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Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2009, 02:44:07 PM »
Ed,

How are things going at Carolina?  I saw this old thread linked in a current one, and I must have missed this thread originally late last year.  Just wondering how things have progressed and how everyone things about the work now at CGC?

I got to play MPCC several months back, and hope to get up to CGC sometime in the next month or two.  I would love to hear how the members have received the changes.

Daryl

Daryl, I think I am safe in characterizing the membership's feelings as euphoric.  Probably more so today than when we re-opened since we now know there is staying power beyond the initial schoolboy infatuation phase.  Honestly, I have to pinch myself every time I go there to believe what I see is real.  Its just remarkable to think that a transformation of this type can occur at a club of such humble stature.  I can't say how good the course is because it is impossible for me to ignore where we came from in evaluating where we are today.  But unlike many restorations/renovations, our changes were not about tournaments, rankings or recognition.  Rather this was strictly about honoring and preserving our roots for the membership.  So I think we did things for the right reasons.  And, in that regards, the changes are, in my opinion, a rousing success by the only measuring stick that really matters.  If others share our enthusiasm, then all the better. 

Ed

PS - Shoot me an IM when you are coming.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2009, 10:09:13 PM »
As an older member -- not really an old member -- I want to back up Ed.  Just played a 4-ball today with a 22 year-old, 50 year-old, 58 year-old and 67 year-old (moi).  Safe to say we had a blast.  It's a members' club.  We're not going to host the U.S. Open or anything like that.  The course was packed on a hot Sunday afternoon, but play moved right along.  Less than one year from sprigging, the Burmuda fairways are coming in very nicely.  The fescues are growing in well (you may think too well if you hit into them).  The variety to well-spaced teeing areas provides a course for everone.  The greens are intersting and challenging, without being "impossible."  The tree control scheme has opened things up to the the cooling breezes, such as they were today, and to real winds earlier this spring.  Renovation architect Kris Spence and greenkeeper crew, Matt Warton in charge, along with Brian Schick, Chair of the Green Committee for the renovation, and GM Roger Wolfe, are to be commended.  Sorry if this sounds like puffery, but when you feel good about your home club/course why not express it?

Lawrence Largent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2009, 11:32:47 PM »
Were any changes made to the 9th green?  I played the fall invitational four-ball a few years back and I remember that green being very difficult.

Lawrence

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2009, 12:10:21 AM »
looks good. I look forward to seeing in person. Thanks for the slideshow.

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2009, 09:12:41 AM »
I played Carolina yesterday morning and CC of Spartanburg yesterday afternoon. Excellent work by Kris Spence on both counts. 

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2009, 09:17:09 AM »
Were any changes made to the 9th green?  I played the fall invitational four-ball a few years back and I remember that green being very difficult.

Lawrence

Significant changes.  The green has been pulled back away from the road in front of the clubhouse (with a large hollow created between the back of the green and the road), and substantially enlarged and square-shaped.  There are still two tiers, but the slope has been diminished greatly.  The length of the hole remains about the same, with the back tees being pushed almost to Old Steele Creek Rd.  Take a look it in Ed Oden's slide show of the entire course.   http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157608575550343/show/

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2009, 09:24:42 AM »
Were any changes made to the 9th green?  I played the fall invitational four-ball a few years back and I remember that green being very difficult.

Lawrence

Lawrence, as Carl mentions, the 9th green has been changed.  As you probably recall, the old green was severely sloped back to front with a huge tier separating the front and back halves.  Erosion and top dressing had created a convex shape that further distorted things.  And the clubhouse (with the glass window of the bar) was literally steps behind the green.  Brad Klein described this green as "awful" and "dangerous" in his consulting report.  I don't have a picture of the old green, but here is what the hole used to look like from the tee, entirely choked by trees...



Here is what the hole looks like today from the tee...



...from just short of the green...



...and from behind...



Ed

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2009, 11:45:23 AM »
Here is hole #11 at CGC:

Before, during construction and after...
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 11:53:54 AM by Roger Wolfe »

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2009, 12:00:01 PM »
#13

Before, during and after construction...

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2009, 12:04:39 PM »
#8

Before, during and after construction...

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2009, 12:11:44 PM »
#15 Before, During and After

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2009, 12:25:13 PM »
Kris, I have noticed that you have been busy in the Charlotte, Greenville/Spartanburg corridor this past year.
I am always curious about what the club wants when it hires an architect to do a majore renovation.  When Carolina, MPCC,or Furman, hired you did they give you a mandate or a free hand?  I'd be interested to hear more about what Meyers Park was like before the renovation. I played MPCC and the newly renovated Charlotte CC on successive days this year and while they seem to be on similar terrain they played very differently.  Charlotte wants a big time event.  My guess is that MPCC does not, but wanted a course more user friendly.  True?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kris Spence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2009, 05:39:42 PM »

Kris, I have noticed that you have been busy in the Charlotte, Greenville/Spartanburg corridor this past year.
I am always curious about what the club wants when it hires an architect to do a majore renovation. 

A.  Tommy, it depends on the needs of each club.  In most cases there are agronomic/quality concerns with greens, tees, bunkers,irrigation that drive the initial inquiry.   In several cases it has been dissatisfaction with prior projects or the desire to follow the flow of other successful projects in the region.  Regaining or strengthening their competitive edge has played a big role as well.  My purest restorative project to date was Mimosa Hills in Morganton, the entire need for the project came about due to the fact the original clay based Ross greens would not support bentgrass to modern standards and the bunkers did not have drainage.  Restoration was a by product of needing to rebuild the greens and bunkers, therefore lost green space was reclaimed  and sand build up both in the bottom and on the sides of the bunkers was removed in the process.  At the same time we evaluated all the changes that had taken place and made various recommendations as to course length, tree work, irrigation, re-instating lost bunkers or repositioning a few into present day landing areas as long as the topography allowed.


Q.  \When Carolina, MPCC,or Furman, hired you did they give you a mandate or a free hand? 

A.  None of the clubs mentioned above spelled out a mandate other than to make it the best it can be given the restraints of the site, budgets etc.  In the case of Carolina and MPCC both clubs expressed their desire to maintain or reinstate as much of Ross original work as I felt appropriate, both gave me the final decision.  I do listen and work with  key  members who have an intimite knowlege of the course and its playing characteristics.  I prefer to build my initial impression and core ideas for the Master Plan independent of club member influence and then share my ideas later in the process through a preliminary plan with focus groups of members.  From these meetings the final Plan is determined.  I have gotten some of my best ideas from these membership focus group meetings. 

Q.  I'd be interested to hear more about what Meyers Park was like before the renovation. I played MPCC and the newly renovated Charlotte CC on successive days this year and while they seem to be on similar terrain they played very differently.  Charlotte wants a big time event.  My guess is that MPCC does not, but wanted a course more user friendly.  True?


A.  I would rather not comment on Myers Park before and I haven't seen Ron Prichards work at Charlotte CC, so I cant compare them.  In my opinion it makes no sense to compare them anyway, they were designed in two completely different eras of Ross' career as CCC was originally designed in 1910 and MPCC was a Ross remodel late in his career in 1945.  It would seem Ross was given specific instructions to design a  championship test at CCC due to the high number of bunkers I saw on the old aerials.  While MPCC is well bunkered in the landing areas and into and around the green sites, Ross did not install as many of the short directional and or crossing bunkers you see on his designs from the teen's and  20's when hickory shafts were used. 

The greens at MP are a mix of  restored greens and some new Ross style greens to fit a new location or angle etc.  I definitely try to read the membership and develop the course on a level that I think is appropriate.  We apparently got MPCC and Carolina right as the reports coming out of both facilities has been very positive.  Both courses will need this full season to mature, the last time I saw them the supers at both places had them well on their way.

I hope I answered your questions,




Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2009, 10:46:30 PM »

Kris, I have noticed that you have been busy in the Charlotte, Greenville/Spartanburg corridor this past year.
I am always curious about what the club wants when it hires an architect to do a majore renovation. 

A.  Tommy, it depends on the needs of each club.  In most cases there are agronomic/quality concerns with greens, tees, bunkers,irrigation that drive the initial inquiry.   In several cases it has been dissatisfaction with prior projects or the desire to follow the flow of other successful projects in the region.  Regaining or strengthening their competitive edge has played a big role as well.  My purest restorative project to date was Mimosa Hills in Morganton, the entire need for the project came about due to the fact the original clay based Ross greens would not support bentgrass to modern standards and the bunkers did not have drainage.  Restoration was a by product of needing to rebuild the greens and bunkers, therefore lost green space was reclaimed  and sand build up both in the bottom and on the sides of the bunkers was removed in the process.  At the same time we evaluated all the changes that had taken place and made various recommendations as to course length, tree work, irrigation, re-instating lost bunkers or repositioning a few into present day landing areas as long as the topography allowed.


Q.  \When Carolina, MPCC,or Furman, hired you did they give you a mandate or a free hand? 

A.  None of the clubs mentioned above spelled out a mandate other than to make it the best it can be given the restraints of the site, budgets etc.  In the case of Carolina and MPCC both clubs expressed their desire to maintain or reinstate as much of Ross original work as I felt appropriate, both gave me the final decision.  I do listen and work with  key  members who have an intimite knowlege of the course and its playing characteristics.  I prefer to build my initial impression and core ideas for the Master Plan independent of club member influence and then share my ideas later in the process through a preliminary plan with focus groups of members.  From these meetings the final Plan is determined.  I have gotten some of my best ideas from these membership focus group meetings. 

Q.  I'd be interested to hear more about what Meyers Park was like before the renovation. I played MPCC and the newly renovated Charlotte CC on successive days this year and while they seem to be on similar terrain they played very differently.  Charlotte wants a big time event.  My guess is that MPCC does not, but wanted a course more user friendly.  True?


A.  I would rather not comment on Myers Park before and I haven't seen Ron Prichards work at Charlotte CC, so I cant compare them.  In my opinion it makes no sense to compare them anyway, they were designed in two completely different eras of Ross' career as CCC was originally designed in 1910 and MPCC was a Ross remodel late in his career in 1945.  It would seem Ross was given specific instructions to design a  championship test at CCC due to the high number of bunkers I saw on the old aerials.  While MPCC is well bunkered in the landing areas and into and around the green sites, Ross did not install as many of the short directional and or crossing bunkers you see on his designs from the teen's and  20's when hickory shafts were used. 

The greens at MP are a mix of  restored greens and some new Ross style greens to fit a new location or angle etc.  I definitely try to read the membership and develop the course on a level that I think is appropriate.  We apparently got MPCC and Carolina right as the reports coming out of both facilities has been very positive.  Both courses will need this full season to mature, the last time I saw them the supers at both places had them well on their way.

I hope I answered your questions,





Thanks for your answer.  It is very helpful and tastefully done.  You answered the question more fully than I thought it could be answered. Thanks.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2013, 06:44:44 PM »
Nice to see this old thread.   Carolina is terrific, we played the Dixie Cup there in 2010 or 2011 I think.

Ed, the seventh green must be the scariest green at CGC.   I think our four ball may have had 16 putts (and maybe a couple of follow up chips) with a pin just in front of the ridge on the left side.    :o
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 08:21:44 PM by Bill_McBride »

BCowan

Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2013, 07:21:45 PM »
Wow Awesome Restoration, I am glad you made the changes!   

    Leaving the North for Durham on Friday, seems as the cold is coming with me! 

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2013, 08:01:02 PM »
This course is good enough to make you wish for a cancelled flight or a long layover at CLT.

I really enjoyed 1, 7-9, and 10-13 but for me at least the point of a good Ross isn't so much the individual holes as the whole. The way the pars and lengths fit together, the general feel of the walk, and the siting of the greens. I can't tell you how excited I get for uphill Ross par 4s. They are almost uniformly exciting. He even makes the straight ones fun. I wish I understood how he managed to make such holes challenging, even hard, yet still fun.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

BCowan

Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2013, 08:08:46 PM »
They look like Bent greens, are they?

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2013, 09:04:11 PM »
Mr Oden, Mr. Spence,

Mr. Oden, to you first, thank you for posting this pictorial.  The 9th...wow...

I was wondering along with some of the questions already posted...

1.  (Mr. Oden) How did you go about convincing the bulk of the membership to go along with this?

2.  (Mr. Oden) From the first meeting of, I'm guessing your Greens Committee, to Kris actually spelling out his changes, how much time passed?

3. (Mr. Spence) Can you spell out the differences of working with members of your two Ross restorations vs. lessor known ones?  My assumption is there is a pretty big difference because of the pedigree?

Thank you gentlemen.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2013, 09:46:26 PM »
They look like Bent greens, are they?

Yes.

Matt Wharton

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2013, 02:38:37 PM »
Mr Oden, Mr. Spence,

Mr. Oden, to you first, thank you for posting this pictorial.  The 9th...wow...

I was wondering along with some of the questions already posted...

1.  (Mr. Oden) How did you go about convincing the bulk of the membership to go along with this?

2.  (Mr. Oden) From the first meeting of, I'm guessing your Greens Committee, to Kris actually spelling out his changes, how much time passed?

3. (Mr. Spence) Can you spell out the differences of working with members of your two Ross restorations vs. lessor known ones?  My assumption is there is a pretty big difference because of the pedigree?

Thank you gentlemen.

Joe,

I am the superintendent at Carolina...Carl Johnson and Ed Oden are members and Roger Wolfe is GM (all post on GCA).  This project was a little unorthodox to say the least.  The project was completed in four phases over a period of several years.  Prior to the onset of this project Carolina Golf Club had two pressing issues...small, inadequate practice facilities and lack of suitable irrigation water.  The existing practice facility prior to 2005 was a small range (about 12 stalls) located between the 8th and 16th holes (left off the 8th tee was OB into the range).  Two small ponds served as the irrigation water supply and they were shallow...the club used to purchase water from the city to supplement the supply during the summer months.  The club was fortunate to acquire over 40 acres of undeveloped, adjacent property sometime in late 2004-early 2005.  Also, the city of Charlotte was in the planning stages of major infrastructure upgrades (water and sewer systems) with discussions already in the works about acquiring an easement through Carolina Golf Club.

Phase I - May 2005 I am hired as superintendent and two weeks later the club breaks ground on the construction of two new golf holes on the newly acquired land which now serve as holes 1 and 2 designed by Kris Spence.  Phase II - The new holes are opened for play and the previous existing first and second holes are reconstructed into a new practice facility and short game area designed by Kris Spence.  Phase III - a deep ravine and stream channel between the newly constructed second and the existing tenth holes is dammed to create a 7+ acre lake to serve as the course's primary irrigation supply.  Phase IV - The golf course is closed and the reconstruction/restoration of the remainder of the golf course is conducted by Kris Spence in 2008.

During this time the city of Charlotte did proceed with their infrastructure upgrades and route both a water main and sewer main through portions of the property.  This work would have taken place regardless whether or not Carolina Golf Club elected to perform any course renovation work.  The club was able to work together with the city to coordinate the efforts and thus all city disturbances were complete prior to Kris and his team reworking those golf holes.  In all it was an amazing project and an amazing transformation... hard to believe it has been 5 years since things wrapped up.  I feel blessed to be part of such a special project and I continue to enjoy watching this golf course mature and evolve.
Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Carolina GC (Ross restored by Spence)
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2013, 03:31:00 PM »
Hi Joe,

I emailed you a few pdf's directly.  I hope they help!

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