Have turf fans become obsolete?

[John Kavanaugh]

I wish the stimpmeter was never invented.  I wish turfgrass joints were shut down.  Supers can grow what grows locally just fine and make it work for golf just fine.  I am always perplexed by the seeming need to create complex issues and problems when trying to grow grass for a game.  When exactly did golfers become such a lot of knuckleheads?  Folks shaving greens then installing fans and god knows what else to keep the grass alive have far more money than good sense.

Ciao  

That is exactly why fans are obsolete.  Those days have passed along with huge maintenance budgets.  Therein lies the rub with this thread.

[John Kavanaugh]

Hate to dip my toe into this shit show of a thread, but my club got fans a few years ago - and we're like the club that Tom Doak mentioned on page 1 for our newly renovated course.

Count me on the side of those who hate these things.  That said, if they keep grass on the greens and allows us to maintain the level of play and playability that we're used to, it is a minor inconvenience that I'll live with and the membership will live with.

I have noticed a tangible difference in the turf health of the greens since the installation of these horrible things.

Once fans have been installed in the windy city, Chicago, all has been lost.  My God, it must be summer up there for two weeks tops.

[Sven Nilsen]

John:

Sounds like you need to buff up on your history and geographical climatology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_name_%22Windy_City%22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Chicago

Sven

[Grant Saunders]

Can someone give a realistic comparison on the speed of a green where a fan is used vs what the speed would actually be with no fan and adjusted agronomic practices such as height of cut?

[Richard Choi]

Only the naive members start an argument with Jaka on this site.

Only the foolish ones continue it.

[John Kavanaugh]

John:

Sounds like you need to buff up on your history and geographical climatology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_name_%22Windy_City%22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Chicago

Sven

I lived in Chicago for ten years, you know what I mean.  The only reason Medinah would have fans on #3 would be because they can.  That is one course that does not exist for member "play".  It is a championship showcase status buster.  At least they have improved #1 for the many times #3 is closed for tournament preparation.

In the modern golf economy the excuse "because we can" is quickly becoming obsolete and is such an outlier that is hardly bears consideration.

[John Kavanaugh]

Only the naive members start an argument with Jaka on this site.

Only the foolish ones continue it.

Richard,

I trust you to tell me if I am trolling.  I see some good coming from this discussion.

[Sven Nilsen]

John:

Sounds like you need to buff up on your history and geographical climatology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_name_%22Windy_City%22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Chicago

Sven

I lived in Chicago for ten years, you know what I mean.  

Did you have central air, or did you just open the windows?

Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

I was in college at DeKalb for a few years with no air conditioning and then moved with my wife to a couple of places with window units.  I also weighed 80 lbs less and was young and very much in love.  I can still remember spring time in Chicago and that feeling in my gut as we came out of winter.  I think I rode that high through the summer heat because I have little recollection of every being uncomfortable.

[Sven Nilsen]

Window units, the green fans of the urban residential market.

As an aside, the younger guys in town call that winter to spring transition "hunting season."

[John Kavanaugh]

On a serious note:  Is Chicago in this "transition zone" that I hear so much about?

[Sven Nilsen]

Its just north of it, but moreso due to the severity of the winters than the mildness of the summers.  Its in what is described as the Cool/Humid Zone, as opposed to the Cool/Arid Zone.

[Aaron McMaster]

On a serious note:  Is Chicago in this "transition zone" that I hear so much about?

Here ya go John

http://www.extension.org/pages/13152/transition-zone-lawns#.UpUHysRDtrM

[JR Potts]

If every summer were like this past summer (average temp and precipitation), Chicago would be fine - but that doesn't seem to be the average anymore (see 2011-2012 for reference).  If fans make the 25000 rounds coming through the course better for the patrons during July and August, so be it.  It seemingly doesn't bother my guests at all.  In fact, nobody has ever mentioned them.

[John Kavanaugh]

If every summer were like this past summer (average temp and precipitation), Chicago would be fine - but that doesn't seem to be the average anymore (see 2011-2012 for reference).  If fans make the 25000 rounds coming through the course better for the patrons during July and August, so be it.  It seemingly doesn't bother my guests at all.  In fact, nobody has ever mentioned them.

How long ago did #3 get 25,000 rounds?  Given your short season and construction/tournament preparation that seems incredible. Of course none of your guests complain about the fans. You just hosted one of the greatest Ryder Cups of all time and are a top 20 course in the world for someone in your demographic. Hell, none of the slap dicks I take to Victoria complain about the fans. Why would they?

[SL_Solow]

John,  last year was quite moderate but 3 of the prior 4 years had near record heat.  There were numerous periods of multiple days in the 90's with high humidity.  worse yet, there was minimal cooling at night.  as a result, older poa greens were stressed and many were lost.  Particularly impacted were those with poor air circulation.  Even some of the newer grasses experienced trouble in areas of poor circulation.  Greens near corners of properties where trees and mounds are used to shield views and noise are  particularly vulnerable.  In those cases, fans have been used to provide some help.  Newer, deeper rooting  grasses combined with efforts to improve air circulation such as thinning trees and reducing mounds can be effective and in many cases may eliminate or at least reduce the need for fans.

[JR Potts]

2013...we were well ahead of that pace in 2012 before shutting it.  The traffic we plow though that course is ridiculous.  In my opinion, ridiculously bad.

[John Kavanaugh]

Shel,

I believe that you like me have probably spent close to 50 years playing golf in the Midwest. Sometimes greens die, it's part of the game. What is important is to accept these rare set backs with grace and not make knee jerk relations that diminish our future enjoyment of the game. Not an easy task in our impatient world.

[David_Tepper]

One frequently sees fans in the vineyards of Napa Valley.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fans+in+vineyards&client=firefox-a&hs=SHr&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=HVuVUvnPF4nqoASE44L4DQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1067&bih=559

[John Kavanaugh]

One frequently sees fans in the vineyards of Napa Valley.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fans+in+vineyards&client=firefox-a&hs=SHr&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=HVuVUvnPF4nqoASE44L4DQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1067&bih=559

What wines are they nurturing?  Pinot Can't Grow, Mer Doh! or my personal fave Zinfailure. I guess the raisin market is weak this year and you can't drink dirt.

[igrowgrass]

adjective
adjective: obsolete

    1.
    no longer produced or used; out of date.
    "the disposal of old and obsolete machinery"
    "most of the machinery in their Somerville plant is obsolete"
    antonyms:   cutting-edge, the latest, modern
    2.  
    Biology (of a part or characteristic of an organism) less developed than formerly or in a related species; rudimentary; vestigial.

verb

    1.
    cause (a product or idea) to be or become obsolete by replacing it with something new.
    "we're trying to stimulate the business by obsoleting last year's designs"

For something to be obsolete doesn't it require something better to be made or used?
I might be behind on seed research, but has an all purpose, need no attention turfgrass been released?

[Terry Lavin]

Jaka B, scab picker extraordinaire:  My answer is "No", turf fans are not obsolete. I still am a fan of turf.

Hoping this helps, I leave you to your flock...er..,antagonists!

[John Kavanaugh]

Sean,

Golf was being played close to 400 years before the invention of a practical electric motor. Fans are not a needed or a practical part of the game. They are only the product of a past environment of unlimited budgets and excess. Some devices become economically obsolete before the invention of a even more expensive replacement.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jaka B, scab picker extraordinaire:  My answer is "No", turf fans are not obsolete. I still am a fan of turf.

Hoping this helps, I leave you to your flock...er..,antagonists!

I was told today by one of the top superintendents in the country that the turf conditions at Oakmont in 1973 would be unacceptable by today's standards. That indicates a problem with the standards not the turf.

[SL_Solow]

Barney;  Some of what you say reminds me of King Canute ordering the tide not to come in.  Whether we ever should have worked to propagate strains of grasses that allow us to create the smooth fast surfaces that we all enjoy and many demand is a moot point.  They exist and  it appears that there will be no turning back.  The next step will be to bred grasses that perform the same way with less water and less chemicals.  But once the genie is out of the bottle, it will never go back.  Unfortunately, those who are a little behind the curve have to try to compete.  They are the ones who have to do extraordinary things to keep their grass alive.  Given what the others have, it is no longer acceptable to say sometimes greens die.  Incidentally, my former super of 48 years (who you met) never lost a green.  He came close but in his day we allowed him to slow the greens down to match conditions.  Not today, at least not to the degree needed.