[Keith OHalloran]

Question for the Supers. It seems like a lot of the blame for the fans and higher green speeds that in turn require fans is being laid on the expectations of members. If you believe that the course would be better maintained and healthier, not to mention possibly cheaper, with higher mowing heights, brown in the fairways, removal of trees etc,  do you feel an obligation to try and educate the members or the green chairman? I guess this may have been a better question on Don's thread about speaking up, but instead of installing fans based upon the unrealistic demands of people who have never maintained a golf course, is education of the members a possibility?

[Sean McCue]

I got an email from a Chicago based Superintendent named Justin VanLanduit. He is the Superintendent at Briarwood Country Club.Though not a GCA member, he asked if I would posting the following-

I’m not a member of GCA but I follow quite frequently.  It’s a good learning experience; I’ve enjoyed seeing the different sides of discussions and have learned a good deal along the way.  This latest thread regarding turf fans has brought to surface so many other issues greater than the fans itself.  The greatest issue that I see is demand for conditions.  We’ve all forced them ourselves, large majority of golfers wanting “Augusta or PGA Tour Televised” conditions and Superintendents ourselves for always pushing the envelope for better more pristine.  
I’d first like to address the very first question on the thread; are clubs still purchasing fans?  Yes they are, and I think more now than before.  Just ask Precision or SubAir.  Our club purchased 2 fans last fall and they were used for about two full weeks this summer.  We purchased portable ones that are run by a generator, this was our selection as the cost to run power was too substantial and it gave us the ability to remove from the course when not needed.  I’m not a fan of the look or the sound but I am a fan of the breeze they create and the positive respiration it helps create for the turf.  Air movement is just like drainage and works with the drainage to create an environment better suited for turfgrass health.  Fortunately the drain tile can be put underground and out of sight.  If you had a green that wasn’t draining are you not going to install drainage cause you don’t like the look of a cleanout pipe covered with a drain grate or some catch basins around the greens to remove surface water?
Now the claim that fans are Superintendent driven, now that is a strong claim.  Fans are driven by architecture, and golfer demand for quality conditions.  Superintendents are there to maintain the architecture of the course and meet the standards of conditions set by the owner/board.  Superintendents are asked to make recommendations to their club of what they feel is needed to maintain and achieve the standards that are set by the owner/board.  The owner/board can always say no.  Yes, the Superintendent makes the recommendation to the owner/board that a fan would benefit the green if they choose not to go that route that’s their choice.  Now if the green fails, who is on the hook?  Not the owner or board, the Superintendent.  
I will use my 2 fans that I purchased last fall as an example.  Our clubs standards are high, although I feel I am given a bit more leniency to dial things back if nature dictates.  Although, it’s not to say that I don’t hear it from members if I slow greens down or do what’s necessary to get through a stretch of weather.  2 greens on our course are tucked into corners, and when I say corner I mean corner.  On the west side of 1 green I have a highly used road about 20 yards from the back right edge of the green and then a house about 30 yards from the back left of the green.  The house nor the road the members want to see or hear so fencing and landscaping are our protection.  Predominant winds in the summer for us are out of the southwest.  Tree removal and shrub removal is not an option for me, the only option available for us for air movement is artificial.  So in this case how am I the Superintendent driving the fan?  I’m put in charge to keep the greens to the standard the membership desires and I’m to implement the tools in doing so thus requiring a fan.  The other site was very similar but the house is about 20 yards west of the green and a large mound is placed to the southwest of the green, the mound has been reduced to help a bit.
In any job you utilize your tools available to meet deadlines, expectations, etc…  Some companies have fancy software programs that have helped them increase quality and efficiency where a similar product company with not as many employees does it without the high tech software.  They both have the common goal of creating or keeping business but I’m sure the one with the high tech software has a bigger bottom line.  They are utilizing the tools and resources they have available to meet their goal although the one has a higher say “quota” to meet than the other so the software is necessary to meet that goal.  Another example is say you are asked to dig a hole that must be a certain diameter and depth.  I think you’d have a better shot at meeting those exact measurements if you had a pointed shovel, spade, trench shovel, and flat shovel rather than just having a pointed shovel.  
The bottom line is Superintendents use tools available to achieve the standards they are asked to meet.  Some standards are greater than others thus the choice of tools and the desire for tools are different.  No Superintendent wants to see dead grass, I’m sure I am accurate in saying they feel and take it personal that they failed at their job if there is dead grass.  Heck, I’ve seen Superintendents empty the clubhouse ice machine to put ice out on Poa greens when the weather has been so hot, or put dry ice in front of fans around greens to cool the surface.  Mother Nature is a bitch to deal with at times, Superintendents try to control every situation possible when it comes to growing grass but at times we are at her mercy, and that is where we reach to different measures to grow grass, barely healthy grass at times just to see the break in the weather pattern and things can recover.  
And by the way, Medinah has fans some stationary some portable and they were used up to just before the Ryder Cup.  Helped them keep the turf healthy to handle the pressure put on them during the event.

^^^^^^^^  What he said!

[Steven Blake]

Oh no rollers are killing greens !! I can say from experience that rollers have helped SAVE greens and not kill them!!  I can say so on many, many fronts.  

How about the positives to rolling:
   1.) Decrease in pesticide use.
   2.) Potential labor saving on days that you only roll and not mow.
   3.) Increased smoothness of the putting surface.
   4.) USE rollers in stressful periods in lieu of mowing, yes John I do roll greens in 100 degree heat however our mowers remain parked the shed. This practice is more practical since mowing in more injurious than rolling.
   5.) Increase in ball roll.
   6.) Increase in firmness.
   7.) Ability to raise the height of cut with mowers when rolling to achieve as good of results in ball roll and smoothness.
   8.) Did mention labor savings??

The only real downside to rolling that I have encountered is perimeter management where rollers stop and start which most of the time is not on the putting surface but in the collar or rough.The past 2 seasons I went from rolling 3-4 days a week to rolling 7 days a week with no side effects despite record heat in 2012 and all the benefits to the turf and happy members.

I’m sure there are more positives but I think we all get the point. It seems John needs to learn what benefits rollers can provide to the overall product and HEALTH of the turf on which he is playing.

Steve Blake

[Sean McCue]

Question for the Supers. It seems like a lot of the blame for the fans and higher green speeds that in turn require fans is being laid on the expectations of members. If you believe that the course would be better maintained and healthier, not to mention possibly cheaper, with higher mowing heights, brown in the fairways, removal of trees etc,  do you feel an obligation to try and educate the members or the green chairman? I guess this may have been a better question on Don's thread about speaking up, but instead of installing fans based upon the unrealistic demands of people who have never maintained a golf course, is education of the members a possibility?

Here in lies the problem, we as Superintendents are hired as the experts and when no one wants to listen to what the expert has to say or the consequences that can occur that is the fight.  At my club I have 450 "experts" that will question my every agronomic decision most of them get it when the facts are given, but 10% never will or will never want to get it. You can't educate people who do not want to be educated!  

[SL_Solow]

Keith;  I am not a super although I work closely with the talented young man, Justin VanLanduit who recently chimed in; I am one of those who makes sure he has sufficient leeway because we recognize how good he is at what he does.  But your inquiry makes a critical assumption; that the course would be "better" if maintained differently.  It might be easier to maintain.  It might be cheaper to maintain.  It might play somewhat differently.  But "better" is subjective and as almost all of the supers have commented, it is the members/owners who set the standards.  At our club we consult with Justin as to the reasonableness of our standards and the costs associated but in the end, the members decide what they want and how much they will pay.  Unless they (we) are demanding the impossible, the super follows through.  In discussing that which is possible and the costs, we get educated.  But in the end, the members set the standards.

[Aaron McMaster]

Question for the Supers. It seems like a lot of the blame for the fans and higher green speeds that in turn require fans is being laid on the expectations of members. If you believe that the course would be better maintained and healthier, not to mention possibly cheaper, with higher mowing heights, brown in the fairways, removal of trees etc,  do you feel an obligation to try and educate the members or the green chairman? I guess this may have been a better question on Don's thread about speaking up, but instead of installing fans based upon the unrealistic demands of people who have never maintained a golf course, is education of the members a possibility?

Keith, we educate our members constantly but here are just a couple quick points.  I've been educating my members on ball marks longer than I care to remember, they still can't fix one correctly, yet they constantly ask what's up with the ball marks.  Carts, can you please keep carts 30 feet from greens and tees (think they can accomplish this difficult feat???) NOPE!  I never stop trying to educate them on everything we do and why we do it to meet the expectations they desire and believe me we hear a lot of desires but what hope do you have to clue these folks in on real agronomic principles when they can't do something as simple as fix a ball mark properly.

Members drive the bus, I just try to keep it running for them.

[Mike Sweeney]

While I recognize the difference in private versus non-private clubs, isn't the ultimate user subject to the same syndromes ?
Don't the users of non-private clubs watch the PGA Tour on TV and thirst for the conditions they observe ?

Or is someone going to tell me that non-private golfers don't watch TV and don't want to see their course emulate the courses of the PGA Tour ?

Same as home ownership versus renter mentality. The one is invested in their property (literally), and the other is not. No comparison for how they are kept up. The only difference is you can make money on your home. Unless the golf club is for business, there is no ROI for golf clubs. Thus the economics have turned against the private club market. Pride only goes so far when there is no ROI.

[Sean McCue]

Keith;  I am not a super although I work closely with the talented young man, Justin VanLanduit who recently chimed in; I am one of those who makes sure he has sufficient leeway because we recognize how good he is at what he does.  But your inquiry amakes a critical assumption; that the course would be "better" if maintained differently.  It might be easier to maintain.  It might be cheaper to maintain.  It might play somewhat differently.  But "better" is subjective and as almost all of the supers have commented, it is the members/owners who set the standards.  At our club we consult with Justin as to the reasonableness of our standards and the costs associated but in the end, the members decide what they want and how much they will pay.  Unless they (we) are demanding the impossible, the super follows through.  In discussing that which is possible and the costs, we get educated.  But in the end, the members set the standards.

This is how it should be done. You are lucky to have him.

[Aaron McMaster]

Keith;  I am not a super although I work closely with the talented young man, Justin VanLanduit who recently chimed in; I am one of those who makes sure he has sufficient leeway because we recognize how good he is at what he does.  But your inquiry amakes a critical assumption; that the course would be "better" if maintained differently.  It might be easier to maintain.  It might be cheaper to maintain.  It might play somewhat differently.  But "better" is subjective and as almost all of the supers have commented, it is the members/owners who set the standards.  At our club we consult with Justin as to the reasonableness of our standards and the costs associated but in the end, the members decide what they want and how much they will pay.  Unless they (we) are demanding the impossible, the super follows through.  In discussing that which is possible and the costs, we get educated.  But in the end, the members set the standards.

Excellent member and my guess is you've probably been a greens chairman or close.  It's always easy to complain from the cheap seats. 

[JESII]

I would guess Justin is every bit as lucky to have Shelly as Shelly (and Briarwood) is to have Justin.

That's really the point. A clear open dialogue between the superintendent and a representative of the membership will keep everyone on the same page.

This thread did spawn a side conversation I'd love to observe (because I can't contribute knowledgeably)...is sand really the ideal medium to grow grass/turf on? What are the pros and cons of heavy sand programs?

[SL_Solow]

Jim that is a great topic that I have been interested in for years.  We know Old Tom said "sand, sand, and more sand".  Top dressing has really helped our place and Mike Keiser only want s to build on sand.  But is the California method the best for greens?  Should there be some organic material and how much?  I suppose that could be a different thread and is less architecture and more greenkeeping.  For the architects; which is the easiest medium to work with?

[John Kavanaugh]

I think Briarwood is one of the top courses in the country. I feel for Justin having to follow one of the finest supers to ever practice his craft. Portable fans a couple of weeks a year are not my concern.  

Side note:  The modern furniture collection in the clubhouse is museum quality.

I went by the house to change into my golfing attire and caught my son watching Gone With the Wind. The irony forced me to grab a beer and join in.

[SL_Solow]

Invite him to watch Casablanca with you.  Its worked for 2 generations in my family

[Patrick_Mucci]

Keith, we educate our members constantly but here are just a couple quick points.  I've been educating my members on ball marks longer than I care to remember, they still can't fix one correctly, yet they constantly ask what's up with the ball marks.  Carts, can you please keep carts 30 feet from greens and tees (think they can accomplish this difficult feat???) NOPE!  I never stop trying to educate them on everything we do and why we do it to meet the expectations they desire and believe me we hear a lot of desires but what hope do you have to clue these folks in on real agronomic principles when they can't do something as simple as fix a ball mark properly.

Members drive the bus, I just try to keep it running for them.

Anthony,

I fixed a minimum of three, plus my own, on every green today.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Same as home ownership versus renter mentality.
The one is invested in their property (literally), and the other is not.
No comparison for how they are kept up.
The only difference is you can make money on your home.
Unless the golf club is for business, there is no ROI for golf clubs.
Thus the economics have turned against the private club market. Pride only goes so far when there is no ROI.



Mike Sweeney,

You're confusing "care of the course" with "expectations for the course"

The non-private golfer has his expectations "framed" by the PGA Tour events he sees on TV, the same as the private member.

The weekly bombardment of pristine conditions and super fast greens influences all golfers, private and non-private, some more than others.

[John Kavanaugh]

Same as home ownership versus renter mentality.
The one is invested in their property (literally), and the other is not.
No comparison for how they are kept up.
The only difference is you can make money on your home.
Unless the golf club is for business, there is no ROI for golf clubs.
Thus the economics have turned against the private club market. Pride only goes so far when there is no ROI.



Mike Sweeney,

You're confusing "care of the course" with "expectations for the course"

The non-private golfer has his expectations "framed" by the PGA Tour events he sees on TV, the same as the private member.

The weekly bombardment of pristine conditions and super fast greens influences all golfers, private and non-private, some more than others.

I do not have a single friend that ignorant. This phantom demographic has been created by those in power to perpetuate their importance, be they greens chairmen or supers. If they ever did exist they have long since quit the game.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Same as home ownership versus renter mentality.
The one is invested in their property (literally), and the other is not.
No comparison for how they are kept up.
The only difference is you can make money on your home.
Unless the golf club is for business, there is no ROI for golf clubs.
Thus the economics have turned against the private club market. Pride only goes so far when there is no ROI.



Mike Sweeney,

You're confusing "care of the course" with "expectations for the course"

The non-private golfer has his expectations "framed" by the PGA Tour events he sees on TV, the same as the private member.

The weekly bombardment of pristine conditions and super fast greens influences all golfers, private and non-private, some more than others.

I do not have a single friend that ignorant. This phantom demographic has been created by those in power to perpetuate their importance, be they greens chairmen or supers. If they ever did exist they have long since quit the game.

JakaB,

Are you sure that you only played golf ?

Those in power only do the bidding of the membership.

If they didn't, they'd be dislodged from power.

You've been around, at how many membership clubs does a rogue Green Chair or Superintendent last ?

Not very long.

The Green Chair and Super may head their committee/department, but, if they go against the will of the membership, they won't be in power long.

[Matt Wharton]

I got an email from a Chicago based Superintendent named Justin VanLanduit. He is the Superintendent at Briarwood Country Club.Though not a GCA member, he asked if I would posting the following-

I’m not a member of GCA but I follow quite frequently.  It’s a good learning experience; I’ve enjoyed seeing the different sides of discussions and have learned a good deal along the way.  This latest thread regarding turf fans has brought to surface so many other issues greater than the fans itself.  The greatest issue that I see is demand for conditions.  We’ve all forced them ourselves, large majority of golfers wanting “Augusta or PGA Tour Televised” conditions and Superintendents ourselves for always pushing the envelope for better more pristine. 
I’d first like to address the very first question on the thread; are clubs still purchasing fans?  Yes they are, and I think more now than before.  Just ask Precision or SubAir.  Our club purchased 2 fans last fall and they were used for about two full weeks this summer.  We purchased portable ones that are run by a generator, this was our selection as the cost to run power was too substantial and it gave us the ability to remove from the course when not needed.  I’m not a fan of the look or the sound but I am a fan of the breeze they create and the positive respiration it helps create for the turf.  Air movement is just like drainage and works with the drainage to create an environment better suited for turfgrass health.  Fortunately the drain tile can be put underground and out of sight.  If you had a green that wasn’t draining are you not going to install drainage cause you don’t like the look of a cleanout pipe covered with a drain grate or some catch basins around the greens to remove surface water?
Now the claim that fans are Superintendent driven, now that is a strong claim.  Fans are driven by architecture, and golfer demand for quality conditions.  Superintendents are there to maintain the architecture of the course and meet the standards of conditions set by the owner/board.  Superintendents are asked to make recommendations to their club of what they feel is needed to maintain and achieve the standards that are set by the owner/board.  The owner/board can always say no.  Yes, the Superintendent makes the recommendation to the owner/board that a fan would benefit the green if they choose not to go that route that’s their choice.  Now if the green fails, who is on the hook?  Not the owner or board, the Superintendent. 
I will use my 2 fans that I purchased last fall as an example.  Our clubs standards are high, although I feel I am given a bit more leniency to dial things back if nature dictates.  Although, it’s not to say that I don’t hear it from members if I slow greens down or do what’s necessary to get through a stretch of weather.  2 greens on our course are tucked into corners, and when I say corner I mean corner.  On the west side of 1 green I have a highly used road about 20 yards from the back right edge of the green and then a house about 30 yards from the back left of the green.  The house nor the road the members want to see or hear so fencing and landscaping are our protection.  Predominant winds in the summer for us are out of the southwest.  Tree removal and shrub removal is not an option for me, the only option available for us for air movement is artificial.  So in this case how am I the Superintendent driving the fan?  I’m put in charge to keep the greens to the standard the membership desires and I’m to implement the tools in doing so thus requiring a fan.  The other site was very similar but the house is about 20 yards west of the green and a large mound is placed to the southwest of the green, the mound has been reduced to help a bit.
In any job you utilize your tools available to meet deadlines, expectations, etc…  Some companies have fancy software programs that have helped them increase quality and efficiency where a similar product company with not as many employees does it without the high tech software.  They both have the common goal of creating or keeping business but I’m sure the one with the high tech software has a bigger bottom line.  They are utilizing the tools and resources they have available to meet their goal although the one has a higher say “quota” to meet than the other so the software is necessary to meet that goal.  Another example is say you are asked to dig a hole that must be a certain diameter and depth.  I think you’d have a better shot at meeting those exact measurements if you had a pointed shovel, spade, trench shovel, and flat shovel rather than just having a pointed shovel. 
The bottom line is Superintendents use tools available to achieve the standards they are asked to meet.  Some standards are greater than others thus the choice of tools and the desire for tools are different.  No Superintendent wants to see dead grass, I’m sure I am accurate in saying they feel and take it personal that they failed at their job if there is dead grass.  Heck, I’ve seen Superintendents empty the clubhouse ice machine to put ice out on Poa greens when the weather has been so hot, or put dry ice in front of fans around greens to cool the surface.  Mother Nature is a bitch to deal with at times, Superintendents try to control every situation possible when it comes to growing grass but at times we are at her mercy, and that is where we reach to different measures to grow grass, barely healthy grass at times just to see the break in the weather pattern and things can recover. 
And by the way, Medinah has fans some stationary some portable and they were used up to just before the Ryder Cup.  Helped them keep the turf healthy to handle the pressure put on them during the event.

What he said!!!

Keith;  I am not a super although I work closely with the talented young man, Justin VanLanduit who recently chimed in; I am one of those who makes sure he has sufficient leeway because we recognize how good he is at what he does.  But your inquiry makes a critical assumption; that the course would be "better" if maintained differently.  It might be easier to maintain.  It might be cheaper to maintain.  It might play somewhat differently.  But "better" is subjective and as almost all of the supers have commented, it is the members/owners who set the standards.  At our club we consult with Justin as to the reasonableness of our standards and the costs associated but in the end, the members decide what they want and how much they will pay.  Unless they (we) are demanding the impossible, the super follows through.  In discussing that which is possible and the costs, we get educated.  But in the end, the members set the standards.

And what he said!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

Happy Thanksgiving to all the hard working supers who have played a vital role in my enjoyment of the game over the last 45 years. I am very thankful of your efforts and sacrifices.

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