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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2013, 10:33:13 PM »

I cant help but think the "Augusta Syndrome" has become pretty heavily overplayed and is more myth than reality.

Lets give people a little credit. No one watches a program on TV showing the houses of the rich and famous and then expects that their house should automatically be the same. Likewise watching the Masters I think most people understand they are viewing one of the most unique, resource laden golf courses on earth prepared for the top golfers in the world.

Much like "the market" its an easy direction to point a finger.

Grant:

I don't know about in New Zealand, but I can assure you that in America, the Augusta syndrome is real.  Lots of people go out to their golf courses the second week in April -- in areas much further north than Georgia, where the grass has barely started growing yet -- and wonder out loud why their course isn't looking its best.

I can also assure you that in America, lots of people watch a program on TV showing the houses of the rich and famous and then go out and buy a way bigger house than they need or can afford.  In fact, our penchant for doing so just took an enormous toll on the world's economy ... and apparently the Europeans were just as guilty of it as we were.

P.S. to Shel:  Wonderful answer to Bill's question.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2013, 10:35:44 PM »
Thomas Dai,

I think if you researched it, you would find that most states in the US have or are implementing water policies. I know Texas has.  And, as you suggest, golf courses are pretty low on the list of priorities, with many areas of the country already cutting allocations for golf, some significantly.

Overall, I think they get it about right, although anyone can argue the details from their perspective.  At one time, Ag uses were about 80% of total water used, golf courses about 1%. Not sure of any recent stats, to be honest.   You would think they would work on the biggest users, but the ag lobby is pretty strong, too.  Politics is a messy process. I am not sure if the "right" opinion always prevails.  Usually, they pass some law that has everyone teed off to some degree, and in their eyes, that might be a huge success, meaning it was a good compromise.

Back to ag.  Let's say they still use 80% of our water resources. Let's say Congress decides ag has to reduce irrigation by 20%, but at the same time, disallows GMO crops.  It is their right, and has some reason to do it.  That said, what is the answer?  Go hungry in America?  Stop exports that pay bills and feed the world? Or let them have all the water they are accustomed to?

So, no offense taken at any post, but its just harder issues than we can address in broad brush fashion here.
Jeff,
Don't you think the answer to the water issue is going to be a lot like the gasoline issue of old.  Cars used to get 5-8 miles per gallon and now the same style gets 25 or 30.    Our efficiency in water usage is terrible compared to where it will be.  Some guy will find a delivery method for water that will cut water usage in ag and golf tremendously. 
Mike, expect big changes in the not so distant future. Already in areas where water is scarce, the primary means of encouraging conservation is raising the cost of water. In So Cal I've already seen water costs of $1000+ for an acre foot of water. When that happens, people start to seriously look at alternative means of delivery and storage. To really learn about what is possible, research irrigation management in areas of the world where water is truly scarce. Places like Israel where firms like Netafim have been refining sub surface turf irrigation for decades. Before I'm done I hope to design and install a sub surface system for an entire golf course. Sub surface uses about 50% less water then traditional over head systems, and there is no watering window since you can irrigate 24/7, so less pump and less pipe. Less weed and disease pressure since you never wet the leaf, and no need for wetting agents as you are delivering the water right to the rootzone. A completely closed system with no loss to evaporation or runoff and tremendous energy savings since it is all low pressure. On the right site with some elevation, might not need any pumps at all. It sounds far fetched, but it is coming, sooner then most think.

BCowan

Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2013, 10:46:42 PM »
Shel that was a great response.  

Bill if there is a course in your area that is kept firmer or browner, you could take your Super and 2 green committee guys to play and see how they respond to the conditions without even saying anything.  I think once someone experiences F&F they will really enjoy it.  I imagine that many courses are doing deep core aeration in fairways and greens to change profile to a more sandy soil which promotes F&F.  Tom and others would know about that.  

Augusta syndrome is like Penicillin it has been over-prescribed and Americans are immune to it.  

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2013, 10:52:56 PM »

Mike, expect big changes in the not so distant future. Already in areas where water is scarce, the primary means of encouraging conservation is raising the cost of water. In So Cal I've already seen water costs of $1000+ for an acre foot of water. When that happens, people start to seriously look at alternative means of delivery and storage. To really learn about what is possible, research irrigation management in areas of the world where water is truly scarce. Places like Israel where firms like Netafim have been refining sub surface turf irrigation for decades. Before I'm done I hope to design and install a sub surface system for an entire golf course. Sub surface uses about 50% less water then traditional over head systems, and there is no watering window since you can irrigate 24/7, so less pump and less pipe. Less weed and disease pressure since you never wet the leaf, and no need for wetting agents as you are delivering the water right to the rootzone. A completely closed system with no loss to evaporation or runoff and tremendous energy savings since it is all low pressure. On the right site with some elevation, might not need any pumps at all. It sounds far fetched, but it is coming, sooner then most think.


Don

I too see subsurface systems as the future. A couple of questions for you:

Do you envisage the technology or ability to retrofit an existing course?

How badly have early efforts with poor results damaged the perception of drip systems and their effectiveness?

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2013, 11:01:32 PM »

I cant help but think the "Augusta Syndrome" has become pretty heavily overplayed and is more myth than reality.

Lets give people a little credit. No one watches a program on TV showing the houses of the rich and famous and then expects that their house should automatically be the same. Likewise watching the Masters I think most people understand they are viewing one of the most unique, resource laden golf courses on earth prepared for the top golfers in the world.

Much like "the market" its an easy direction to point a finger.


Grant:

I don't know about in New Zealand, but I can assure you that in America, the Augusta syndrome is real.  Lots of people go out to their golf courses the second week in April -- in areas much further north than Georgia, where the grass has barely started growing yet -- and wonder out loud why their course isn't looking its best.

I can also assure you that in America, lots of people watch a program on TV showing the houses of the rich and famous and then go out and buy a way bigger house than they need or can afford.  In fact, our penchant for doing so just took an enormous toll on the world's economy ... and apparently the Europeans were just as guilty of it as we were.

P.S. to Shel:  Wonderful answer to Bill's question.

 Tom

I suppose here we have the "Kauri cliffs" syndrome to some extent but luckily people here do genuinely seem to be able to differentiate between their home course and a one time play at a resort.

Im just not convinced that the golfers are to blame for the chase of unrealistic and expensive maintenance practices. Greenkeeping is a competitive industry and I feel too many guys are chasing perfect grass as opposed to the perfect surface.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2013, 11:08:13 PM »
Grant,
Yes I do expect to be able to retrofit an existing course. While the mainlines and pumps would be more then you need, it would make sense to use as much of the pipe as possible.

What I've learned from the Netafim guys is you have to approach sub surface drip (SDI) with a completely different mindset then managing an overhead system. SDI requires entirely different scheduling to take advantage of the soil's capillary action to move the water. While you use less water since you are delivering directly to the rootzone, for it to work with turf, you have to keep the soil near field capacity. Drying down and rewetting is not the way to do it, and of course you have to be diligent with monitoring soil moisture.

I visited some sports fields this last summer that were 100% SDI and the turf managers said they were by far their lowest maintenance fields.

For now, I like SDI in place of mist heads or small rotors around bunkers and on small island type tees. Patrick Mucci was complaining about wet bunkers recently and I don't think he'd see that same problem if we irrigated our bunker faces with SDI instead f additional small heads. I've got two projects right now where we are installing SDI on small tees and on steep bunker faces.

I also think we should start to see SDI used along the perimeters of our courses. Overhead irrigation that is perfectly spaced works well, but when we start to trim out our irregular edges with part circles and small back up type heads, we add a lot of cost in irrigation materials, and we add maintenance costs because we always end up with too much water in the native. Think of a golf hole with perfectly spaced large heads taking care of most of the turf and SDI being used to trim everything else out. No over spray and no over watered edges.


Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2013, 11:14:51 PM »
Grant,
Yes I do expect to be able to retrofit an existing course. While the mainlines and pumps would be more then you need, it would make sense to use as much of the pipe as possible.

What I've learned from the Netafim guys is you have to approach sub surface drip (SDI) with a completely different mindset then managing an overhead system. SDI requires entirely different scheduling to take advantage of the soil's capillary action to move the water. While you use less water since you are delivering directly to the rootzone, for it to work with turf, you have to keep the soil near field capacity. Drying down and rewetting is not the way to do it, and of course you have to be diligent with monitoring soil moisture.

I visited some sports fields this last summer that were 100% SDI and the turf managers said they were by far their lowest maintenance fields.

For now, I like SDI in place of mist heads or small rotors around bunkers and on small island type tees. Patrick Mucci was complaining about wet bunkers recently and I don't think he'd see that same problem if we irrigated our bunker faces with SDI instead f additional small heads. I've got two projects right now where we are installing SDI on small tees and on steep bunker faces.

I also think we should start to see SDI used along the perimeters of our courses. Overhead irrigation that is perfectly spaced works well, but when we start to trim out our irregular edges with part circles and small back up type heads, we add a lot of cost in irrigation materials, and we add maintenance costs because we always end up with too much water in the native. Think of a golf hole with perfectly spaced large heads taking care of most of the turf and SDI being used to trim everything else out. No over spray and no over watered edges.



Don

Sounds like cool stuff.

Regarding retrofitting, will we see a product that can be comfortably mole ploughed in and what sort of spacing is going to be practical?

Don_Mahaffey

Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2013, 11:29:07 PM »
Grant,
check out this link.
There are more in the game then Vermeer and Netafim, but this is a good primer.
http://www.netafimusa.com/files/literature/wastewater/Vermeer-Netafim-Literature.pdf

Regarding spacing, farther apart in heavy soils, 18" to 24" depending on turf quality expectations, and closer on more course soils, 12" to 18" apart. I have the drippers spaced at 12" along the drip line. The emitters are pressure compensating and each has a check valve to assure even pressure along the entire line.

One of the more interesting aspects of SDI is the spoils we have the hardest time irrigating with over head, like clay, are the easiest to irrigate with SDI since the heavy soils do a better job of holding onto the water.  

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2013, 11:35:13 PM »
Grant; I talk to a lot of supers and greens chairs.  The pressure really does come from the membership.  While supers want to be the "best" they are nearly unanimous in wishing that their members were willing to accept the vagaries of weather which impact on conditioning.  Instead, members demand perfection, notwithstanding cost, turf health, playing characteristics of firm and fast etc.  Greens chairs hear the same thing.  Incidentally, it is much the same with tree removal.  The image is a very green, tree lined course.  As has been noted , Americans will visit Scotland, have a great time and then come home and immediately forget about the conditions they encountered.  They will say that's ok for over there but not here.

Don,  I am excited to hear more about the subsurface systems.  I have followed the Israeli work and wondered if it translated to the golf context.  Our system has about 5 more years of useful life.  Any chance we will have a working system available?  Do you think it will be practical in northern climates?

Don_Mahaffey

Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2013, 10:56:50 AM »
Shel,
I don't know how practical it will be in northern climates. Five years from now it will still be less expensive to install a conventional system, but the gap is closing. I think we will see more movement in areas where water is expensive.

I'm seeing pricing at about 30K an acre for SDI, which adds up to about 2.4M for 80 acres of turf. That is getting closer to what we are spending on some of our systems now, but not enough to get courses to switch over to what they perceive to be unproven technology.

Where it will be attractive is in areas where water is truly scare and annual bills are approaching 500K - 1M.
I think we will see more SDI in those areas soon. 

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2013, 11:02:35 AM »
Don;  thanks for the reality check.  From an environmental point of view, this sound very exciting.  But economically, for a club like mine that has its own well, it appears to be a long way off.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2013, 11:24:54 AM »
"Jeff,
Don't you think the answer to the water issue is going to be a lot like the gasoline issue of old.  Cars used to get 5-8 miles per gallon and now the same style gets 25 or 30.    Our efficiency in water usage is terrible compared to where it will be.  Some guy will find a delivery method for water that will cut water usage in ag and golf tremendously."

Mike,

Part of the La Costa remodel rationale, and its not alone in California, was to reduce water use due to cost, so I am familiar with it.  And I agree, cost will drive a lot of it.

I like Don's direction.  I am sure it will go through a learning curve similar to the traditional irrigation systems, and  will just keep improving.  
I believe Yankee ingenuity should and will be as important and better for golf than strict government edict, especially if at more than the regional level.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2013, 02:50:32 PM »

I cant help but think the "Augusta Syndrome" has become pretty heavily overplayed and is more myth than reality.

Lets give people a little credit. No one watches a program on TV showing the houses of the rich and famous and then expects that their house should automatically be the same. Likewise watching the Masters I think most people understand they are viewing one of the most unique, resource laden golf courses on earth prepared for the top golfers in the world.

Much like "the market" its an easy direction to point a finger.

Grant:

I don't know about in New Zealand, but I can assure you that in America, the Augusta syndrome is real.  Lots of people go out to their golf courses the second week in April -- in areas much further north than Georgia, where the grass has barely started growing yet -- and wonder out loud why their course isn't looking its best.

I can also assure you that in America, lots of people watch a program on TV showing the houses of the rich and famous and then go out and buy a way bigger house than they need or can afford.  In fact, our penchant for doing so just took an enormous toll on the world's economy ... and apparently the Europeans were just as guilty of it as we were.

P.S. to Shel:  Wonderful answer to Bill's question.

And just to add a little note from Britain (although I imagine Tom knows this) the Augusta effect is very real, particularly at some middle of the market clubs where the membership perhaps doesn't receive enough education and where making a golf course look like a garden exhibition is associated with climbing some imaginary social ladder.  
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2013, 06:58:53 PM »
I been away for a few days doing what we’ve determined is the best long-term economic solution for the future of our course.  Ironically, it is all about creating an alternative revenue stream to subsidize our money-losing golf course.  Purely in our case, our location, our resources, our market, our golfers, and all of our other LOCAL issues, our solution is to generate additional revenues by growing fish on an intensive commercial scale.  I run a golf course, but for the last year or so my efforts have been focused on wearing my other hat as a fish farmer.  Over simplified, we decided it was easier to grow more fish than to grow or find more golfers to generate the revenue we need.
   
This gets weird commenting on this thread from such a totally unique perspective.  So, perhaps I should bring up a few more points about why you should skip the rest of my comments.  Obviously, water quantity is not our problem.  We need approximately 20X the water to grow fish than we do to irrigate the golf course.  In our state, Idaho, mostly arid high desert and mountains, water rights keep the lawyers employed so agriculture can consume most of the water.  Ag drives the economy.  Fish farming is agriculture, raising animals for food, but the water usage is legislated as “non consumptive,” meaning it can be reused for other purposes (mostly agricultural) after it has passed through the fish gills.  In our case, we use a small portion of it for the “consumptive” use of growing turf.    By necessity, if one is both a fish farmer and golf course owner, you have to know a lot about water, water chemistry, and water law (including the EPA and the Clean Water Act).  Everyone in this part of the West understands the old Mark Twain saw that out here “water is for fighting and whiskey is for drinking.”  Excuse the paraphrase.

So, when I see thread about golf courses and water, I figure that the topic falls into my area of expertise and I read it.  Unfortunately, there is not much more to add than what has already been said.  I can only confirm, based on my experience, that speaking up about the virtues of “lean and mean” golf has not been good for our golf business.  I personally think our course plays beautifully fast and firm and more “links like” because I have played and love that kind of golf.  I have tried to educate our golfers about the differences.  The majority of our golfers disagree with my views because that’s what they know or believe based on their experience.  Believe me when I tell you that these golfers vote most emphatically with their wallets.  They like green, lush, soft, and even wet, no matter how illogical it is to the game and, more importantly, to their games.  My attempts at educating our golfers are largely viewed as excuses for brown spots or not doing our jobs properly.
   
We’ve learned the hard way to give our golfers what they think they want.  First and foremost, affordable golf because we have more courses for fewer golfers than most areas.  Again, a market driven reality.  In terms of water and conditioning, we try (given our market and economic factors) to give our golfers, to paraphrase the good Dr. Mackenzie, the greatest amount of pleasure to the greatest number of golfers.  For us that means growing as much grass as we can in the spring and early summer, maintaining it as well as we can during the hot days of summer, hitting a sort of perfection of lush conditions in the fall, and wearing it all out over the winter.  Repeat again next year.  From a playing/conditioning point of view, we go from f&f to lush and plush (over watered/fertilized) and back to f&f according to our climate.  It’s not ideal, but in some ways, it satisfies a variety of tastes.  We pour on the water when we can because we can and because that is what our golfers want.

Also learned the hard way, just do it and shut up about many of the opinions discussed here.   Not saying who’s right or wrong, although my own views tend to fall more in line with the practicing pros, the guys in the golf business.  We’re a small, for profit (in theory), golf course and have to make it work however we can.  “Educating” our golfers hasn’t helped us.  Keeping them informed and communicating with them about what we are trying to do and conditions, yes.  “Converting” them to another approach or view of the game, no.  I guess that, for us, we’re knuckling under to our customers (the market) and not demonstrating much leadership by preaching about what we know and believe.  As I see it, our golfers and market have a long way to go before they begin to understand this discussion.  I’d rather stay in the golf business than being right, a leader, and going broke.  Big world theories make more sense for our situation.

Thank you, Don, for starting this thread, and thanks to all the Supers and knowledgeable folks who joined in.  Tons of practical wisdom applied to a noble cause, restoring and sustaining this great game.   

Don_Mahaffey

Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2013, 09:55:34 PM »
Dave,
Thanks for that post.
I have to say I'm interested in your fish farming idea, but I'll go off line to inquire about that.

I agree with the "just do it and shut up" approach. I should probably adhere to that MO.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2013, 11:48:20 PM »
Part of the question has to ask who our audience should be when we speak up.

The reality is that most people who play golf like what they like already, and their minds won't change. I can talk fast and firm and walking golf with my golfing buddies all that I want, and we can have fun teasing each other about our preferences, but at the end of the conversation no one's mind has been changed. And the truth is, they aren't wrong for liking what they like. My preference for walking and fast and firm conditions isn't any more intrinsically correct than someone else who loves riding on a lush course, even if it is more economically viable long-term.

I do believe, though, that more people would play and enjoy golf if they saw it as an actual outdoor activity. My generation is full of hikers, snowboarders, rock climbers, runners, cyclists, and all kinds of other people who love to be outdoors and ACTIVE. Riding in a cart and drinking in an artificial environment isn't all that exciting for them, but walking on a golf course that accentuates the natural environment in which it resides as opposed to turning it into a garden might just be a little more attractive. Of course, you can't build the future of the game on people who don't play it, especially when startup costs and basic skills are so difficult to come by.  It's also hard to get them past the idea that golf courses are full of stuffy old white men. But man, when I was hanging out at Kingsley on Saturday night back in September, it was hard to think of many people who wouldn't have enjoyed the day and evening we had just had. I know a few golfers who wouldn't have enjoyed having their paradigm so challenged, but my non-golfer friends would've had a blast if they could've just magically shot something like a 95 in the process.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2013, 12:16:00 AM »
Part of the question has to ask who our audience should be when we speak up.

That really is the question isn't it?
Plenty are speaking to those who play today, but no one in golf is speaking to the next generation. With fewer and fewer coming to the game, we think if we keep doing what we've always done. but just a little better, we can get 'em back. Not happening.

Jason, I think you are right in that many would enjoy the experience you had at Kingsley. There is absolutely no reason for an experience like that to be so rare, but it is. Simple clubhouse, bold design, firm dry conditions. That should be the norm.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 07:09:40 AM by Don_Mahaffey »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2013, 04:00:57 AM »
Sure, we need the Kingsley experience, but at half the price.  Can a great design running fast be delivered to the public for $50 or $40 a game?  This is the crux of the entire issue for me.  So many guys talk about the future of golf then go on about private clubs.  Golf has always been about the affordable and accessible side of the game, something the privates in the US overwhelmingly fail to deliver.  In a very real sense, Jeff B is correct.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 07:38:52 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2013, 07:19:33 AM »
I read Dave's post and begin to wonder whether my usual optimism for things turning full circle, particularly in America, might be misplaced....and then I read of Wilmington Golf Club and its $14 green fee. Could someone please explain to a poorly educated Brit how such a superb looking cheap golf course can continue to survive if Americans are apparently rejecting such clubs out of hand. Surely such places aren't heavily subsidised by local authorities?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 10:58:34 AM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Don_Mahaffey

Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2013, 07:31:33 AM »
Sure, we need the Kingsley experience, but at half the price.  Can a geat design running fast be delivered to the public for $50 or $40 a game?  This is the crux of the entire issue for me.  So many guys talk about the future of golf then go on about private clubs.  Golf has always been about the affordable and accessible side of the game, something the privates in the US overwhelmingly fail to deliver.  In a very real sense, Jeff B is correct.

Ciao

Sean, I agree with you. A course like Kingsley would be an ideal low cost public course. Might be fewer bunkers, and maybe the maintenance isn't quite as good (on a scale of 1-10, KC is at the top, so even dialed back a bit it would still be outstanding), but it would be awesome to see that sort of approach for low cost public golf.  

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2013, 12:00:32 PM »
Sean, you’re absolutely right. I almost mentioned the same in my original post. Golf like that is just too hard to travel to and too expensive for many. As a result, it isn’t very likely to permeate the market and turn new golfers onto the game. That’s the game’s real quandary in my eyes. To grow the game, we have to change the paradigm of what the game represents to non-golfers, in the way a course like Kingsley or Ballyneal or Dismal River seeks to do, but at a more affordable and accessible price point and location. To do that, we need golfers to be willing to spend money to sustain courses that shift the paradigm. Unfortunately, that’s unlikely to happen.

It’s worth mentioning too that my affection for the time I spent at Kingsley and eagerness to return has only a little to do with the golf course. It’s an excellent course, but it also has a few blemishes in my eyes. It’s my favorite club in spite of those blemishes because of the rest of what it offers – a wonderfully unpretentious and fun atmosphere with the fire pits, excellent accommodations, friendly staff, casual vibe, and other outdoor pursuits like hunting, fishing, and boating. My home club is about as welcoming and casual as can be expected from a country club, but we just don’t have remotely the same chance of creating that dusty, smoky, technologically disconnected, tired but exhilirated and relaxed feeling that a person gets when they walk off the course and sit down for drinks with friends at a place like Kingsley, Wild Horse, or The Prairie Club. That feeling is a rare one in my experience, but it’s what makes me love the game more than anything else (other than maybe a purely struck 3 iron, which is another feeling that has neared extinction for the modern golfer).
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2013, 02:53:09 PM »
Don,

I actually think we are making some good progress.

I believe the average golfer primarily takes his cues from 3 things to determine if a course is one of the best:

1)   Publication rankings – Golf Digest, Golfweek, etc.
2)   Holding tournaments – the more prestigious the better and accordingly, the more TV viewers the better.
3)   Publicity – Tends to occur with new courses, particularly now that there are not many opening. But achieving 1 and 2 above gets publicity.

I think we’re gaining ground because many of the top courses have the conditions and culture you’re looking for. Shinnecock, Sand Hills, National, Crystal, Seminole, and Pacific Dunes are in the top 20 on the Golf Digest list. In addition to some of the above, Old Mac, Ballyneal and Rock Creek are on the top 20 of the modern list for Golfweek. If we could get more superintendents and greens committees to see these courses it would be helpful. NGLA should have been crawling with those folks at the Walker Cup, but I’m sure that wasn’t the case.

Also, the best new courses being built today, and acknowledged by the press, have the qualities you mention. Streamsong is the most recent example.

Hopefully the simplified irrigation story will be told again and again when the 2 Opens are held next year at Pinehurst #2.  And, I certainly think your work at Dismal River will become more widely known as more people play that course next year.

I think the USGA could have more impact than just about anyone if they held their championships at the courses that were setting the right example for the future. Pinehurst and Chamber’s Bay are a good start.

Dave McCollum

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Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2013, 03:58:19 PM »
Part of the question has to ask who our audience should be when we speak up.

I do believe, though, that more people would play and enjoy golf if they saw it as an actual outdoor activity. My generation is full of hikers, snowboarders, rock climbers, runners, cyclists, and all kinds of other people who love to be outdoors and ACTIVE..

Of course, you can't build the future of the game on people who don't play it, especially when startup costs and basic skills are so difficult to come by.  

I believe you're right that very powerful inhibitors are the cost and difficulty.  You have to be determined to learn how to play.  I've done sports my entire life, including all of the above, and was a decent athlete.  Golf was by far the most difficult to learn.  I took up the game at age 46 and estimate it took 4 years to know what I was doing.  I was fit and coordinated and much better at it when I started than most beginners.  I had unlimited access to practice facilities and lessons.  I enjoyed practicing back then and hit balls at least 3 times a week.  It still took a long time to become an average golfer.

Check out a golf blog called, I think, "The Dan Plan."  This kid decided to test out the "outliers" theory that anyone could become an expert at anything if they dedicated 10,000 hours to learning the skills.  That's about three and a half years working 8 hours every day.  He choose golf.  He's about halfway to his 10K hours in 3.5 years and is about a 6 handicap.  It's a hard game.                

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #73 on: November 27, 2013, 11:26:38 PM »
Don

Sorry to drag up the subsurface irrigation again but one more question.

With the ability to effectively select a depth in the rootzone where the water enters the profile, do you see this as a viable method in the war against poa by being able to keep the top zone dry where the shallow root system exists?

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How loud should we speak up?
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2013, 01:07:36 AM »
While we're on he sub-surface irrigation...

Don,

At what depth are the sub-surface lines laid? How do they affect aeration operations?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 10:55:44 AM by Steve Okula »
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

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