Not quite par: Eminent Domain and golf courses

[John Burnes]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20131203_Not_quite_par__School_district_seizes_golf_course.html

[Steve_ Shaffer]

So...is  there a  problem? All private property is subject to eminent domain to be acquired for the public good- roads, schools, redevelpment of blighted areas, etc.

[Tom_Doak]

It's certainly not the first time this has happened in golf.

Metropolitan Club in Melbourne, for one, had a few holes of its Alister MacKenzie design taken to build a local high school.  That was the impetus for bringing in Dick Wilson to build new holes and make other changes to the course.

[Joe Bausch]

I read about this a few weeks ago in some other paper and made my way out there two weekends ago.  One of the few public courses in the area I had never played.  

It was so neat to see, on an overcast day with the temp about 45 degrees, about 30 people playing the course, all walking.  It ranged from some 60+ guys and some young kids too.

The course won't be on the GCA hall of fame list, but I had fun.  My photo album is here:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/MeadowBrook/

It possesses one of the most interesting par sequences I've ever experienced:

4 4 4 4 3 5 5 5 3

!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

I took a guys house once to build a Village Hall. He was seriously pissed. The best part was when ever he called to bitch us out we would mispronounce his name and he would lose his train of thought to correct us. By the time we apologized he would hang up confused about why he even called. One of the few joys left in public service is the power of eminent domain.

[Mike Sweeney]

Come on. This was the best deal this guy EVER made. Keep the zoning as a 9 hole golf course and then tell me how much he can sell it for with $850 yearly memberships:

http://www.meadowbrookgc.com/rates/Season.aspx

If his name was Trump…...

[Pat Burke]

WHy no take the homes north and east of the property?
How about the homes on the course and the impact of a school
when they bought near a course?

In case you can't tell, I'm not a big fan of eminent domain

[Jason Walker]

Tavistock CC (NJ) was the victim of eminent domain in 1957 for Interstate 295 between Trenton and Wilmington, DE.  Lots of urban legend surrounds the exact circumstances.

[Chris Kane]

It's certainly not the first time this has happened in golf.

Metropolitan Club in Melbourne, for one, had a few holes of its Alister MacKenzie design taken to build a local high school.  That was the impetus for bringing in Dick Wilson to build new holes and make other changes to the course.

It seems to be to common for comfort here!
The Lakes in Sydney in the 1960s, to build the freeway?
Royal Queensland recently as well?

[Randy Thompson]

I am in the middle of such a dispute. I have been hired by the Chilean goverment as an expert witness in a dispute with a golf course that loss three holes for a new highway. The club recieved a fair fee for the three holes but the problem is several other holes had to be altered in order to make the new routing work. Anyways its a mess trying to sort everything out but interesting.

[Jim Nugent]

So...is  there a  problem? All private property is subject to eminent domain to be acquired for the public good- roads, schools, redevelpment of blighted areas, etc.

The problem is that eminent domain also gets used for things like shopping malls, the NY Times headquarters, private limo parking for Donald Trump's casino, and condemning successful black-run businesses so the enlightened institution of Columbia U. can expand its campus into West Harlem.  

All they have to do is convince a court that the seizure is in the 'public good.'  Government becomes judge, jury and executioner.  It even sets the 'fair market' price the property owner receives.  But it's not fair market.  It's an enforced sale: the exact opposite of fair market.  

I hope the many abuses of eminent domain can somehow get curtailed, but my guess is the opposite will come true.  

[corey miller]

Posted by: Mike Sweeney
Come on. This was the best deal this guy EVER made. Keep the zoning as a 9 hole golf course and then tell me how much he can sell it for with $850 yearly memberships:

Glad you know what is best for the family Mike. 

[Phil McDade]

Posted by: Mike Sweeney
Come on. This was the best deal this guy EVER made. Keep the zoning as a 9 hole golf course and then tell me how much he can sell it for with $850 yearly memberships:

Glad you know what is best for the family Mike. 

Far be it for me to speak on behalf of Mr. Sweeney, but if the reporting in the article is accurate:

-- The family wanted twice its assessed value for the property at one point during the discussions.
-- The assessment was presumably based in part on the property as a golf course business (I'm not sure what kind of assessment rules/laws Pennsylvania has).
-- The family presumably knew that, or it wouldn't have asked for a price twice its assessment. I assume the family is smart, and knows the land has more potential value as something other than a golf course. Thus its asking price -- at a time when one can reasonably argue golf course supply exceeds demand nationally (thus it seems unusual to ask for that much to sell it -- based on it being a golf course.)

[jeffwarne]

A lot of things happen all the time
doesn't make them right.

So if I put my house up for sale for higher than its assessed value, it's OK for you to steal for what YOU think it's worth?
Perhaps I am waiting for just the right buyer, looking for something unique that they will pay up for.
and by the way, my house appraised for double what its government assessed value is.
And it's  only worth whatever someone will pay for it.

and if the land is worth more as a nongolf property, those buying (confiscating) it for use as a NON GOLF PROPERTY  should have to pay for it at its highest and best use, which presumably he could've waited for.

What if it was losing $2,000, 000 a year as a golf course-and was therefore worse than worthless as a golf course-would the school make him pay to have it taken from him?

eminent domain sucks

[D_Malley]

are there any examples of eminent domain being used in a somewhat reverse situation?

a municipal owned golf course using ED to acquire additional land to expand the golf course.

[jeffwarne]

are there any examples of eminent domain being used in a somewhat reverse situation?

a municipal owned golf course using ED to acquire additional land to expand the golf course.

I can think of plenty of crappy schools where this would be in the public interest

[Mike Sweeney]

Posted by: Mike Sweeney
Come on. This was the best deal this guy EVER made. Keep the zoning as a 9 hole golf course and then tell me how much he can sell it for with $850 yearly memberships:

Glad you know what is best for the family Mike.  

Corey,

I think my wife broke into your account Sorry I did not have time to explain my thoughts earlier.

You may not remember but roughly 8 years ago I worked closely for a year with a friend that is a real estate developer and we examined building a golf course in a fairly nearby town. We worked closely with Kelly Moran, who really understood the housing and zoning issues in the area. This was at the near top of the boom, and there was no golf course in the area that was pulling in more than $45 per round. Ultimately, it was my advice, despite my insanity and desire to build a golf course at the time, to not build a golf course on the property and just leave it as open space when he goes for his zoning.

I was just there 2-3 weeks ago and the property is still as is, but he has renovated the farm house and he owns a fairly expensive "gentleman's farm". He is a member at Merion so Brad may know him.

Now your post made me rethink the numbers, and I found this posted last night:

http://www.pottsmerc.com/general-news/20131202/phoenixville-school-board-meeting-turns-rowdy-during-eminent-domain-discussion

Based on reading that article, my knowledge of the area, and the fact that the owner said nothing at the meeting when asked about his discussions with the School Board, I am comfortable with my statement.

I can send you my wife's email address if you need to vent, but I always tell her to just say it slowly, "Mike, you were right and I was wrong."

Jeff Warne,

Following up on a conversation from last year's hurricane where I WAS WRONG, here is an interesting article where the King of Eminent Domain, Robert Moses, screwed up:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/04/nyregion/how-new-york-citys-coastline-became-home-to-the-poor.html?_r=0

[jeffwarne]

Interesting stuff Mike Sweeney

Signed,
Mrs. Sweeney

[Bill_McBride]

I took a guys house once to build a Village Hall. He was seriously pissed. The best part was when ever he called to bitch us out we would mispronounce his name and he would lose his train of thought to correct us. By the time we apologized he would hang up confused about why he even called. One of the few joys left in public service is the power of eminent domain.

Hang on now.   YOU "took a guy's house"?   What are you, a local government entity?   At long last, sir, have you no shame?

[John Kavanaugh]

I took a guys house once to build a Village Hall. He was seriously pissed. The best part was when ever he called to bitch us out we would mispronounce his name and he would lose his train of thought to correct us. By the time we apologized he would hang up confused about why he even called. One of the few joys left in public service is the power of eminent domain.

Hang on now.   YOU "took a guy's house"?   What are you, a local government entity?   At long last, sir, have you no shame?

I once worked for the government.  The money wasn't that great but the power was mesmerizing.

[Randy Thompson]

John,
Did the village hall have any fans in it?

[Jim Nugent]

are there any examples of eminent domain being used in a somewhat reverse situation?

a municipal owned golf course using ED to acquire additional land to expand the golf course.

Not municipal, but Trump threatened to use Britain's equivalent of eminent domain to build his course in Scotland. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Anti government radio talk show host takes on eminent domain:



http://www.pottsmerc.com/general-news/20131206/radio-host-joins-eminent-domain-protestors-in-phoenixville

[Patrick_Mucci]

The relatively recent court case in Connecticut re energized and expanded Eminent Domain and it's applications.

In theory, it's for the public good,

In practice, It can border on confiscation without adequate compensation.

A very dangerous law in the hands of misguided unaccountable public officials.

It's also a breeding ground for bribery.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How quickly everyone forgets.

Didn't the Mayor of North Hills attempt to seize Deepdale and convert it to public use even though a public course already existed in the village or close by ?

Didn't the New York State Legislature step in and prevent the confiscation ?

Eminent domain is a dangerous tool of government and is easily abused.