy's  ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2013, 11:05:52 PM »
Mark,

Your ignorance of the U.S. Tax system knows no bounds.

I'll respond in depth tomorrow, but I did want to address one of your responses

You stated:
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"While the top marginal tax rate on ordinary income is 39.6 percent, average rates that a household in the upper income bracket pays are less.
Those are the rates for ONLY ONE TAX.

What about the Social Security Tax of 12.4 %

What about the Medicare tax of 3.8 % ?

That's another 16.2 % on top of 39.6 % or 55.8 %

Add to that New Jersey taxes and you're at 65 %.

And, that doesn't include real estate taxes, sales taxes and miscellaneous taxes.

The other absurdity of your position is that someone making $ 150,000 or $ 250,000 would have any meaningful net income, after taxes and living expenses, to invest.

And why do you assume that any investment will automatically yield a profit or an appreciation of the asset ?

You don't have a clue

Everything is so simple when viewed from the ivory tower of academia.


Much of the earnings of those in the top income bracket come from capital gains, interest and dividends, which are taxed at a maximum of 20 percent.

That's pure B.S

They wouldn't be in the top income bracket if their income came from Capital gains and Dividends.
Interest is taxed at the highest rates, not the lowest rate which you erroneously stated.

You just don't know what you're talking about when it comes to taxes in the U.S.

Stick to subjects where you have some smattering of credible information


 Also, only income up to $106,800 is subject to payroll taxes of 15.3%, which are paid by the employer and employee, which further reduces the effective rate."



You're WRONG AGAIN.

It INCREASES the effective rate you moron.

And Social Security taxes are levied against income in excess of $ 106,800

In addition, there is NO limit on Medicare taxes.

Stick to the business and tax climate in Australia, as you might know something about them

Mark_F

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2013, 11:16:39 PM »
You stated:[/color][/color][/size]

Patrick,

It might do you a whole lot of good to pay more attention to things.  I didn't state anything.  The paragraph you have dissected was in quotes, hence someone else wrote it, hence why I was asking if you agreed with it.

Clearly, you don't.  ;D

BCowan

Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2013, 11:51:13 PM »
  Back to the thread, i feel you learn much more in the field and on the job training than in college (IMO).  You sell yourself (IMO) and you work long hours and if you have passion you will go far!  I was in a LARCH program and i learned more working golf course construction.  Many of the famous bunkers i saw shaped, were by green card Mexicans (which is really cool, making my point).  I enjoyed getting my hands dirty and working and learned much more than in school.  The difference i wasn't encuring debt either!
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 11:52:46 PM by BCowan »

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2013, 12:14:38 AM »
potential golfers are now biking, hiking, climbing, surfing, running, cross-fitting, surfing, hang-gliding, or whatever...while just buying the equipment and not paying additional green fees

the constant costs of golf in all forms are not sustainable in our current and future economy
It's all about the golf!

John Crowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2013, 01:16:39 AM »
I'm new here.
After reading most of the green ink in this thread I have a question. Is this a golf blog site?

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2013, 03:16:10 AM »
Except for a very select few, I see the golf course design business moving back toward a more regional business, very quickly now.  And, honestly, the game would probably be better for it.  Which is why I'm training disciples from different parts of the world, to try and have an influence on the future.


I actually have a picture from when Tom last got this group together for dinner.


Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Cautionary Tale for all of the Architecture Students
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2013, 04:28:09 AM »
potential golfers are now biking, hiking, climbing, surfing, running, cross-fitting, surfing, hang-gliding, or whatever...while just buying the equipment and not paying additional green fees

the constant costs of golf in all forms are not sustainable in our current and future economy


I spend a lot of my time doing about half those things, which is one of the reasons I have no interest in being a member of a club, even though I could afford it.  Perhaps the "club" model of golf will mostly die out, but I don't personally think that's a bad thing.  Great courses will survive based on that, and less great courses will be converted to daily fee, or sold for development.  That's life.

If Patrick is seeing a larger numbers of clubs struggling and failing recently, it probably has more to do with the economy over the past five years as well as the Tiger induced golf bubble that's inevitably bursting now than it does Obamacare.  He seems to have a desire to turn discussions political - nothing gets the green ink flowing like someone questioning his political beliefs.  Next he'll argue that Obamacare is going to kill the tour, because the poor bastard who is 125th on the list can't possibly get by on $650K a year at the higher tax rate.  ::)
My hovercraft is full of eels.