[Mike Hamilton]

Tim,

Once you are 18 and have a job you don't have to listen to your parents anyway.  Much better to get advice from wise men on the internet you've never met.

Especially Don.  Work hard, get out on golf courses, look for internships....but don't skip getting a college education.  The world is too competitive in all fields to start by handicapping yourself.  Some may be successful without it....but stats show most aren't.

Major in some field which might help if you decide to stay the course as a GCA, maybe Civil engineering or even a Business field.   My internet advice is keep options open because you never know what occupations may not provide enough opportunity and you quite honestly are probably still too young to absolutely know what you want to do for the rest of your life.

Mike

[Tim Lewis]

Tim,
Go to work ASAP at a local club on the maintenance crew. Even if only on weekends or after school. Get out on the golf course.
My advice would be to get a college education. I look back now and wish I had majored in English, sure some here wish that as well.

Anything worth attaining is tough. You will not succeed by trying to be the next Tom Doak or C & C. Find something you believe in and chase that. Innovate, don't copy. And when you do, and show a little success, they will hit back hard. Believe in what you do and have faith in yourself as it is a dirty business.

I worked on a maintenance crew over the summer, but decided to stop working once school got started, because I felt that staying up till 3 in the morning doing homework during the week, and waking up a 4 on the weekends would be a little to much for my body to handle. I somewhat regret this decision now, but I think the course is already closed. I still have kept in touch with the Superintendent, which has turned out well because the club is now planning to do some renovation work, and he wants to keep me up to date with what will be going on.

I want to take this opportunity to thank everybody who has given advice, for this was really one of the exact reasons that I joined the site.

[Randy Thompson]

Tim,
Very few get the chance to put their name on a project before the age of 40 and getting there can comes from a lot of different formulas and roads. In the present economy it would take balls and passion to pursue such a career choice and thats a good start imo. Most things that go up eventually come down and most likely after being down for a good amount of time, will go back up. In 25 years you will be 41 and the golf devlopment field could be booming again and there could be a shortage of qualified architects. If you love it and love being around it becoming rich or super famous wonīt matter and will be secondary. Go for it and never look back! I would get a college education but if you decide not to, your parents will get over it! In the long run, all we really want is for our kids to be happy but we donīt want you to know that at the age of 16!

[David_Elvins]

I worked on a maintenance crew over the summer, but decided to stop working once school got started...

Tim,

I would agree with what Don said.  I am surprised so few on here have recommended the Golf Course Maintenance career as an path into golf course design.  It is worthy of consideration for the following reasons:

-You can use it to meet people in the industry and understand how the golf industry and golf clubs work.  You will likely be "there" when someone needs someone.
-You can use it to see and study great courses.
-You can develop skills on in-house projects such as bunker rebuilding.
-You can transition in and out of the architecture industry if needed.  This is very handy when considering the fluctuating market conditions.
-A knowledge of grass is very handy when designing golf courses.
-You can get professional qualifications before and during your work career.

[Tom_Doak]

Randy's advice is excellent.  Often the best time to be interested in something is right when everybody else is moving on to something else.  The idea is to buy low and sell high.  I was in college asking for similar advice during the 1979 recession when interest rates were high and the prospects of new development were weak, and more than one architect told me to forget my dream then.  Nobody can see the future.

David's advice is also excellent.  I've had a lot of talented help from the maintenance side of things.  One of my associates today, Brian Schneider, spent 3-4 years working on the maintenance crews of famous courses.  He can build great greens because he spent a lot of time mowing some of the best.  But that was after he'd finished college ... with a degree in ... biochemistry.

My other associates have had degrees in subjects as diverse as environmental design, history, and architecture; and one of the best of them quit college after one year to go shape golf courses in Japan, and never looked back.  They are all tremendously valuable and capable designers, but none of them has made a name for himself yet, whereas Gil Hanse has, with his graduate degree in landscape architecture from Cornell.  Whether that's a matter of education, or personality, or starting young, or going to the right school, who can say?

I guess you will be hoping that Mike Keiser gets his project in Wisconsin off the ground, in spite of the certain doom predicted for it by some of our posters here  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks Tim
My suggestion was that college may or may not help you on your career endeavours
Working in the industry certainly will

If your goal is to be a well rounded educated person and be a golf course designer - that would get a different recommendation from me

How would your parents feel if you had a college degree, at significant expense, and then got a job on a golf course for $12/hr?

You can always go to college somewhere
You can always work on a golf course somewhere
You can even do both at the same time too - this would be a reasonable decision

Cheers

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom's post reminded me: didn't Bill Coore study philosophy? (I hope so - 'cause so did I   )

I'm currently trying to get a project off the ground that's dear to my heart, a very personal and, I believe, a very worthwhile one. And I realized recently -- not without some regret/sadness -- that it was a project I'd thought about for almost 20 years, but that I  never before let myself think could be done, at least not by me; I had listened, consciously or not, to what the prevailing culture/consensus opinion was, and to the views of those who, consciously or not, had a personal/professional/vested interest in not encouraging the kind of work I thought most worth doing, that I thought as having quality and value. It took me a long time to gain the belief that my creative approach and interests have that value and quality, and that they are worth the fight to see realized. Some might call that ego; I'm not sure. I'd like to think that, instead, it's about putting the emphasis on something larger than that, larger than me i.e. the work itself.

Peter  

[Jaeger Kovich]

Tim... I'm 27, I've been working in golf course business for 4/5 years now, the last 2, for an architect, and 2 for a regional contractor. When people ask me how I got that job my answer is always, "Hard work, and a lot of luck." ... I cannot tell you how you should go about it, but I can give you a general picture of what helped me and little bit of advice.

My background: I went to a small liberal arts school, majored in Architectural Studies, and minored in Studio Art. I graduated in 2009, one of the worst years ever to graduate in job wise. During school I spent a "study abroad" semester in Boston where I offered to be a free intern for Mungeam Cornish Golf Design.  I spent 4 summers caddying at one of the best parkland courses in Westchester, NY, and got to pick up a few loops at other top courses. Did a little maintenance work as well, but it was never my favorite. I was supposed to intern for Renaissance Golf Design after graduation, but every project in the US got put on hold. After graduating I wrote probably 100 letters/emails to other architects, contractors and courses around the world that interested me looking for interesting jobs doing maintenance or caddying, had a few decent responses, but nothing special, so I went to a heavy equipment operating school for 6 weeks to learn how to use all the big yellow machines, and 2 weeks later I got a job with the golf contractor. While working for the contractor, I started a golf course blog, started learning Chinese, kept caddying and continued to write to architects. Finally an architect I had stayed in contact with reached out to me and I was hired not long after I turned 25... There is probably a bunch more I've glossed over as well, but there is a pattern here... Hard work!

 

My advice: Be different, if you look at the backgrounds of the people Tom hires, they are all different. If you cant add something different to the mix, your not helping yourself.

There is no road map. You have to come up with the best plan that fits you. If you really want to go to Scotland for school, that has great potential, but its only going to be great if you make the most out of it. If its going to help you get a job, its got to be a great story. Nobody really cares about gpa or what you studied, but if you can captivate someone with stories about the experiences of traveling around the UK for 4 years playing every golf course imaginable, etc, thats going to help your cause.

Lastly, be relentless. The way I see it, I have the best opportunity in the world, but the hard work doesn't stop there. I feel I need to keep reinvesting in my future to stay alive in this business. I work for one of the best in the world, but I still go out of my way to see 60-70 + golf courses a year in my limited time off site. I've continued to make connections with people in the business, golf raters, high ranking club officials etc... Draw, paint, photograph, write, etc... anything and everything you can think about, learn and question..

[Mike Sweeney]

Tim,

I would get into the golf solution business rather than the golf architecture business. Here are two good examples:

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/against-long-odds-tom-doak-opens-short-course-heart-detroit

http://www.bobbyweed.com/Article/the_golf_housing_bust___wsj.pdf

Cities got built up in the 1950's and golf courses got plowed under, now they are tearing down houses in cities and creating open space:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/12/us/blighted-cities-prefer-razing-to-rebuilding.html?_r=0

Figure out how to build a golf course/center on 10-15 acres where players live rather than another destination course that people have to travel long distances to play.

There is a market out there for 6 hole courses that can be played in 90 minutes with warmup and range time, I think.

Just my opinion.

[Tom_Doak]

There is a market out there for 6 hole courses that can be played in 90 minutes with warmup and range time, I think.

Just my opinion.

There is also a market out there for 9 hole courses that can be played in 60 minutes with no warmup or range time, I think.

Just my opinion.

[Jud_T]

Tim,

What state do you live in?  In state tuition is probably the way to go for college if you live in a state with a good program and can gain admittance, at least from an economic point of view.  It's hard to justify spending an extra $50-100,000 for a "name" private school, although I was taught that a good liberal arts education is to learn to think critically and not merely attend a trade school.  The connections one makes at school can be invaluable to one's life and career, particularly if the GCA thing doesn't pan out or you decide to choose a different path.  And don't forget, there's always grad school...  

[Ed Homsey]

Tim--

You have received advice from some of the best in the business.  What I have to offer may, or may not be of help, but I was thinking it might be helpful for you to talk with student(s) who are currently pursuing dreams similar to yours.  I am thinking of some of the recent  landscape architecture winners of the Travis Society's scholarship.  I may be able to put you in touch with them.  Go to the website link below for my contact info.  These students would have information about current landscape architecture programs, internships, the paths they've taken to enter the field, etc.  

Ed Homsey
www.travissociety.com

[Tim Lewis]

Tim,

What state do you live in?  In state tuition is probably the way to go for college if you live in a state with a good program and can gain admittance, at least from an economic point of view.  It's hard to justify spending an extra $50-100,000 for a "name" private school, although I was taught that a good liberal arts education is to learn to think critically and not merely attend a trade school.  The connections one makes at school can be invaluable to one's life and career, particularly if the GCA thing doesn't pan out or you decide to choose a different path.  And don't forget, there's always grad school...  

Im from Wisconsin so Madison is definitely an option.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

In fact, there are many who get landscape architecture degrees at the MLA level, after pursuing some other bachelors degrees.  That said, I don't know a lot of golf course architects with MLA degrees.  In the MLA, you get a crash course in the undergrad technical classes, like grading and drainage, and then spend most of your time in "higher level" pursuits than gold design.

In other words, take the BLA course (Wisconsin has traditionally been a good LA school, but again, check it out).  If for some reason you don't like it as you thought you would, switch, or get your Masters in whatever subject your life leads you to.

As I mentioned, unless curricula have changed somewhat, you will probably need to look to some other departments, like horticulture for turf management, ag or engineering (believe me, an Ag drainage course might do you more good than an Eng 101 in drainage for what you will be doing), aerial photo interpretation, business writing, etc.

I would also factor in a course in sales or small biz marketing, since many who are gifted in design lack in that area.  Public speaking and presentation classes (there or at Dale Carnegie, etc) might be good depending on your personality type.  You just can't forget that aspect of your education if aiming towards a job in the field.

I see many routes to the profession, but still think there is an advantage to the LA school path, supplemented as much as possible with the golf maintenance, landscape or golf construction etc.  Like it or not, it seems that employers look for ways to eliminate the herd, and certainly for many, not having a landscape architecture degree would be an easy factor to use to pare down the list of applicants.  

Not to mention, the basic design skills (and more importantly, design process) will be introduced to you which should serve you well.

[Mike Hendren]

Attend Vanderbilt and major in son-in-law.  Then, marry well.

Bogey

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Went to my HS reunion last month.  Ran into a stylish woman from my class. I commented that she looked well and she said,  she had "Divorced well."  Well, that threw a shiver down my spine......and I had never heard that phrase used on the back end of a marriage, but maybe I am just a country boy.

That said, I would also bet that most of the gca's working today do get help from working wives in order to keep themselves in business, just because the income can be sort of feast or famine.

[Steve Okula]

There is no LA program at St Andrews.  Not sure where in Scotland they have one.

Herriot-Watt University in Edinburgh has an LA curriculum.

[cary lichtenstein]

Michael

You gave great advise

[Ian Andrew]

If you could find your way onto a construction crew for a summer, it will help you understand the commitment required (particularly when you meet all the others trying to break in to the design business too) and it will be an ideal start to getting the practical experience you need.

[JWL]

If your heart is set on getting 'in the business', I think the landscape has changed over the years to a point where your best investment of time and money would be part of a construction/maintenance crew.  While on that crew, hopefully there will be some talented operator of machinery that will be willing to teach you to 'operate' all forms of golf course construction machinery.   I believe that today that the construction talent is identified and in demand even in a dwindling market.   A LA degree is/was necessary in the past to get your self in the door of a design firm.   Today, very few hires are being made, and although that may change in the future as TD indicated,  I would be hard pressed to advise someone to spend the amount of money necessary to get a degree today.   It gets back to where your heart is.   An equipment operator has as much chance of becoming a successful architect as a MLA holder.   This is a different environment than at anytime in my lifetime in the business......over 40 years.   Best wishes to a long, prosperous career.

[Ian Andrew]

If your heart is set on getting 'in the business', I think the landscape has changed over the years to a point where your best investment of time and money would be part of a construction/maintenance crew.  While on that crew, hopefully there will be some talented operator of machinery that will be willing to teach you to 'operate' all forms of golf course construction machinery.   I believe that today that the construction talent is identified and in demand even in a dwindling market.   A LA degree is/was necessary in the past to get your self in the door of a design firm.   Today, very few hires are being made, and although that may change in the future as TD indicated,  I would be hard pressed to advise someone to spend the amount of money necessary to get a degree today.   It gets back to where your heart is.   An equipment operator has as much chance of becoming a successful architect as a MLA holder.   This is a different environment than at anytime in my lifetime in the business......over 40 years.   Best wishes to a long, prosperous career.

An excellent response from Jim.

If you can build what you design, its easier to stay employed.

Since we will all are or will eventually be "independent contractors" perhaps the preferred "degree" is now business or marketing.

[Garland Bayley]

There is a market out there for 6 hole courses that can be played in 90 minutes with warmup and range time, I think.

Just my opinion.

There is also a market out there for 9 hole courses that can be played in 60 minutes with no warmup or range time, I think.

Just my opinion.

That's often where we spend lunch hours here at the software factory.

One piece of advise I don't think has been offered. Do what you are good at! Often time that lines up with what you love. The combination is a dynamo. I have seen lots of people that love doing software, but not being good at it they eventually wash out.

[Mark Chaplin]

Follow your dreams but have an excellent back up plan. There are probably less than 100 GCAs making a living on the planet but every commercial course needs a Superintendent and a good deal of those make a solid living.

[Tim Lewis]

I want to thank everyone who offered me advice on this thread. Using much of the advice that I was given, I have contacted, and even met a few architects since I started this thread. I have also pursued multiple different job options for the upcoming summer, and have had some luck. I think that I am going to be leaving the course that I worked at over the last summer, probably working on the maintenance crew of a different course. I have done a considerable amount of research, and I believe that the only construction project that will be going on even remotely near to me is the Sand Valley project. I actually talked to the man who will be in charge of the construction which was a real cool experience. He also offered to show me the site once they get the construction going, which would be the experience of a lifetime. Anyways, the advice that I have received has helped to get the ball rolling for me, and I feel that I am heading in the right direction. Again, I want to thank everyone who has been generous enough to offer me advice, and I really cannot explain how much it means to me.

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