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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2013, 11:29:20 AM »
Pat,
I believe some forty-four states have made changes to their ED laws since Kelo v. City of New London.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2013, 12:04:33 PM »
Once again we have to distinguish between the purpose for the authority to purchase property via eminent domain and how it is sometimes abused in practice.  Unless one wishes to abolish government, and I recognize there are those on both ends of the political spectrum who favor this option, then from time to time the government will need to obtain land to accomplish appropriate purposes.  Easy examples are police stations, firehouses, hospitals, airports and roads.  Public parks are generally supported and other public functions such as libraries, municipal golf courses, town halls etc. are often welcomed.  The problem is that land owners may not want to sell their property or may inflate the price knowing the identity of the purchaser and the leverage the seller holds given the need for the facility.  Under these circumstances it has long been the consensus that the public good outweighs the individual property rights and, so long as a fair market price is paid for the land, the governing body may compel the sale.  Note the two requirements; an appropriate need and a fair market price.  As is often the case where fallible humans are involved,  there are circumstances where abuse occurs either in determining whether the proposed use is appropriate or whether the compensation is proper.  Incidentally, there are situations where sweetheart deals are made and the government overpays.  So its not always the private land holder who gets hurt.  But the point I am attempting to make is that the underlying rationale for the eminent domain power is not unreasonable and in most instances it has been used for the common good.  That does not excuse its misuse which all good people should oppose.  But merely because one dislikes a project does not make the use of eminent domain in connection with the project improper, unfair or corrupt.

BCowan

Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2013, 01:03:25 PM »
Under these circumstances it has long been the consensus that the public good outweighs the individual property rights and, so long as a fair market price is paid for the land, the governing body may compel the sale.

   It is gov't job to protect individual property rights.  Only roads and railroads are considered reasons for eminent domain.  

Some American's argue that eminent domain is unnecessary. Bruce L. Benson notes that utilities, for instance, have a variety of methods at their disposal, such as option contracts and dummy buyers, to obtain the contiguous parcels of land needed to build pipelines, roads, and so forth. These methods are routinely used to acquire land needed for shopping malls and other large developments.[14] Walter Block argues that the problem of recalcitrant landowners ("holdouts") who refuse reasonable offers for the sale of their land is solved in the long term by the fact that their failure to accumulate wealth through such trades will give them a relative disadvantage in attempting to accumulate more land. Thus, the vast majority of land will tend to fall into the control of those who are willing to make profitable exchanges.  ^ http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_10_2_1_benson.pdf
Jump up ^ Block, Walter. "The Curmudgeon". Defending the Undefendable. p. 143. ISBN 978-1-933550-17-6.

I would love to see eminent domain used on the people who support eminent domain in the ''Public good'' theory on the courses they are members of and see if they have the same outlook.  

''Public Good''-the soviets are smiling! ''Public Use'' is proper terminology.   this is my last post on this matter
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 06:13:22 PM by BCowan »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2013, 01:11:22 PM »
Shel,

Kelo vs New London expanded the application of Eminent Domain.

Land/Property can now be seized for private use/development with Government acting as the judge, jury and executioner.

Certainly a slippery slope

Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2013, 01:15:31 PM »
Some American's argue that eminent domain is unnecessary. Bruce L. Benson notes that utilities, for instance, have a variety of methods at their disposal, such as option contracts and dummy buyers, to obtain the contiguous parcels of land needed to build pipelines, roads, and so forth. These methods are routinely used to acquire land needed for shopping malls and other large developments.[14] Walter Block argues that the problem of recalcitrant landowners ("holdouts") who refuse reasonable offers for the sale of their land is solved in the long term by the fact that their failure to accumulate wealth through such trades will give them a relative disadvantage in attempting to accumulate more land. Thus, the vast majority of land will tend to fall into the control of those who are willing to make profitable exchanges.

BCowan, one thing...

When you cut and paste (otherwise known as plagiarizing) from Wikipedia and try to pass someone else's work as your own, you should take the time to delete the footnotes "[14]" contained within the passage you are stealing.

However, the one edit you made to the passage was interesting - you deleted "American libertarians" and substituted "Some American's."

Otherwise, nice to see you back on GCA...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 01:46:13 PM by Chris_Hufnagel »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2013, 01:31:42 PM »
I went down this road once before recently.  I acknowledged in my post that it might bring out the fringes.  After my last encounter with Mr. Cowan I decline to waste my time on matters legal although I am happy to engage him  on GCA issues.  I suppose this is a further illustration of the danger of off topic political discussions.  Difficult though it may be for me to stay away from them when legal issues are being discussed, I will bow out.  Perhaps it is time to once again consider a ban on off topic threads.  I fear we are about to embark on a road that can hurt this site.  If I want to engage in political debate, there are other places where I can exchange ideas with those who are well qualified, who don't agree with me and who actually meet ideas with ideas.  I think we do a good job of that on architecture related topics.  We should stick to those.  

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2013, 01:44:03 PM »
Can anyone dispute the School District's reason for taking the property?

Having the district's three schools in close proximity will offer benefits from sharing maintenance staff to using existing bus routes, Fegley said. He said the biggest impact will be on education.

Students who are advanced for their age will be able to walk next door for class at a higher grade, he said. And high school students who are taking education classes through a partnership with Rosemont College can gain firsthand experience assisting in elementary classrooms.

http://articles.philly.com/2013-12-04/news/44712719_1_eminent-domain-golf-course-phoenixville-area-school-district

It's now a matter of  $$$$. The owners tried to sell during the real estate boom. Now it's a battle of appraisals.

Many prominent private courses have been taken in whole or in part for roads or other projects for the public good- Tillinghast's Cedarbrook and Radnor Valley in the Philly 'burbs and Lake Merced in San Francisco for example.

In the larger scale, redevelopment of a commercial area fronting Independence Hall in Philadelphia in the 1950s created Independence Mall, now home of the Constitution Center. Some here may find that ironic.

I suggest that political chat go elsewhere.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2013, 02:24:13 PM »

Can anyone dispute the School District's reason for taking the property?

I think you can if you're in possession of more or all of the facts.
For example, what were the School District's alternatives ?


Having the district's three schools in close proximity will offer benefits from sharing maintenance staff to using existing bus routes, Fegley said. He said the biggest impact will be on education.

Students who are advanced for their age will be able to walk next door for class at a higher grade, he said. And high school students who are taking education classes through a partnership with Rosemont College can gain firsthand experience assisting in elementary classrooms.

http://articles.philly.com/2013-12-04/news/44712719_1_eminent-domain-golf-course-phoenixville-area-school-district

It's now a matter of  $$$$. The owners tried to sell during the real estate boom. Now it's a battle of appraisals.

But, it's not a fair fight.
The cost to "defend" is enormous and the deck is stacked against the property owner.


Many prominent private courses have been taken in whole or in part for roads or other projects for the public good- Tillinghast's Cedarbrook and Radnor Valley in the Philly 'burbs and Lake Merced in San Francisco for example.

Yes, but, you have to examine the purpose and the alternatives available.
It's different with highways that form an arterial network, versus a free standing piece of property.


In the larger scale, redevelopment of a commercial area fronting Independence Hall in Philadelphia in the 1950s created Independence Mall, now home of the Constitution Center. Some here may find that ironic.

I suggest that political chat go elsewhere.

Deepdale may have been the classic abuse of power and Eminent Domain.

Power corrupts and absolute power.......... ;D




Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2013, 03:17:30 PM »
Pat,

The school district considered 95 tracts according to the cited article but "School district officials say the parcel, which will be the site of an elementary school and early-learning center, is critical because of its size, location in the district, and position next to the middle and high schools, allowing the district to create a single campus."

As far as cost to the owners is concerned, from my experience in the legal profession in the 'burbs of Philly, there are law firms out there that are willing to handle a case like this on some type of modified contingency fee (1/3 of the funds received over 5M) given that the owners are sitting on a 5M offer. I might come out of retirement for a 6.5M settlement for the owners and a 500K fee for me.  ;D

Deepdale is easily distinguishable based on the facts. This case is fairly routine. "Absolute power...." doesn't apply here.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2013, 03:30:15 PM »
Pat,

The school district considered 95 tracts according to the cited article but "School district officials say the parcel, which will be the site of an elementary school and early-learning center, is critical because of its size, location in the district, and position next to the middle and high schools, allowing the district to create a single campus."

As far as cost to the owners is concerned, from my experience in the legal profession in the 'burbs of Philly, there are law firms out there that are willing to handle a case like this on some type of modified contingency fee (1/3 of the funds received over 5M) given that the owners are sitting on a 5M offer. I might come out of retirement for a 6.5M settlement for the owners and a 500K fee for me.  ;D

Steve,

You're making the assumption that they'll get 6.5M to reinforce your position.

It's a costly, timely and laborious defense for the property owner.


Deepdale is easily distinguishable based on the facts. This case is fairly routine. "Absolute power...." doesn't apply here.

John Burnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2013, 03:50:12 PM »
Steve-

The purpose of the post was in relation to the loss of yet another golf course (in this case, by Eminent Domain).  Though the course might not be a Flynn or for that matter, was on the blocks before anyway, isn't the point.  I am not familiar with the district's options, but like Pat, I'd be interested to know exactly what were the other options.

If Lower Merion wanted to adopt a similar concept, could they annex 450 Ardmore in 3o days?  I think the end goal (better education) is worthy (we all agree on that), but I think there method could be improved.

PS.  The Constitution Center is not a government agency but rather a private entity.  The "brilliance" of the city governement's use of Eminent Domain back in the 50's led to the demolition of a number of revolution era structures, including the Morris estate, which was only the home of some guy named Washington when he was President and the nation was waiting for the Capital to be built down South.

Fortunately, later on, while preparing the site for a new liberty bell exhibit, workers un-covered slave remains and the government adjusted accordingly.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2013, 04:17:01 PM »
Pat,

Eminent Domain practice is not brain surgery or even rocket science.  Once a Declaration of Taking is filed the case will then go to a Board of View of  where each side will present an expert witness on the value of the property. The BOV usually makes an on site view of the property. A decision is made and if either party is unhappy, then an Appeal can filed to the local Court of Common Pleas where a jury trial  de novo takes place. The jurors will not know the decision of the BOV.  Anything can happen in a jury trial.  If the owner is a likable witness and if their expert is good, they may just get their 8M. Who knows.? Most cases settle after the BOV. Believe me, this is not an arduous process. It's not costly if a contingency fee is involved although many firms would require a retainer to be applied against the contingent fee.

http://www.laverylaw.com/pdfs/Eminent%20Domain%20Seminar.pdf
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2013, 07:02:07 PM »
Some American's argue that eminent domain is unnecessary. Bruce L. Benson notes that utilities, for instance, have a variety of methods at their disposal, such as option contracts and dummy buyers, to obtain the contiguous parcels of land needed to build pipelines, roads, and so forth. These methods are routinely used to acquire land needed for shopping malls and other large developments.[14] Walter Block argues that the problem of recalcitrant landowners ("holdouts") who refuse reasonable offers for the sale of their land is solved in the long term by the fact that their failure to accumulate wealth through such trades will give them a relative disadvantage in attempting to accumulate more land. Thus, the vast majority of land will tend to fall into the control of those who are willing to make profitable exchanges.  ^ http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_10_2_1_benson.pdf
Jump up ^ Block, Walter. "The Curmudgeon". Defending the Undefendable. p. 143. ISBN 978-1-933550-17-6.

BCowan,

One other thing...

Given your past practice here and the precedent you have set in less than 100 posts on GCA, I am a little surprised you didn't simply delete ("...") your entire original, plagiarized post after you were called-out on it as opposed to googling the original article and actually taking the time to modify your post in the attempt to cover your transgression...

Golf is a gentleman's game as I would like to think intellectual debate is as well.  I guess I am old school...

Best, Chris.

BCowan

Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2013, 07:19:33 PM »
Given your past practice here and the precedent you have set in less than 100 posts on GCA, I am a little surprised you didn't simply delete ("...") your entire original, plagiarized post after you were called-out on it as opposed to googling the original article and actually taking the time to modify your post in the attempt to cover your transgression...

Golf is a gentleman's game as I would like to think intellectual debate is as well.  I guess I am old school...


    A gentlemen knows when he is wrong, there was no cover up.  The whole paragraph was in quote context and anyone could have figured that out.  I think it has to do with the substance and the side of view i have more than proper English/Grammar/citing that you have a problem with.  I am surprised you put a comma between original and plagiarized...  I actually Yahooed the article.  You and I have a different definition of Transgression too.  I agree with you on your last 2 sentences...

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2013, 07:36:34 PM »
Some American's argue that eminent domain is unnecessary. Bruce L. Benson notes that utilities, for instance, have a variety of methods at their disposal, such as option contracts and dummy buyers, to obtain the contiguous parcels of land needed to build pipelines, roads, and so forth. These methods are routinely used to acquire land needed for shopping malls and other large developments.[14] Walter Block argues that the problem of recalcitrant landowners ("holdouts") who refuse reasonable offers for the sale of their land is solved in the long term by the fact that their failure to accumulate wealth through such trades will give them a relative disadvantage in attempting to accumulate more land. Thus, the vast majority of land will tend to fall into the control of those who are willing to make profitable exchanges.

BCowan, one thing...

When you cut and paste (otherwise known as plagiarizing) from Wikipedia and try to pass someone else's work as your own, you should take the time to delete the footnotes "[14]" contained within the passage you are stealing.

However, the one edit you made to the passage was interesting - you deleted "American libertarians" and substituted "Some American's."

Otherwise, nice to see you back on GCA...

+1

Mike Sweeney

Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2013, 08:37:48 PM »
  this is my last post on this matter

I love Golf Club Atlas.  :D

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2013, 09:59:12 PM »
So if the government wants to take over a publicly traded company (like one that builds reliable web sites) they only need to pay the current market cap?  When there is a hostile takeover of a public company a premium  is always paid.  Sounds like Medowbrook needs a poison pill.

Played there on Thursday, and lipped out on number one but birdied the next three for a -3 start, before the course got more taxing.  

They are not going quietly at Meadowbrook.

The real issue with this is the taking of their livelihoods which come  from operating a golf course.  It is very difficult to go from running your own show to working for somebody else after many years.  

If there were 95! other properties how essential is the need to use eminitet domain.  Meadowbrooks owners should be able to set the price.

Full disclosure Paul Slanika one of the school board members was my 9th grade algebra teacher in a neighboring school district and I will stop before I write anything libelous... He was a golfer at that time.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2013, 10:01:21 AM »
Kelo v New London is one of the worst Court decisions of modern times and goes against individual liberties that America is all about. I went to college in New London. The city is extremely poor, but many of the downtown homes had been in the same families for years. Pfizer built a huge headquarters on the water and decided the surrounding area needed sprucing up. Couldn't have the executives walking past run down houses on the way to lunch. So the town used eminent domain to seize the area properties for redevelopment. The town pointed to the added tax revenue and commercial revenue that would surely result to the benefit of all. A few years later, Pfizer decided to up and leave. The redevelopment never happened, and the downtown is a bigger shithole than ever. Families lost their homes for nothing. All because the town, like this country, was essentially being run by a corporation that was loyal to nothing other than the pursuit of profit.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2013, 01:04:21 PM »
I guess my big issue is school boards in Pennsylvania.  For the most part they drive me nuts (http://www.dailylocal.com/social-affairs/20131113/coatesville-area-approves-28-million-headquarters).  (Coatesville is a district with a mixture of some serious poverty and serious wealth)

Sometimes corrupt and always bewildering, they are too big for their own britches.  In fact, my district had a massive data breach and did NOTHING about it.  Oh yeah - they also taxed us for a $3.5M football stadium.

I don't live in the PASD, but I'm right next to them, and I'm afraid that my district (Downington) will get ideas.  Who knows - why not EM Downingtown GC or Whitford?  What's next?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2013, 01:44:54 PM »
Dan,

If I remember correctly, Downingtown CC was being marketed for sale by the owners a few years ago. I'm sure their land is worth more to a developer than as a going concern golf course.  Same goes for Whitford. Some developer may come along and make "an offer they can not refuse." How about  Pickering Valley? Couldn't Toll Bros come along and make an offer there so they can build more McMansions? 100K an acre isn't a bad deal.





"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2013, 01:45:32 PM »
Dan Callahan,

Are you sure you have your facts right ?

Pfizer was NOT the developer

Wasn't the Ft Trumball development supposed to be for the benefit of Pfizer employees ?

Wasn't the Wyeth merger the reason that Pfizer left ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2013, 01:57:22 PM »
Pat,

Eminent Domain practice is not brain surgery or even rocket science.  Once a Declaration of Taking is filed the case will then go to a Board of View of  where each side will present an expert witness on the value of the property. The BOV usually makes an on site view of the property. A decision is made and if either party is unhappy, then an Appeal can filed to the local Court of Common Pleas where a jury trial  de novo takes place. The jurors will not know the decision of the BOV.  Anything can happen in a jury trial.  If the owner is a likable witness and if their expert is good, they may just get their 8M. Who knows.? Most cases settle after the BOV. Believe me, this is not an arduous process. It's not costly if a contingency fee is involved although many firms would require a retainer to be applied against the contingent fee.

Steve,

It is a difficult process, not the simple picture you present.

First, is a 30 day notice not duress ?

Secondly, it takes years and years to wage a defense.

Look at the Halper family dairy farm in Piscataway, NJ

Piscataway tried to confiscate this 75 acre parcel for $ 4,000,000.

But the family, with the support of outsiders, waged a prolonged defense and years and years later was awarded $ 18,000,000.

And you don't think the process is abusive, confiscatory and inequitable ?

The government, in case after case attempts to steal the land for a pittance of it's worth.

And Kelo vs New London expanded the use from public to private, creating additional problems.

Let's face it, Government has almost unlimited time, resources and money, and represents a true Goliath against very few David's


Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2013, 03:11:52 PM »
Pat,

Yes I have my facts straight. I didn't say Pfizer was the developer. The houses were bulldozed because Pfizer wanted them bulldozed. But as far as I know, Pfizer isn't in the construction business.

Why Pfizer left is irrelevant. And I'm not saying Pfizer did anything wrong. Pfizer is a corporation in pursuit of making a profit.

But that's the danger of using eminent domain to please a corporation. The corporation has no loyalty to the area. Circumstances change.

So Pfizer moved out and the town was left with a big ass eyesore on its waterfront.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2013, 04:49:44 PM »
I really like to get involved in these political arguments.  I used to be a lawyer, but since I've retired I can't say I'm a lawyer any more, so I'll stick to the political.  By way of background, I'm a confirmed, unapologetical liberal.  The New London case was a liberal political decision by the Supreme Court - no doubt about it.  But it was one of the rare liberal decisions I found myself on the other side of.  No problem with ED in general, but not for corporate welfare in the guise of jobs.  Until reading some of this thread I had no idea how the development turned out.  Badly, at that, I see.  Time and again I see government giveaways - corporate welfare.  Back to the current case, the School Board should be going in a different direction - find someplace else and buy it for the new school.  I hear their arguments about the unified campus, but to me that doesn't justify the ED route.  My vote - use ED only when there are no other reasonable alternatives.  Surely, the golf course property is not the only reasonable alternative for a new school site.  End of political opinion.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2013, 06:11:10 PM »
Pat,

Yes I have my facts straight. I didn't say Pfizer was the developer. The houses were bulldozed because Pfizer wanted them bulldozed. But as far as I know, Pfizer isn't in the construction business.

Why Pfizer left is irrelevant. And I'm not saying Pfizer did anything wrong. Pfizer is a corporation in pursuit of making a profit.

But that's the danger of using eminent domain to please a corporation. The corporation has no loyalty to the area. Circumstances change.

So Pfizer moved out and the town was left with a big ass eyesore on its waterfront.

Dan,

When the Kelo vs New London verdict was rendered, I argued with a rather large developer regarding the offensive nature of the decision.

His counter was, how do you improve a neighborhood, how do you resurrect a community without application of ED to assist the private sector.

Take Atlantic City, NJ.

I dare you to walk a few blocks off the Boardwalk/Casinos at night.

ED could have modernized that city had the courts not struck down residency requirements, as they did with NYC fireman and policeman.

There is a balance and a legitimate use and it's not for the nonsense of "corporate greed"  it's to improve the community.

The problem is that it's a magnet for abuse and corruption.

Money and power can be a dangerous combination in the wrong hands.


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