Dunes Club - New Buffalo Michigan - Is it Worthy?

[Bob_Garvelink]

Gents,

A friend of mine played the Dunes Club this year and told me it was the best golf experience of his life.  At first this took me by surprise as this guy has played such courses as Crystal Downs, Cypress Point, Kingsley, Augusta National, Bandon Dunes and many others.  As many of you know it's a nine hole golf course that is often compared to Pine Valley.  Although I have never played it I was told that some holes have up to seven tee boxes which allows golfer multiple options and I'm sure it's an amazing match play experience.

At first I thought that there is no way a 9 hole course could be considered one of the best in the world but after having some time to think about the possibilities that a course like this would present to golfers I am starting to become a believer.  I am only a 45 minute drive from Dunes Club so I hope that someday I am able to experience this gem first hand.  

As I sit here and think about the benefits a nine hole course presents I wonder that in the next 100-250 years will courses like this become the norm?  I am also curious to know how you would answer the following questions:

1.  Is there any reason a nine hole course wouldn't be considered one of the best in the world.  Does a course with 9 holes get discriminated against for only having 9 holes?

2.  As land becomes more expensive and less available will 9 hole courses become the norm?

3.  What are some reasons why 9 hole courses would be failures in the future?

4.  What are some reasons 9 hole courses would be successful in the future?

Cheers!

Bob

[Bob_Garvelink]

I will chime in with my thoughts in a day or so

[Steve Salmen]

I've played Dunes Club a few times.  It is one of my favorite courses in the world.  It is as pure a golf experience you can have.  Each time I played in an outing there, the staff moved the flags after the first nine.  I don't know if they do that for regular member play but it certainly made the approaches more interesting.  

I could see more nine hole courses in the US due to time and land constraints.  Rare is the nine holer with so many wonderful holes.  

[Matt OBrien]

Dunes club ranks up there as one of my favorite in the world. I was amazed at the one man operation in the shop...Caddymaster/Pro/Chef/ and locker room..
Golf course was as close to pine valley as it will get. The different sets of tees offered a different look each hole as well as the fact that they changed the pins for us. I would love to get back there at some point.

[Tom_Doak]

Bob:

For The Confidential Guide, I rated nine-hole courses with a one-point deduction on the Doak scale -- so, a perfect nine-holer would get 9 out of 9, but if I thought the course was comparable to others that are a 7 on the Doak scale, it would get a 6.

The reason for that is it's just easier to build a great nine holes than a great 18.  There are wonderful courses with a great front nine or a great back nine, that can't hold the same level of quality for the full 18.

For the record, I rate one nine-hole course in the World Top 100, but it's not The Dunes Club -- it's Royal Worlington and Newmarket, in England.

[Terry Lavin]

Great course that's about to get better with significant tree removal. I'll have a gca day next summer.

[SL_Solow]

The problem with threads like this one is comparable to "grade inflation" in academics.  It is not enough to say a golf course is very good or a fine place to spend the day.  Instead it has to one of the best in the world or the country.  I have played the course numerous times.  I am fortunate enough to know, like and respect the owner.  I really like the course and the atmosphere.  It is located in a part of the country where I spent most of my youth in the summers so I feel great every time I approach it.  Having said all that, and recognizing that I could enjoy playing there on a regular basis, it does not measure up to the standards suggested in this thread.  The greens complexes and strategic challenges, while good, are not the equal of the very best courses.  It isn't even the best, by my way of thinking, in Michigan.  Head north a little ways to Crystal Downs and then give me a call.

[Ken Fry]

A wonderful golf course that's lost a bit of "mojo."

As Terry mentioned, significant tree removal is being done.  To what extent will be interesting to see.  Over the years, trees have encroached the playing corridors having a major effect on playability and strategy IMHO.  "Significant" tree removal means different things to different people.  I'll be up to play in spring so I'm looking forward to seeing the work done along with a little rework on the greens.

Bob, I do believe 9 hole courses are held to a different standard.  I understand TD's assertion that it's easier to build 9 good to great holes than a full 18.  From a consumer's perspective in this country, 9 hole courses are looked down upon, especially private ones.

I've heard the arguments for years:  "A nine hole course would get too boring."  "A nine hole course won't be tough enough."  "My friends don't want to come play a nine hole course."

If anyone makes it up to The Dunes Club, consider driving east about 25 miles on US 12 to Signal Point Club in Niles, MI.  Another fun 9 holer.

Ken

[Howard Riefs]

A good photo tour from Seitz:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49414.0.html

Great course that's about to get better with significant tree removal. I'll have a gca day next summer.

Great to gear on both accounts. Just leave in place that menacing "Olajuwon" (or insert your favorite shot blocker) tree that intrudes on the left side of #8. One tree that really gets in your head.

[JC Urbina]

Bob,

It is worth the effort to see and play if you can arrange it.

9 holes of fun, second trip around even better.   All about the fun factor.

I don't think 9 hole courses are failures, land developers may think so because they can't market them by the standards they are use to.

It is all about the time spent on the golf course.   9 holes in less then two hours and done, on to other family activities. Go hang out at the private clubs, more and more young adults don't want to spend 5 1/2  hours on a golf course.

Seitz, you need to go take some new photos. as Terry has mentioned the look is changing.

Terry, have you been back this fall?

[Terry Lavin]

Haven't been there since August. The new Urbina greens are great but we had some stress in their first year which was annoying. I'm excited to see tree removal, especially around 3 green and left of 7 fairway.

[Bob_Garvelink]

The problem with threads like this one is comparable to "grade inflation" in academics.  It is not enough to say a golf course is very good or a fine place to spend the day.  Instead it has to one of the best in the world or the country.  I have played the course numerous times.  I am fortunate enough to know, like and respect the owner.  I really like the course and the atmosphere.  It is located in a part of the country where I spent most of my youth in the summers so I feel great every time I approach it.  Having said all that, and recognizing that I could enjoy playing there on a regular basis, it does not measure up to the standards suggested in this thread.  The greens complexes and strategic challenges, while good, are not the equal of the very best courses.  It isn't even the best, by my way of thinking, in Michigan.  Head north a little ways to Crystal Downs and then give me a call.

Is that an invite to CD 

[Tom_Doak]

Bob, I do believe 9 hole courses are held to a different standard.  I understand TD's assertion that it's easier to build 9 good to great holes than a full 18.  From a consumer's perspective in this country, 9 hole courses are looked down upon, especially private ones.

I've heard the arguments for years:  "A nine hole course would get too boring."  "A nine hole course won't be tough enough."  "My friends don't want to come play a nine hole course."

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that 9-hole courses should be looked down upon.  There are some great ones, including The Dunes, where going around twice is the best part.  A -1 point deduction on the Doak scale still gives the possibility for good nine-holers to be rated higher than many/most 18-hole courses.

I told the GOLFWEEK gathering in Pinehurst a couple of weeks back that I think 9-hole rounds are the future of golf in America.  I was surprised to learn from one club professional that the majority of rounds at his club today are 9 holes, because of time pressure.  Some of the private clubs that are hanging on by their fingernails might do much better by downsizing to nine holes [plus a good practice facility or maybe a kids' course], and selling some of their property to help pay the bills.  It would sure be better than getting foreclosed upon.

[Jud_T]

Wait.  New Urbina greens?!  Is this the first we're hearing about this or am I just getting old and senile?

[Cliff Hamm]

Anyone who has played the Dunes Club and Whitinsville care to compare the two?

[Bob_Garvelink]

Gents,

Sorry about the typos but my ipad has a mind of its own  

Here are my thoughts on the questions I posed.

1.  I think that 9 hole courses do get discriminated against and it's a shame.  Tom D. Made a great point and I agree with him that its a lot easier to make 9 amazing holes than 18 amazing holes.  Anything that goes against the tradition of golf will likely ruffle feathers but the thought of 9 hole courses has me intrigued.  I firmly believe that anything that goes against the grain of golf is,good for the game.  I don't have a problem with a 9 hole course being named as one of the best in the world although I'm sure that a lot of you would.

2.  I do think that 9 hole courses will become more of the norm in the next 100-250 years.  As land becomes more expensive and as older courses flame out people will likely look for other options.  I feel that the younger generations are time sensitive.  A lot of,people don't have 4 hours to spend away from the family so eventually 9 hole rounds will become more popular.  There are a few courses in my area that already offer 3,5,7,12 hole rates and I was surprised when I asked the pro how popular the 5 hole rate was and he told me it was a huge hit.  

3.  Reasons why a 9 hole course would fail - goes against tradition and pace of play issues

4.  Reasons why a 9 hole course would be successful - better conditioning because the maintenance staff only has 9 holes to focus on, smaller operational costs, 9 hole rounds will become the new norm as people won't have that much time to play golf, the uniqueness of multiple tee options

Will 9 hole courses become the norm?  Only time will tell but I personally like the idea of something that's a little bit different.

Cheers!

Bob

[Ken Fry]

Bob, I do believe 9 hole courses are held to a different standard.  I understand TD's assertion that it's easier to build 9 good to great holes than a full 18.  From a consumer's perspective in this country, 9 hole courses are looked down upon, especially private ones.

I've heard the arguments for years:  "A nine hole course would get too boring."  "A nine hole course won't be tough enough."  "My friends don't want to come play a nine hole course."

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that 9-hole courses should be looked down upon.  There are some great ones, including The Dunes, where going around twice is the best part.  A -1 point deduction on the Doak scale still gives the possibility for good nine-holers to be rated higher than many/most 18-hole courses.

I told the GOLFWEEK gathering in Pinehurst a couple of weeks back that I think 9-hole rounds are the future of golf in America.  I was surprised to learn from one club professional that the majority of rounds at his club today are 9 holes, because of time pressure.  Some of the private clubs that are hanging on by their fingernails might do much better by downsizing to nine holes [plus a good practice facility or maybe a kids' course], and selling some of their property to help pay the bills.  It would sure be better than getting foreclosed upon.

Tom,

I was acknowledging your point about designing 9 hole vs. 18 hole courses.  The other comments were remarks I heard numerous times from people when I was helping Signal Point try to recruit new members.  If it came across I was implying those were your opinions, that was not the case.

I agree 9 hole courses or shorter 18 hole courses could be the answer to many problems golf is facing in the US, but the majority of public opinion I've run across isn't ready to accept that philosophy.

Ken

[Tom_Doak]

1.  I think that 9 hole courses do get discriminated against and it's a shame.  Tom D. Made a great point and I agree with him that its a lot easier to make 9 amazing holes than 18 amazing holes.  Anything that goes against the tradition of golf will likely ruffle feathers but the thought of 9 hole courses has me intrigued.  I firmly believe that anything that goes against the grain of golf is,good for the game.  I don't have a problem with a 9 hole course being named as one of the best in the world although I'm sure that a lot of you would.

Bob:

How the hell is a nine-hole course "against the tradition of golf" ?  The oldest course in the world, Musselburgh Old Links, is and always was a nine-hole course.  Eighteen holes didn't become the norm until the late 1800's.

[Tom_Doak]

Anyone who has played the Dunes Club and Whitinsville care to compare the two?

I've had them as the top two nine-hole courses in the U.S., but my preference is for Whitinsville ... the contour of the property is cooler, and so are the greens.  

The Dunes Club has some really cool features -- the sandy areas off the fairways are excellent, and it has some of the coolest tees in the world -- but it was always too tight for my tastes, happy to hear they are clearing things out.  It suffers a bit from being on a very small piece of property, which results in a lot of back-and-forth holes in the routing.  Whitinsville has more room to breathe, so the plan fits the ground like a glove.

[Bob_Garvelink]

1.  I think that 9 hole courses do get discriminated against and it's a shame.  Tom D. Made a great point and I agree with him that its a lot easier to make 9 amazing holes than 18 amazing holes.  Anything that goes against the tradition of golf will likely ruffle feathers but the thought of 9 hole courses has me intrigued.  I firmly believe that anything that goes against the grain of golf is,good for the game.  I don't have a problem with a 9 hole course being named as one of the best in the world although I'm sure that a lot of you would.

Bob:

How the hell is a nine-hole course "against the tradition of golf" ?  The oldest course in the world, Musselburgh Old Links, is and always was a nine-hole course.  Eighteen holes didn't become the norm until the late 1800's.

Tom,

My point is that 9 hole courses are not the norm and that itself causes most people to discriminate or look down upon them or not in the same light as a course with 18 holes.  Cheers and good luck with your Forest Dunes project!

[PCCraig]

I first played the Dunes when I was 14 or so. To a guy used to tree lined, flat, parkland courses  the Dunes Club was a revelation. I really credit it to initiating my love of golf course architecture. The golf course and club is just pure fun and run perfectly.

I would also like to here what JC Urbina has done out there this fall...

[Terry Lavin]

I've been a member for ten years. The course has many great attributes. The sandy waste areas, the rolling dunescape and the multiple tee boxes are all fabulous. From a playing perspective, there is one constant: the course is very difficult. For an average driver (230 for instance), the par fours are all hard to hit in regulation. The third hole, a par 5 is not so long but it is very tight, tree lined  and has a fifty yard waste bunker in front of the green. The 8th hole is a very hard-to-hit-in-two par five with a Willie Mays tree (catches everything) that blocks most of the left side of the fairway at 100 yards out. It needs to die. But Keiser will never cut it down.

Jim Urbina rebuilt four greens in an effort to make them more playable, less severe and larger in a couple instances. More tree removal is needed for a few reasons. There's a playing corridor issue an at least four holes that needs to be relieved. There are at least 100 pines that should be donated as Christmas trees this year. And, finally, the seventh hole has as many trees right and left that there are no options off the tee but one.

I am sure the end result will be more fun to play. It's been too hard IMHO. It should be much more pleasing to the eye and I'm very fired up to see the second stage of Jim's work come to its fruition.

[SL_Solow]

I have not been out since Jim began his work and I am excited to see it.  As an aside, I always thought that this was the best work I have seen by Dick Nugent (and I have seen quite a bit).  I attributed that to the nature of he site and the influence of the owner  That shouldnot be taken to mean that Nugent die "bad" work.  But this was quite different and more to my liking.

[PCCraig]

Thanks for the update Terry.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bob,

In 1958 the majority of golf courses in the US were of the 9 hole variety. A Green Section report from the period stated that there were an estimated 5,745 golf courses in the US, 3,308 of which were 9-holers and 2,437 were 18.  If a majority can be considered 'the norm', you'd have to say that 9s were it, at least 5 1/2 decades ago.

The same report also stated that about 10% of all new construction was in golf/real estate developments, and given the economics of 9s and 18s it was almost a sure bet that the tables would be turned in favor of 18s in the upcoming decades.

Those tables have a good chance of turning once again, given all the constraints placed on modern-day golf, and it's very possible we'll see more 9s being built (or carved out of failing 18s), along with 6s, or 12s, or perhaps some 3s, in the future. 'The norm' has changed in the past, and if a wider vision of normal is to be achieved it will require people with foresight and funds. The whole process of change would get a shot in the arm if the present GHIN system were modified to accept scores from any number of holes.