What's the cost/value of golf as part of a private club membership?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat and Roger,  I couldn't agree more.  roger's pool example is not uncommon.  Pat, absent tremendous liquor volume, you are directly on point.  My suggestion was that increasing social memberships to stimulate f&b, absent significant dues, is likely to backfire if the motivation is economic.  I think we agree

Shel,

Clubs and restaurants have seen liquor consumption decrease dramatically over the years as DWI has taken on a higher profile and is enforced with more severe penalties.

Years ago, I knew of a club that basically subsidized dues through the bar.

[SL_Solow]

Pat;  Again I agree although I know a couple that still make a significant dent.

[Brent Hutto]

Yet another example of why people think of golf as a rich entitled white guy pursuit. Every thread about private club finances includes whining about how the cops started actually enforcing drunk driving laws and drove all those poor country clubs clean out of the liquor business. Ah the sheer unfairness of it. If some guy can't drink himself stupid at "the club" then drive himself home, how are our clubs supposed to pay their bills?

[BHoover]

Pat;  Again I agree although I know a couple that still make a significant dent.

Are any of them members of this website?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yet another example of why people think of golf as a rich entitled white guy pursuit.

That's beyond MORONIC.
So now we're to believe that only rich white guys drink ?

Every thread about private club finances includes whining about how the cops started actually enforcing drunk driving laws and drove all those poor country clubs clean out of the liquor business.

Only a MORON would interpret the above posts in that context.

NOBODY WHINED about cops enforcing DWI laws.

ONLY a colossal MORON would infer that from the prior posts

You obviously didn't read the word "RESTAURANTS"

Ah the sheer unfairness of it. If some guy can't drink himself stupid at "the club" then drive himself home, how are our clubs supposed to pay their bills?

Nobody implied or insinuated that it was unfair, only that it was a fact that clubs and restaurants have seen revenues from liquor sales drop off precipitously over the last few decades..  That's a fact.  NO ONE complained about that fact and only a MORON would infer otherwise.

Based on your inability to read and comprehend, I have to ask, "have you been drinking ?"

[Kyle Casella]

Total tangent, but I always thought it might be at least an even money proposition for some clubs to keep a van around to drive people home gratis.

[SL_Solow]

Some clubs take their members keys by having mandatory valets.  Members who are overserved either get driven home or the club calls a cab.  Can make for an occasional dispute but it beats dram shop liability.

[Adam Warren]

I know nothing personally about this club, but Standard Country Club in Louisville is offering a la carte options, including, apparently, "golf only."  Here's an excerpt from a newspaper article: "If members want a stand-alone golf membership for the 18-hole course, that will be an option. If they want tennis facilities only, that’s an option, along with choosing a Standard swimming pool membership – or any combination of the three, along with access – or not – to the clubhouse."

Here's a link to the entire article: http://insiderlouisville.com/news/2013/03/21/sources-standard-country-club-members-closing-clubhouse-discussing-possible-redevelopment/

Here's a link to the rate section on the club's website, which doesn't mention the club house (or tennis alone) being a la carte: http://www.standardcc.net/Membership/Plans-and-Rates.aspx

Anyone know how this plan is working out?

I am not terribly familiar with this club, but I do know Valhalla, Big Spring, and Audabon in Louisville all have better reputations, and all three are certainly interested in acquiring new members. I know that New Albany CC almost went out of business. My suspicion is that Standard is making a wise move to set themselves apart from the competition. It might work, and it might not, but the alternative is to do things the same way as always.

The word that I have gotten is that membership has hit a sharp decline at Standard and this is one of their last efforts to gain memberships by trying to differentiate themselves.  There is always this rumor or that rumor about this course closing or going public in our area and this is one of those cases.

[Dan Herrmann]

For many, joining a golf and Country Club is still the cheapest way to move up the Social Ladder.   For the other 30percent, it's the golf!

Seeing how I don't know or care about social ladders, I guess I'm in your 30%.

For what it's worth, I thought initiation fees for many clubs is almost $0 or VERY low nowadays.

[Michael Felton]

For many, joining a golf and Country Club is still the cheapest way to move up the Social Ladder.   For the other 30percent, it's the golf!

Seeing how I don't know or care about social ladders, I guess I'm in your 30%.

For what it's worth, I thought initiation fees for many clubs is almost $0 or VERY low nowadays.

From what I can tell the way it seems to work in the Metro NY area at any rate is that the high end private clubs still have initiations and then fairly sensible dues. The middle and lower tier places have dropped their initiation fees completely and charge significantly higher annual subscriptions. My data set is pretty low, so I'm sure there are others that have a better idea, but it seems like it's $50-100k to join and then $10k a year (but good luck getting in) or it's 0 to join and then 15-20k a year. Two different business models. Apparently quite a few of the Long Island clubs have no initiation and as a result, from time to time you get a large group of people just up and leave and go join somewhere else. They have no skin in the game.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Total tangent, but I always thought it might be at least an even money proposition for some clubs to keep a van around to drive people home gratis.

No way, then the club would assume a liability that they don't need.

[Phil Lipper]

Michael you numbers are very accurate for Northern NJ most "good clubs" have total initiation (bond and initiation) of between $50k to $75k and then annual dues of around $10k to $12k.  Most of the northern NJ clubs still have a waiting list although its now very minimial as compared to a 5  year waiting list pre recession.

[SL_Solow]

Pat;  Each club should decide.  However most states have a dram shop act where the club may be liable if it over serves a patron who then is involved in an accident on the way home.  While they carry dram shop insurance, it can be effective to find a way to get members home safely.  Aside from increasing safety for members and the general public, it avoids bas publicity which might follow any incidents.  Similar to prior comments about "rich advantaged drunks" and their expecting entitlements

[Jeff Shelman]

I think it is inaccurate to assume that the market for private golf in Northern NJ, Westchester County and Long Island is representative to what private golf is like throughout the country.

There are lots and lots of good golf courses in this country where the initiation fee, etc., ranges somewhere between 0 and 5K. If you stretch that to 10K, you get an even broader list of good courses.

In addition, the idea of dues north of 10K per year is not what is the norm in many parts of the country.

[Jud_T]

Pat,

I would think that the potential liability of a club car and driver would be significantly less than that of having a member kill or maim himself and/or others after being overserved at the club.  Alternatively, everyone could put their keys in a jar, and a third party cab service could be on call for those deemed beyond the pale.  From first hand experience, 3 cocktails at certain clubs who have a notoriously heavy pour hand would put the most seasoned drinker among us way over the legal limit.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat;  Each club should decide.  However most states have a dram shop act where the club may be liable if it over serves a patron who then is involved in an accident on the way home.  

Almost every establishment that serves liquor runs that risk.

While they carry dram shop insurance, it can be effective to find a way to get members home safely.  

Like your dog and the mailman, the first bite is almost free, but, the consequences are dire, subsequently

Aside from increasing safety for members and the general public, it avoids bas publicity which might follow any incidents.

In about 60 years of visiting clubs, I've NEVER encountered a club that provides transportation for members, sober or drunk.

Calling a cab/limo is the most efficient method  

Similar to prior comments about "rich advantaged drunks" and their expecting entitlements

Those comments come from envious morons.
Local bars produce exponentially more DWI's than golf/country clubs

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I would think that the potential liability of a club car and driver would be significantly less than that of having a member kill or maim himself and/or others after being overserved at the club.  

So you would have a club have a line item on their budget, for a car owned and operated by the club, with a full time staff of drivers for that car.
Where do you come up with these theories ?

The obvious or not so obvious solution is to call a cab.

While I don't administer breathalizers to members and guests, I haven't seen "overserved" members as a pattern at any club.
Why would you buy into this moronic notion that members are routinely drunk ?

Alternatively, everyone could put their keys in a jar, and a third party cab service could be on call for those deemed beyond the pale.  

Are you nuts ?
So everyone who shows up for a social function or to play golf is supposed to put their keys in a jar.
Great idea.
I predict that 20 cars a week will be stolen from that lot.
What world or universe are you living in ?

Have you ever taken someone's keys away from them, or tried to take their keys ?

I have on several occassions, and it's no easy task, and I'm not a shrinking violet.

Suddenly, Brent Hutto has moronically convinced other morons that members of golf clubs are littering the roads with DWI's


From first hand experience, 3 cocktails at certain clubs who have a notoriously heavy pour hand would put the most seasoned drinker among us way over the legal limit.

What clubs have the "notoriously heavy pour hand".
I can assure you it's not a Jewish club.

I'm not trying to be mean spirited Jud, but, you're portraying the world of private clubs as havens for alcoholics.

Here's an idea, since it's a private, local club, other members probably live close to the alleged DWI member you reference, and can drive him home, or, if it's out of the way, call him a cab.

This is such a non-event compared to the local saloons that I can't believe that it has legs.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think it is inaccurate to assume that the market for private golf in Northern NJ, Westchester County and Long Island is representative to what private golf is like throughout the country.

Jeff, I don't think that anyone assumed that.

There are lots and lots of good golf courses in this country where the initiation fee, etc., ranges somewhere between 0 and 5K. If you stretch that to 10K, you get an even broader list of good courses.

As you get closer to the populaton centers/cities, you won't find costs that low.

In addition, the idea of dues north of 10K per year is not what is the norm in many parts of the country.

Again, markets, supply and demand, quality, age, size of the membership and other factors can dictate costs.

[Joe Sponcia]

Roger, Mr. Solow,

Can you speak more on the 'loading up of social members (fallacy)' in hopes of raising revenue?  My club is unique in that it actually does turn a profit on F & B.  We have a casual restaurant that has your basic sandwich/app menu, and a food bar (downstairs as you are coming off the course).  It is open for lunch/dinner 7 days per week.  We have a small bar upstairs that is open w-sunday, limited hours that serves a very limited menu.  And believe it or not, we also have a 'formal' dining area that has over the last few years, relaxed its dress code.  It is open 6 days per week, only dinner and special events, and serves a more 'upscale' menu. We DO have a lot of social members that are limited (I believe) to 4 rounds per year.  The key to these areas is they are refreshed every 4-5 years...literally.  All of the restaurants look as good as any fast casual/fine dining in town, and people use them.  I think our food is above average, but not amazing.  

On a separate note, my wife and I got a rare night out last night (we have three kids).  After calling 4-5 restaurants that were fine dining/farm to table types, we settled on one where we knew for certain the meal would be exceptional...and it was.  My only complaint was how loud it was, but my club couldn't have matched the quality of our meal.  I said to my wife, 'its sad that 40 years ago, without question we would have made it (the club) our first choice' but today, the only reason I would go for a nice meal is for the quiet (all of these new restaurants seem to love stained concrete floors/no sound absorbers).  I am in the minority of our club both in age (41) and preference for food quality.  From the surveys I have read, I think the price point per item is more important than the quality of the food...but if I am going to spend $26 for a selection anyway, I would just as well spend $32 and it be amazing.  For that reason, I generally eat my hamburgers, chicken sandwiches, brunch and a few club sandwiches a month over using what I am perfectly willing to spend money on, but is hardly ever in my top 15 places to eat.  Obviously the majority rules.  And I understand...having a restaurant where only 600 people can dine is crazy in a town of 150,000 +.  I guess I'm wondering how other clubs think about the F and B?  I know it is a neccessary evil for the most part when you consider the 30 other restaurants most members pass on the way to the club, but some are breaking even and in rare cases making money.  The f and b is medium on my list of importance, but for the sake of the topic, I am curious how/what other clubs are doing?

[Jud_T]

Pat,

I'm not trying to paint club members as a bunch of drunks.  I'm sure they have a similar percentage of alcoholism and binge drinking as the general population at large.  I can, however, name 4 clubs locally off the top of my head where I've been served drinks that were essentially a large plastic cup full of alcohol with a mixer misted somewhere nearby.  Of course this could have been orchestrated by members trying for the aloha press after being 4 down at the turn...

[Jeff Shelman]

Pat,

There are plenty of clubs in cities that are large enough to have pro sports teams where there are good clubs with good courses that have initiation fees at $10K or less. They might not be the top two or three clubs in those cities, but they are are still solid places to be a member -- places that host state events, USGA qualifying events, etc.

I'm not saying that is the case everywhere, but we have certainly reached a point where more affordable private golf isn't simply limited to small towns.

[SL_Solow]

Pat;  Of course every establishment that serves liquor has the same risk  and most states require that they carry dram shop insurance.  You are also correct that the insurance has limited utility if there are repeated incidents.  The question that you do not answer  is " what should the club do to deal with the issue?"  Your response appears to be" nothing" and you suggest that you have never seen a club do anything about this.  But then you suggest calling a cab for the member who has been over served.   This is precisely the solution that I suggested and that a number of clubs have utilized in the Chicago area.  I agree that the purchase of a van is likely to be a poor choice.  I have seen the bad publicity when a member is involved in an accident/DUI after leaving a club.  If the safety concerns aren't enough to warrant action (and they should be) this additional issue should motivate club officers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I'm not trying to paint club members as a bunch of drunks.  I'm sure they have a similar percentage of alcoholism and binge drinking as the general population at large.  I can, however, name 4 clubs locally off the top of my head where I've been served drinks that were essentially a large plastic cup full of alcohol with a mixer misted somewhere nearby.  

Of course this could have been orchestrated by members trying for the aloha press after being 4 down at the turn...

I can understand that ploy.

Years ago, I had to play a second round match against and All-American college golfer who was also a Walker Cup player.
He had almost set the course record in winning his second match.
It was in April, hence my golf in NJ had been very limited before heading to Pinehurst.

Then, it dawned on me, as someone who liked to party, we'd all go out for dinner drinks and fun
And we did.   Plenty of eating, drinking and fun.

The next day he played well and beat me.
After the match, at lunch, I said, "You know, I thought, or was hoping, that after all the drinking we did last night, that your game might suffer."
He said, "Hell, I do that every night at school."  I had forgotten how students spend their idle hours.  

[SL_Solow]

Joe,  First, you can forget the "Mr. Solow.  I am getting old but its not necessary.  Turning to your questions, yours is a rare club if it turns a profit in its dining room.  Absent an extraordinary amount of bar revenue where the margins are high, clubs almost invariably run F&B at a loss.  The reasons vary but they usually center around the need to run a full service restaurant which has a limited clientele.  Thus your fixed costs are usually a much higher percentage of the overall costs.  Couple that with the desire to please members by having the ability to say "yes" to almost every request makes it difficult to keep food costs down.  If adding social members increases volume so that the fixed costs get spread over more meals, then the addition helps.  However, the size of the facility matters because if the regular members get squeezed at prime time by the social members, they will be upset.  In part, most clubs deal with this problem via dues and food minimums which are really disguised dues for those who don't use the dining facilities.

Of course another way is to lower the level of service and the type of meals offered.  it appears that your club may have made that choice based on your final comments.  This is a choice that every club makes depending upon the perceived desires of its members.  Maintaining a grill menu and a fine dining menu along with separate dining rooms is expensive and some clubs make the trade to eliminate the higher end in return for the cost savings.  It is based on member preference and supply and demand considerations.  I agree that eating at your club given equal meals is generally preferable based on privacy, familiarity, service etc.  But sometimes economic reality intrudes.  We can discuss trends in restaurant design at a different time.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat;  Of course every establishment that serves liquor has the same risk  and most states require that they carry dram shop insurance.  You are also correct that the insurance has limited utility if there are repeated incidents.  

The question that you do not answer  is " what should the club do to deal with the issue?"  

I did answer that question

Your response appears to be" nothing" and you suggest that you have never seen a club do anything about this.

That's not what I stated.

I clearly stated that a cab should be called, but that the club should NOT have a service, staffed with club employees, to ferry inebriated members to their homes.  

But then you suggest calling a cab for the member who has been over served.  

That's correct, but, I take exception to the overserved comment.

The member/guest may have been inebriated BEFORE they even arrived at the club.
They might not have been served so much as one ounce by the club.

Why is there a tendency to make the club the villain ?

And, most clubs keep a careful eye on anyone who appears to be intoxicated because, amongst other reasons, they know how the liability chain works.

What about the social responsibility of the intoxicated members friends and fellow members ?

This is precisely the solution that I suggested and that a number of clubs have utilized in the Chicago area.  

It's the most practical, if not the most prudent solution, absent someone else, member/guest, driving them home.

I agree that the purchase of a van is likely to be a poor choice.  I have seen the bad publicity when a member is involved in an accident/DUI after leaving a club.  If the safety concerns aren't enough to warrant action (and they should be) this additional issue should motivate club officers.

Shel, it's simple common sense.

If someone is inebriated, they and anyone they might come into contact with, should be protected, by making sure that they don't get behind the wheel.

But, I'll tell you another story.

I was at a restaurant and saw someone I knew who was in no condition to drive.
After some serious discussion, (the guy was 6'0", 230 and a former athlete) I took their keys and arranged for them to be driven home.
When he got home, he didn't have his keys to get into his house, so he had to be driven back to the restaurant to get his keys.
He had the driver retrieve his keys from the restaurant.
Then, when the driver was a block from the restaurant, he told the driver to stop, gave him some cash, and walked back to the restaurant, got his car out of the parking lot and drove home.

How do you prevent that ?

A club can only do so much and calling a cab seems like the most practical and prudent action.