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Gib_Papazian

Putting aside my megaphonic rant at Choi-boy on the chick thread, I’ve long tried to figure out a solution to the problem of presenting an appropriate challenge for women, seniors and youngsters. My sympathies grow as the length of my truncated backswing continues to shrink.

We’ve already discussed to death punitive architecture and/or alternate tees far enough forward to parrot the intended shot values and sequence of longer hitters. Uncle George and I once had a competitive match with the great Charlie Ferguson at Fishers Island; the 81 year-old carded his age from tees specifically positioned to provide their older members a shot at enjoying the game.

Upon my return I jumped into a cart with our buttonholed Superintendent (John Fleming R.I.P.), jabbering enthusiastically that I’d discovered the fountain of youth for my father and his coterie - most of whom had traded in their golf clubs for domino tiles out of frustration.

John took a pad full of notes and very quietly went to work. To my dismay - although most of those tees are still in play on the Lake Course today - none of my father’s friends would play the newly christened “Senior Markers” because they were green - and in front of the red (read: women’s) tees.

For you dwellers along America’s eastern wall, I am aware some clubs (like NGLA) designate red tees as the back markers; on the left coast, “red” means girl’s tees - and that bunch of tough old birds from the Greatest Generation would have none of it.

Back in my caddy days at Burlingame Country Club, a group of lady members adopted me into their group, apparently unaware their favorite bag toter was a weed smoking potty mouth with a particular fondness for their perky blouses and tanned tennis legs.

Their upper-crust husbands - which included the taciturn Der Bingle - found my shoulder length locks and chatty nature grating at best. The hottie spouses must have found my smarmy doting and discursive patter amusing, although I drove our Caddie Master John Shanley absolutely bat shit.

As 80% of my rounds were packing for the ladies golf section (or a regular foursome of older men in their mid-70’s), it gave me a chance to thoroughly observe the game through the eyes of weaker players; make no mistake though, these gals would still be considered good players today.

It got to the point where I began to “see” the course through the eyes of my players and learned where all the kick points and ground-game opportunities were. It always struck me the game must get terribly boring hitting driver-4 wood-short iron-putter to most of the par-4s and the same on par-5s - except add in one more fairway wood.

With the exception of the ultra-short par-3 ninth hole at BCC, the rest of the one-shotters are either impossibly long or feature a putting surface not designed to accommodate the ball flight off a lower trajectory bat. They were playing a completely different game as me - on a layout with hopelessly inappropriate strategic arrangements and geometries.

I don’t think a modern day Marion Hollins is going to ride in with a pot of gold and resurrect Women’s National Golf Club - which might actually inspire some affirmative rethinking of golf architecture for women and seniors.

On that subject, it has always seemed odd to me - given the billions of discretionary dollars women control in America - why a heavy hitter like Meg Whitman or Carly Fiorina don’t purchase some land and hire an architect to build a golf club for chicks only. If 20% of the golfers are gals, the pool ought to be large enough to support at least one track in every metropolitan area.

Here is my idea which - like the ERC II - would likely lead to some screaming arguments. All the whining about the distance the ball flies has led some to suggest we rein in the engineers and slow down the pellet to keep classic layouts relevant in the modern era.

The manufacturers will forever fight, lobby and sue to keep their arms race going because, like it or not, that is the essence of competition and capitalism - and the genie is out of the bottle.  

Everybody pontificates about a standardized tournament ball for Tour Players, but getting the public to accept it - and the various organizations to agree and enforce it - is a fool’s errand. Golf has been thoroughly poisoned by greed, avarice, technology and false promises you can buy a lower score at Golf Mart.

But these challenges to the integrity of our game really only apply to men and highly skilled, elite women. Everybody else needs all the help they can get in terms of making the game more playable - and therefore enjoyable.

Since the ball manufacturers already have a staff of white smocked, clipboard carrying, aerodynamics geek geniuses, why not sic them on coming up with a ball SPECIFICALLY FOR WOMEN AND SENIORS. One that flies drastically further than the current choices available.

Many of the problems presented for women and seniors would be ameliorated. How you determine who gets to play this “superball” (and when),  I’ve got no working hypothesis yet. If Constance Havershire can suddenly hit the par-4s in two on a 6200 yard course, it would be like a new life.      

There are  a thousand arguments against speeding up the ball for a specific segment of the market, but if we are trying to grow the game by stimulating interest in the female demographic, what is the harm?

It might be time to encourage everybody to enjoy the game as they please with the ball that suits them. Otherwise, we can compel architects to design eight sets of tees on every course to accommodate everybody from Tour Players to Senior Women.

Ran may very well ban me from the kingdom as a dangerous heretic, but this solution is better than empty tee sheets and continuing to inflict a deadly dull tape-loop of whack-whack-whack-chip-putt-putt on 25% of the golfing populace.  
 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 12:09:44 AM by Gib Papazian »

Bill_McBride

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 03:36:34 PM »
I for one, closing in on 72 and getting shorter off the tee than ever, would LOVE a longer ball.  I tried those Wilson Fifty 50 compression balls and gained a couple of yards. Not to mention $20 a dozen.  

JLahrman

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 03:36:50 PM »
Mr. Gib,

If this ball could be produced using current technology, wouldn't somebody have already hired John Cleese to hawk it?

Hope all is well. I hope that our meeting at dinner last April will not be our only encounter. However, my subsequent move to Texas and impending birth of child #2 are not factors that are working in favor of achieving that goal.

Nigel Islam

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 03:49:18 PM »
Gib, I think your idea is outstanding. But, I think the laws of physics and recent history is going to work against you. Those yellow top flites you probably used on caddie day at Burligame that were as long as your hair are probably still the best balls for women and seniors.  Technology has allowed the old balatas to catch up those balls in distance in the reincarnated form of the prov1. Thus people with swing speeds of 110 have gained 30-50 yards and the rest of us mortals have gained 5-10. Cheer up though I just got done watching a special on Henry VIII and heretics such as yourself used to suffer a far worse fate than internet bullying ;)

Gib_Papazian

Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 03:55:08 PM »
What I am suggesting is - for the purpose of this special ball only - to throw all the current rules into the trash regarding what materials, dimple patterns, weight restrictions and whatnot are deemed "conforming" or "not conforming."

I guarantee you that with available technology, core materials and computer models with no constraints, the industry could come up with a ball that flies 50% farther within a fortnight.

Think of the old "Wham-O Super Ball" from the 1960s. With an extremely live core, even minimal force at impact would fly like a rocket - which is the idea. How to make it stop on the green is another matter, but most women struggle with extremely low ball flight into putting surfaces as it is.        
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 04:19:28 PM by Gib Papazian »

Richard Choi

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2013, 04:02:53 PM »
It is a fantastic idea that is long overdue. It is cheaper to bifurcate balls rather than bifurcate tees. I don't understand why one is allowed and other isn't.

-Choiboy

Gary Slatter

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2013, 04:25:13 PM »
Good idea Gib, make it explode if your swing speed is over 90mph!   Could be smaller, I sure some company would be able to make them.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Dan Kelly

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 04:28:14 PM »
Is this you at the end, Gib?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0_PjJBC8gU

(Surprised to see you, of all people, being the champion of Affirmative Action in golf!)
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2013, 04:35:42 PM »
Gib,

What gets lost in these discussions is the cost of the current inventory.
What happens to those golf balls when a new product is introduced ?
When discussing this issue and the current ball versus a "competition" ball, it was estimated that $ 500,000,000 in inventory would be lost if the new ball's use was mandated.  Even with a gradual compliance schedule, there's a cost involved.

What also gets lost is the conflict between the cost to design and produce a "target market" ball, in conjunction with the ultimate question, answered by your father's friends, "will they play it" ?

In recent discussions with a former USGA President, bifurcation seems to be a difficult issue with far more moving parts than we've discovered.

For example, in a competition, who gets to use what ball.

You can't, even at the local club level, have competitors using two balls which are dramatically different in their performance.

So, on the surface, the solution seems simple, but, I can assure you that there's far more to it.

By the way, a shorter backswing is the bane of the aged, hence, I would suggest that you swing a "Momentus" weighted driver every day, but, don't swing it in typical fashion, swing it so that when you get to the top of your swing, you push back and STRETCH as far back as you can.  Ditto on your follow through.  You'll improve the length of your swing, your strength and balance.

Good luck
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 05:24:35 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 04:37:30 PM »
Point of Gib's thread-opening post:

"It might be time to encourage everybody to enjoy the game as they please with the ball that suits them. Otherwise, we can compel architects to design eight sets of tees on every course to accommodate everybody from Tour Players to Senior Women. "

Number of mini-paragraphs it took to state "here is my point": 12

Number of mini-paragraphs it took from then on to actually get there: 7

Hysterical...thanks for all the lead-in and preface.
Coming in 2024
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Rich Goodale

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 04:47:55 PM »
Gib

You are essentially arguing for multifurcation, and you are right, if you want the game to flourish.  Let's keep some standards for competitive golf, but for the other 99% of rounds that are played, let a thousand flowers bloom!

Rich

Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

JMEvensky

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 04:58:44 PM »
Gib

You are essentially arguing for multifurcation, and you are right, if you want the game to flourish.  Let's keep some standards for competitive golf, but for the other 99% of rounds that are played, let a thousand flowers bloom!

Rich



Wait,time out.There was a time when you espoused the "bifurcation will lead back to unification" theory.

Where the hell will multifurcation lead?(BTW--you should trademark multifurcation before it becomes just another Kleenex or Frigidaire)

Dwight Phelps

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 05:04:47 PM »
This thread title makes it very difficult to take this seriously.

In light of that, this problem is obviously and easily solved by selling and eating our young.
"We forget that the playing of golf should be a delightful expression of freedom" - Max Behr

Pete_Pittock

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 05:12:58 PM »
+1.   

Years ago in company tournaments I would play a cayman ball and the rest of the field used normal balls. Now I want the reverse.
Handicapping would become the elephant in the room.

David_Elvins

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 05:17:48 PM »
Gib,

I am going to disagree with you (and it seems almost everyone else).  

Golf is a great teacher of lessons that can be used throughout life.

Surely one of life's big lessons is to learn to grow old gracefully and accept your increasing limitations?  To be thankful for what you can do and accept what you can no longer do.



« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 05:20:23 PM by David_Elvins »
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Richard Choi

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2013, 06:24:24 PM »
Then why do we have multiple tees?

Either offering graduated challenge is fine and both ball and tee variations are okay, all graduated challenge should be abolished and ever one plays the exact same course and ball.

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2013, 06:55:13 PM »
I certainly don't intend to burn anyone at the stake who recently took a 35-14 drubbing at the hands of the state supported UCLA Bruins, but......

Two points.  What is wrong with "hitting driver, 4 wood and iron to the green of a par 4.  If the putt is made, think of the satisfaction.  Tour pros hit par 5's in two, but I attain considerable satisfaction in reaching a par 5 in 3 shots and making a putt for a 4, less so, but still I am satisfied to two putt for a 5.  Remember par is just a number that hasn't added much pleasure to golf.

Second point.  If those ladies skip over the green on some par 3 because of the flight of their ball, then the hole has been improperly laid out to prevent someone from running up the shot onto the green.  Don't change equipment because modern architecture is mediocre.

Such is life, don't try and manipulate the laws of nature.  Occasionally the Bruins prevail, it just makes it that much better(for USC fans) when the Trojans put a little more money and effort into their football program to reach their desired excellence.

What else are you advocating today.  We all enjoy your writing.  Give me something else in which to respond. You are the west coast version of Pat Conroy.  Did you ever meet him when he lived in SF?
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

RJ_Daley

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2013, 06:57:42 PM »
As one who just also crossed the Medicare boundary, I am also more of a mind as David Elvins, and Dirty Harry, "a man's just gots to know his limitations.'  

This Whammo ball, as Gib alludes, with supercharged COR or whatever makes it go further, also seems to have the problem that once it is sent bounding at supercharged explosion off the club face, has the equal problem of landing, particularly if it lands on the firm and fast surfaces we taut so much.  Like Gib wonders, how does it hold the green?  Then, one hopes the rocket scientists spreading fairy nano-dust on the new ball surfaces would have to figure out the unpredictable improbably bounces, if at all like the Whammo ball shown in the video.  

I play with Steve the Marine (as I call him).  He will be 82 in a couple weeks.  He still hits it on average about 210-15 off the tee, 220-30 if he really catches it.  By contrast, we also have a guy 73 in our group who has really lost yardage and hits it about 180 to 200 tops, if he catches it good.  So, the 73 year old uses a senior gold tee, and Steve still stays at the member white tee.  When I suggest he ought to move up, he shoots me a look that must have struck terror in young troops under his charge being tasked with something and asking, why or what!   :o  

The point is the same as Gib's account of his guys not going to move up to 'the girls tees' or even up further to the super senior tees that are even shorter than women's.  

Too many tees = added maintenance costs, and sparce usage, too many ball specs, a marketting and handicapping nightmare.  And one other thing.... old dudes like to play our small change betting games.  Particularly old grumpy men are going to argue endlessly about the disparities as I explained above where a guy a decade older (82) can still hit it 215, and the young pup 74, moves up several yards.  I think it just better to have the handicap of what the 2 fellows shoot at the same tee and play that, accept the limitations of age, and keep it as simple as possible.  

The only bifurcation I think worth a try is the elite male PGA and top Pro-Am Opens.  Then, use a competition ball set by the sponsoring organizations to force use of a ball with the lower dynamics that takes ~10% off the ball at 300yards.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Chris Kane

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2013, 07:05:44 PM »
Surely one of life's big lessons is to learn to grow old gracefully and accept your increasing limitations?  To be thankful for what you can do and accept what you can no longer do.
Agreed. Making golf easier for older people would be the death knell for lawn bowls.

Mike_Young

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2013, 07:09:22 PM »
The problem with the tee bifurcation IMHO is the second shot.  The ball is a much more fair method....no company needs permission to do it...I would hope it happens soon. :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Elvins

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2013, 07:15:09 PM »
Mike,

The problem with any sort of bifurcation is that it assumes there are two types of golfers.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mike_Young

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2013, 07:37:58 PM »
Mike,

The problem with any sort of bifurcation is that it assumes there are two types of golfers.
But Dvid that is the problem.  there are two types that use the courses.  There are those that play golf and there are golfers. :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2013, 08:17:06 PM »
Golf is a great teacher of lessons that can be used throughout life.

Surely one of life's big lessons is to learn to grow old gracefully and accept your increasing limitations?  To be thankful for what you can do and accept what you can no longer do.


A generation of baby boomers will disagree with that, methinks.  We have had (most) everything handed to us since birth, no?  We expect to stay young, no?  Granted, not all, but enough to have taken coddling to all time highs, at least imo.

got to give the audience what they came for.....IMHO
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2013, 08:23:36 PM »
My generation is the first generation to hit the ball further at 55 than at 30.  The guys that came of age during the ProV1 will lose distance as they age....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re: A Modest Proposal . . . . . . . please don't burn me at the stake.
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2013, 08:25:55 PM »
My generation is the first generation to hit the ball further at 55 than at 30.  The guys that came of age during the ProV1 will lose distance as they age....

Not this old boy.....

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