[jeffwarne]

I'm going to ask a question that I already know the answer.  Which was the better course?  Merion during the 1981 U.S. Open or Merion during the 2013 U.S. Open?  We need to turn back to save the game.

John,
  Ill ask a question that I already know the answer. Are you referring to the architecture or the turf conditions/quality? I already know the answer because science and technology have advanced too much in 30 years for the turf to NOT be better.

Anthony,
I absolutely don't know the answer and I curiously await your answer.
What was better about the turf this year at Merion?
Very few players made any putts at Merion, the greens couldn't be particularly fast due to slope(even after modifications to some greens) so if we're talking about the greens it'd be hard to say they were better.
The fairways were higher than US Open normal to hold the slopes.

Agreed that science and technology have improved, but is golf really better?
or just different and more expensive, with less slope to allow for the scientific advances in turf

[Don_Mahaffey]

Jeff, that really is the question isn't it.
As the turf got better, did the game get better. I think in some cases the answer would be yes.
But as we gained the ability to get daily speeds to 11+ on our greens, we started to lose our surfaces in the interest of speed. Faster greens, yes, better golf, no IMO.

I know how hard supers work to meet expectations. I think most here do as well. That is not what we are discussing here.
The question is, as agronomy has advanced, has the game gotten better? I don't think the answer is an automatic yes. If the game is better, why do we have fewer players? Why do we have to spend more and more to meet what has become the conditioning expectations all supers use to defend what we do?

It has taken 8 pages to get past the bombast and get to the meat.
Just because we can raise conditioning to levels not seen in the past, does that mean we have a better game? lets talk about the game for a minute, not the grass.  

[Anthony_Nysse]

The 90's called, they want their supers back.  The world and more specifically the golf economy has changed.  This notion that members are out there stomping their feet demanding perfection is a ruse to keep high budgets at courses destined to fail if we don't change.  The high end club model is possible but the high budget club is obsolete.

I would like to know if the supers out there who have gone to bashing me on twitter and calling be a bully here even believe that you can have a high end club without it being a high budget club.

Once you finally define what you're view of a high end club is, examples can be provided. That being said, Yeaman's Hall is a very highly, rated golf course on a small budget. YH is vastly different experience than say, Daniel Island or The River Course at Kiawah when it comes to where their money is spent on how much is spent. Kingsley also comes to mind. A highly acclaimed course, that probably has a small budget compared to Oakland Hills. Crystal Downs is in the same boat as Kingsley.

[Aaron McMaster]

The 90's called, they want their supers back.  The world and more specifically the golf economy has changed.  This notion that members are out there stomping their feet demanding perfection is a ruse to keep high budgets at courses destined to fail if we don't change.  The high end club model is possible but the high budget club is obsolete.

I would like to know if the supers out there who have gone to bashing me on twitter and calling be a bully here even believe that you can have a high end club without it being a high budget club.

Once you finally define what you're view of a high end club is, examples can be provided. That being said, Yeaman's Hall is a very highly, rated golf course on a small budget. YH is vastly different experience than say, Daniel Island or The River Course at Kiawah when it comes to where their money is spent on how much is spent. Kingsley also comes to mind. A highly acclaimed course, that probably has a small budget compared to Oakland Hills. Crystal Downs is in the same boat as Kingsley.

If it hadn't been for turf and technology Merion would've been a flooded mess for the 2013 Open.  You put that weather event there in 1981 and it would've been horrible.

[JESII]

Aaron,

Please elaborate.

[Aaron McMaster]

I'm going to ask a question that I already know the answer.  Which was the better course?  Merion during the 1981 U.S. Open or Merion during the 2013 U.S. Open?  We need to turn back to save the game.

John,
  Ill ask a question that I already know the answer. Are you referring to the architecture or the turf conditions/quality? I already know the answer because science and technology have advanced too much in 30 years for the turf to NOT be better.

Anthony,
I absolutely don't know the answer and I curiously await your answer.
What was better about the turf this year at Merion?
Very few players made any putts at Merion, the greens couldn't be particularly fast due to slope(even after modifications to some greens) so if we're talking about the greens it'd be hard to say they were better.
The fairways were higher than US Open normal to hold the slopes.

Agreed that science and technology have improved, but is golf really better?
or just different and more expensive, with less slope to allow for the scientific advances in turf

Can someone please explain to me when the game used to be cheap.  I personally beleive, as it relates to economies and incomes, golf has never been more accessable to middle and lower income folks than it is now....it used to be soley an elitist, high society game in this country.  Now, can the average Joe play Seminole, of course not, but the quality they can play for a reasonable price is outstanding.

The problem is we need more golfers and in today's society I hear more complaints about the time it takes to play golf more than the expense as it leads to picking and staying with the game.  As a golfer, this is why I hate playing a typical public, muni or say the South at Oakland Hills, it's like a death march.  I can't stand playing golf that takes longer than 3 hours 45mins.  No excuse for it.

[Patrick_Sisk,_CGCS]

Is the darkest phase in the history of turf management past us?  Are courses still purchasing fans?  

Or, in another scenario; Is the darkest phase in the history of epicurean offerings past us?  Are restaurants still serving liver?  

I, for one, loath the taste of this organ and henceforth proclaim it should be banned from every plate in the world. For a chef to pass off this afterthought slab as a delicacy is akin to culinary malpractice.  Simply offering this disgusting pile of toxin filtering flesh is clearly a lazy man's effort to make a buck on the underdeveloped taste buds of diners everywhere.  Slathered in onions to disguise it's foul and unrelenting aftertaste only draws further attention to this "meat's" vulgarity.  I say, if a chef is incapable of developing a menu without the inclusion of liver he must be replaced...immediately!

Silly?  You bet!  How often have you noticed liver on a menu these days?  How many golf courses, or better yet, how many putting greens require the use of extraordinary measures to keep them in good to fair condition during exceptionally stressful weather periods?  Not many in both cases.

P.S.  I really don't care for liver but have never felt the need to express my dislike in writing before today.  Kind of liberating I'd say.

 

[Patrick_Sisk,_CGCS]

By the way, I thought fans were supposed to be quiet on a golf course.  I know that on television there's the more that occasional "Get in the hole" shout but if you don't like the behavior of the fans on your course why don't you take it up with them?  Tell them off John!

[Aaron McMaster]

Aaron,

Please elaborate.

That would be a lot of typing but a few examples.  They installed XDG drainage in all the greens at Merion somewhere around 2008ish, I could be off a year plus or minus Jim but near there.  If they didn't have that drainage, those greens would have been unmowable bogs almost the entire week.  The greens were also under growth regulation, which in weather like that (wet and muggy) your turf would grow like a machine, PGR's keep that growth in check.  Combine unmowable turf because it's saturated with fast growing turf and the quality of putting would be terrible.  Not to mention that trying to do it for the sake of a tournament would've causeed turf loss.  I don't consider that acceptable when there is a simple solution of adding drainage to greens.

They been aearting and filling with sand on the fairways at Merion for awhile.  Add new fairway rollers to that and presto you have very firm playable fairways in an area know to be constanly wet, bad soil and took a heavyweight punch of it during tournament week.

I could go on and on.  Is this where we want the game to go Jim.  I have no idea but it's where the game is right now, if new turfs or technology comes along to remove fans or other current problems they will be incorportated by supers I can assure you, well that is if members or owners want them.

Here is a good example for you.  Here is Detroit in the early to Mid 2000's clubs would routinely be happy with green speeds around 10-10.5.  2005 our club and another high end club in detroit had a demonstration of a roller named the DMI speed roller.  We threw it out for our members and they were blown away how much smoother and faster the greens became, yet we didn't lower the mowing height or injure the turf by doing more grooming etc.  It added the cost of one operator which eventually was offset by other advantages rolling produced.  Now everyone in Detroit has a speed roller or two because the members love the putting quality it offers.  Is this good or bad, I consider it good since we added quality to the greens in the Detroit areas and it a lot of cases where guys were mowing super low to try to attain speeds, stressing grass more this tool allowed them to reverse that trend.

I see technology as the light at the end of John's tunnel, I'm not sure he does and certainly it's not coming fast enough for him.  Sorry that's a big ramble.

[Aaron McMaster]

Is the darkest phase in the history of turf management past us?  Are courses still purchasing fans?  

Or, in another scenario; Is the darkest phase in the history of epicurean offerings past us?  Are restaurants still serving liver?  

I, for one, loath the taste of this organ and henceforth proclaim it should be banned from every plate in the world. For a chef to pass off this afterthought slab as a delicacy is akin to culinary malpractice.  Simply offering this disgusting pile of toxin filtering flesh is clearly a lazy man's effort to make a buck on the underdeveloped taste buds of diners everywhere.  Slathered in onions to disguise it's foul and unrelenting aftertaste only draws further attention to this "meat's" vulgarity.  I say, if a chef is incapable of developing a menu without the inclusion of liver he must be replaced...immediately!

Silly?  You bet!  How often have you noticed liver on a menu these days?  How many golf courses, or better yet, how many putting greens require the use of extraordinary measures to keep them in good to fair condition during exceptionally stressful weather periods?  Not many in both cases.

P.S.  I really don't care for liver but have never felt the need to express my dislike in writing before today.  Kind of liberating I'd say.
Classic!
 

[JESII]

Aaron,

Did prior rain storms result in "unmowable bogs for most of a week"? Somehow I doubt it. Can you support it?

[Steven Blake]

Mr. Sisk,

Brilliant, my friend!

Steve Blake

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a good example for you.  Here is Detroit in the early to Mid 2000's clubs would routinely be happy with green speeds around 10-10.5.  2005 our club and another high end club in detroit had a demonstration of a roller named the DMI speed roller.  We threw it out for our members and they were blown away how much smoother and faster the greens became, yet we didn't lower the mowing height or injure the turf by doing more grooming etc.  It added the cost of one operator which eventually was offset by other advantages rolling produced.  Now everyone in Detroit has a speed roller or two because the members love the putting quality it offers.  Is this good or bad, I consider it good since we added quality to the greens in the Detroit areas and it a lot of cases where guys were mowing super low to try to attain speeds, stressing grass more this tool allowed them to reverse that trend.

I see technology as the light at the end of John's tunnel, I'm not sure he does and certainly it's not coming fast enough for him.  Sorry that's a big ramble.

And seven years later you regrass all your greens.  I agree that if you are going to roll your greens during extreme heat you better buy yourself some fans.

[JESII]

Assuming I get the point of Patrick Sisk's post; it's amazing to me that the humor is in telling someone not to play the golf course if they know there are fans.

[Aaron McMaster]

Aaron,

Did prior rain storms result in "unmowable bogs for most of a week"? Somehow I doubt it. Can you support it?

Jim,  I can personally support when you get 3 inches of rain and you don't have internal drainage you will not be mowing greens at 7am the next day.  Not really sure what you mean when you say doubt it, have you stood on a green after this type of event and had to make a decision on mowing, rolling etc???  You put a 400lb walking greens mower on a saturated green your gonna scalp it and lose turf immediatley.  They received that Mon-Fri this year.  I also listed improvements with PGR's and fairway agronomics as just a couple improvements over the 1981 open.

However, I'll summarize for you and John.  I think the darkest period had nothing to do with fans but was related to John's beloved days  of the (late 60's-80's, even early 90's in some cases)  Crap architecture, over planting of trees, flowers, shrubs, building courses on sites where it's ridicuously difficult to grow grass, unmaintable features, lakes, lakes and more lakes......The list goes on for this era.  Thank god it's over.  Fans are a pittance to the stupidity of this era.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm going to ask a question that I already know the answer.  
Which was the better course?  
Merion during the 1981 U.S. Open or Merion during the 2013 U.S. Open?  
We need to turn back to save the game.

JakaB,

So much of the answer is weather dependent.

I think you're also forgetting that budgets don't magically appear from out of nowhere.
They evolve over time.

And, each year budgets are scrutinized at several levels.
At the Green Committee
At the Finance Committee and at
The Board.

The budget is a guideline, a guestimate that reflects the intent of the membership.

It's the members who set the standards for the superintendent and staff and once the membership has set that standard, they have to fund that standard.

Your issue isn't with Superintendents, it's with the memberships.

[Aaron McMaster]

Here is a good example for you.  Here is Detroit in the early to Mid 2000's clubs would routinely be happy with green speeds around 10-10.5.  2005 our club and another high end club in detroit had a demonstration of a roller named the DMI speed roller.  We threw it out for our members and they were blown away how much smoother and faster the greens became, yet we didn't lower the mowing height or injure the turf by doing more grooming etc.  It added the cost of one operator which eventually was offset by other advantages rolling produced.  Now everyone in Detroit has a speed roller or two because the members love the putting quality it offers.  Is this good or bad, I consider it good since we added quality to the greens in the Detroit areas and it a lot of cases where guys were mowing super low to try to attain speeds, stressing grass more this tool allowed them to reverse that trend.

I see technology as the light at the end of John's tunnel, I'm not sure he does and certainly it's not coming fast enough for him.  Sorry that's a big ramble.

And seven years later you regrass all your greens.  I agree that if you are going to roll your greens during extreme heat you better buy yourself some fans.

Your clueless, we got hammered with winter damage in 2010.  Club didn't like that we had 3 greens that took til early June to recover.  Poa (susceptible to winter damage)  Bentgrass (NOT)  Your arguments are so bad John, I hope you pave better than this. However, with you logic every time I hit a pothole in Michigan I should tell you that your lazy.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Here is a good example for you.  Here is Detroit in the early to Mid 2000's clubs would routinely be happy with green speeds around 10-10.5.  2005 our club and another high end club in detroit had a demonstration of a roller named the DMI speed roller.  We threw it out for our members and they were blown away how much smoother and faster the greens became, yet we didn't lower the mowing height or injure the turf by doing more grooming etc.  It added the cost of one operator which eventually was offset by other advantages rolling produced.  Now everyone in Detroit has a speed roller or two because the members love the putting quality it offers.  Is this good or bad, I consider it good since we added quality to the greens in the Detroit areas and it a lot of cases where guys were mowing super low to try to attain speeds, stressing grass more this tool allowed them to reverse that trend.

I see technology as the light at the end of John's tunnel, I'm not sure he does and certainly it's not coming fast enough for him.  Sorry that's a big ramble.

And seven years later you regrass all your greens.  I agree that if you are going to roll your greens during extreme heat you better buy yourself some fans.

Your clueless, we got hammered with winter damage in 2010.  Club didn't like that we had 3 greens that took til early June to recover.  Poa (susceptible to winter damage)  Bentgrass (NOT)  Your arguments are so bad John, I hope you pave better than this. However, with you logic every time I hit a pothole in Michigan I should tell you that your lazy.

Im still waiting for John to answer some of my questions or comment back and now hes blaming you and a roller for regressing greens? This thread is going to go into the GCAHOF.

[John Kavanaugh]

Anthony,

I will answer one question then I am leaving to golf.  Make it quick.

[Anthony_Nysse]

John
  I've asked 10 over the last 2 days. Skip over all the gibberish you've written and answer mine or anyone questions.

[John Kavanaugh]

I am the one being called a moronic bully when it comes to turf issues and then I am told that the over compaction of greens by constant rolling to achieve higher speeds has nothing to do with grass failure.  Amazing.

[John Kavanaugh]

John
  I've asked 10 over the last 2 days. Skip over all the gibberish you've written and answer mine or anyone questions.

I will.  When I am done golfing.  That was your one question.

[Steven Blake]

I am not sure what rollers have to do with fans but then again its John so I am not surprised.  

Aaron its great they you were able to get rid of Poa and make your greens better for the long-term at your club.  Every superintendent knows how difficult it is to manage Poa particularly in the Great Lakes with harsh winters.

Steve Blake

[Anthony_Nysse]

John
  I've asked 10 over the last 2 days. Skip over all the gibberish you've written and answer mine or anyone questions.

I will.  When I am done golfing.  That was your one question.

But John, there was not a question in my reply.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I got an email from a Chicago based Superintendent named Justin VanLanduit. He is the Superintendent at Briarwood Country Club.Though not a GCA member, he asked if I would posting the following-

I’m not a member of GCA but I follow quite frequently.  It’s a good learning experience; I’ve enjoyed seeing the different sides of discussions and have learned a good deal along the way.  This latest thread regarding turf fans has brought to surface so many other issues greater than the fans itself.  The greatest issue that I see is demand for conditions.  We’ve all forced them ourselves, large majority of golfers wanting “Augusta or PGA Tour Televised” conditions and Superintendents ourselves for always pushing the envelope for better more pristine.  
I’d first like to address the very first question on the thread; are clubs still purchasing fans?  Yes they are, and I think more now than before.  Just ask Precision or SubAir.  Our club purchased 2 fans last fall and they were used for about two full weeks this summer.  We purchased portable ones that are run by a generator, this was our selection as the cost to run power was too substantial and it gave us the ability to remove from the course when not needed.  I’m not a fan of the look or the sound but I am a fan of the breeze they create and the positive respiration it helps create for the turf.  Air movement is just like drainage and works with the drainage to create an environment better suited for turfgrass health.  Fortunately the drain tile can be put underground and out of sight.  If you had a green that wasn’t draining are you not going to install drainage cause you don’t like the look of a cleanout pipe covered with a drain grate or some catch basins around the greens to remove surface water?
Now the claim that fans are Superintendent driven, now that is a strong claim.  Fans are driven by architecture, and golfer demand for quality conditions.  Superintendents are there to maintain the architecture of the course and meet the standards of conditions set by the owner/board.  Superintendents are asked to make recommendations to their club of what they feel is needed to maintain and achieve the standards that are set by the owner/board.  The owner/board can always say no.  Yes, the Superintendent makes the recommendation to the owner/board that a fan would benefit the green if they choose not to go that route that’s their choice.  Now if the green fails, who is on the hook?  Not the owner or board, the Superintendent.  
I will use my 2 fans that I purchased last fall as an example.  Our clubs standards are high, although I feel I am given a bit more leniency to dial things back if nature dictates.  Although, it’s not to say that I don’t hear it from members if I slow greens down or do what’s necessary to get through a stretch of weather.  2 greens on our course are tucked into corners, and when I say corner I mean corner.  On the west side of 1 green I have a highly used road about 20 yards from the back right edge of the green and then a house about 30 yards from the back left of the green.  The house nor the road the members want to see or hear so fencing and landscaping are our protection.  Predominant winds in the summer for us are out of the southwest.  Tree removal and shrub removal is not an option for me, the only option available for us for air movement is artificial.  So in this case how am I the Superintendent driving the fan?  I’m put in charge to keep the greens to the standard the membership desires and I’m to implement the tools in doing so thus requiring a fan.  The other site was very similar but the house is about 20 yards west of the green and a large mound is placed to the southwest of the green, the mound has been reduced to help a bit.
In any job you utilize your tools available to meet deadlines, expectations, etc…  Some companies have fancy software programs that have helped them increase quality and efficiency where a similar product company with not as many employees does it without the high tech software.  They both have the common goal of creating or keeping business but I’m sure the one with the high tech software has a bigger bottom line.  They are utilizing the tools and resources they have available to meet their goal although the one has a higher say “quota” to meet than the other so the software is necessary to meet that goal.  Another example is say you are asked to dig a hole that must be a certain diameter and depth.  I think you’d have a better shot at meeting those exact measurements if you had a pointed shovel, spade, trench shovel, and flat shovel rather than just having a pointed shovel.  
The bottom line is Superintendents use tools available to achieve the standards they are asked to meet.  Some standards are greater than others thus the choice of tools and the desire for tools are different.  No Superintendent wants to see dead grass, I’m sure I am accurate in saying they feel and take it personal that they failed at their job if there is dead grass.  Heck, I’ve seen Superintendents empty the clubhouse ice machine to put ice out on Poa greens when the weather has been so hot, or put dry ice in front of fans around greens to cool the surface.  Mother Nature is a bitch to deal with at times, Superintendents try to control every situation possible when it comes to growing grass but at times we are at her mercy, and that is where we reach to different measures to grow grass, barely healthy grass at times just to see the break in the weather pattern and things can recover.  
And by the way, Medinah has fans some stationary some portable and they were used up to just before the Ryder Cup.  Helped them keep the turf healthy to handle the pressure put on them during the event.

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