Crossing holes

[Jeff_Mingay]

I'm working on a plan for a course where I think the solution to a tough spot on the property are (possibly) parallel holes that cross on the tee shots; which has me wondering if there are any "modern era" examples of crossing holes that work well... if any exist, at all?

The classic links examples are mostly well known (ie 7 and 11 at the Old Course); and, Mackenzie's Claremont, in Oakland, has an example or two, I think... any others from more modern times? Curious,

[Bill_McBride]

Could it be possible in these litigious times to have crossing holes?   I can't think of a one.....

[Steve Lang]

   this could be one of the shortest threads ever..

[Bryan Izatt]

Jeff,

I'm curious on what you mean by parallel holes that cross on the tee shot.  Things that are parallel don't generally cross.  Could you provide a little diagram or description to clarify. 

The only other crossing hole I've played, other than TOC, is at Gourock.  It's 1896 which is "modern" by TOC standards, but I doubt yours.

[JWL]

Jeff
We had a difficult situation at Pasadera outside Monterey CA, where we crossed a par three shot over the middle of the tee shot on a par 4.   The land configuration on the edge of the property just didn't allow any other solution.   To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been any problems with either hole   Pasadera holes 5 and 6, for reference.  

[Bill_McBride]

Jeff
We had a difficult situation at Pasadera outside Monterey CA, where we crossed a par three shot over the middle of the tee shot on a par 4.   The land configuration on the edge of the property just didn't allow any other solution.   To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been any problems with either hole   Pasadera holes 5 and 6, for reference.  

Jim, is Pasadera private?  Not sure you could do that on a public access course.

[Jeff Shelman]

My club has two holes that are basically at a 90 degree angle to each other.

On the 12th tee, your shot goes in front of the 18th tee. On 18, your tee ball goes in front of the 12th tee.

It would be possible, I suppose, if two players teed off at the same time that balls could collide in the air.

But we basically just alternate back and forth if there are groups on each tee at the same time.

[mike_beene]

Not exactly a cross but the 9th tee at Belair plays over the 8th green. Not the same kind of timing issues as you get with the Old Course crossing.

[Ian Andrew]

Glendale G&CC in Hamilton

Middle three plays cliff top to cliff top over a valley where a long par four passes underneath.
The crossing is in the middle of the par four too.
Somehow this one works ... very well

[Jon Wiggett]

Fairly new course with this is Doonbeg if I am not mistaken.

Jon

[John Chilver-Stainer]

When crossed holes can reprieve a golf course routing and transform two short Par 4's with blind landing areas over the brow of an elevated area into competitive length par 4's with the landing areas on top of the brow of the elevated area, then the decision is easy.

I had such a case when designing the routing of the 18 hole Appenzeller G.C. in Switzerland.
The course was a new build and due to the very complex arrangement of the land available the crossed holes solution was comfortably the optimal solution.

The crossing was between the ladies and mens tees of the 14th holes and in front of all the tees on the 9th.
The two sets of tees are visible from one and other
The crossing is at about 75 degrees and 50m in front of the back tees.
Safety has not been an issue on the 9th tee from the 14th Tee, and the players on the 14th tee have priority to play and move away from any danger from the 9th.

The crossed holes have been operating since 2008 without any safety problems. Of course there can be slight delays as one flight plays before the other, however the benefits of the improved routing far outweigh the costs of delays

In an interesting sub note, shortly afterwards the Swiss Golf Association added new conditions to their rules for the Homologation of new golf courses, where crossed holes would not be accepted,

A short sighted view in my opinion.

The Appenzeller G.C. was not affected by the new rule however subsequent courses will be.

So maybe check the rules of your National Association, and if necessary negotiate with them if you don't want to have problems when the course is measured for acceptance into the National Associations handicapping system.

[Jon Wiggett]

In an interesting sub note, shortly afterwards the Swiss Golf Association added new conditions to their rules for the Homologation of new golf courses, where crossed holes would not be accepted,

A short sighted view in my opinion.

Yes John, but this rule is from a national association who policy was against expansion of the game even in the boom years which says it all  .

Jon

[Niall C]

Jeff

At Lossiemouth, a Par 3 on Moray New crosses the 9th on Moray Old fairly close to the tee. I'm pretty sure the par 3 hole is relatievly new, having been built in the 1970's when Henry Cotton extended the New from 9 holes to 18. It works OK, as their are signs on both tees warning of the dangers.

Niall

[Keith Phillips]

Bayonne - the 2nd and 8th holes have crossing tee shots - different schools of thought on how well it works, but I like it!

[Phil Lipper]

I think typically crossing holes lwork at private clubs, at a daily fee with alot of players new to the course its dangerous. Bayonne is a good example, its really not an issue unless someone is there for the first time and isnt told to pay attention. My club in NJ has a shared fairway, 6/9 (6 goes down, 9 comes back) that works fine using common sense on Saturday and Sunday mornings. Sunday afternoon when there alot of people out who hit the ball 50 yards and dont play alot its a mess.

[Brad Tufts]

Belmont Hills in Bermuda has two crossing holes...#3 and #6 I believe, both crossing the other hole's tee shot.

The golf shots are safe, but one must cross the 3rd hole line of play when walking from #5 green to #6 tee, then cross again after hitting the #6 tee ball.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Superior National will have a set, 2River and 3River.  2 is a par 3, 3 is a par 4, where we have moved the tees back across a river.

I think it works because the crossing point is over water, with no golfer access in the flight zones, the path on 3 goes behind the second green, and there are trees protecting the potentially hazardous third tee from shots off the second.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

There are tons of examples overseas where crossing holes work, or at least, to the point of hitting a tee shot across the previous green.

95% of the successful examples involve one of the holes being a par-3.  When the hole is a par-3, it's much easier to predict the traffic flow and timing of the traffic.  If you've just finished a par-3, you know that the group behind you is still on the tee, so the green is probably going to be wide open for you to back up and hit a tee shot over it ... as long as you don't have to wait on somebody in the fairway.  Slow play makes crossing holes tougher to execute, and of course, crossing holes tend to cause delays in play, too.

The only par-4 crossover I've seen in America in the last 20 years was for two holes at Oak Tree Country Club ... the second course at Oak Tree.  One hole is like the 18th at the TPC Sawgrass, and the other hole runs the same direction down the opposite side of the pond, so Mr. Dye made the tee shots cross over, over the lake.  No traffic problems there, as all the traffic crosses over behind the tees on the way to the fairway.

I've drawn crossover solutions for a couple of holes on projects we've made plans for.  One was a resort in the Turks & Caicos ... the other was a redesign in Japan.  Neither of those projects got built, though, so my first crossover that sees the light of day will be the one at Tara-Iti in New Zealand ... where the tee shots for the par-4 3rd and par-5 5th cross at 90 degrees, about 75 yards in front of the tee, in full view.  It might occasionally cause someone to wait a minute or two on the tee, and admire the views of the ocean, but the course is not going to be very busy so it's no big deal.

[Thomas Dai]

The 16th and 18th at Royal Lytham cross over.

The opening tee shot at Whittington Heath is hit across the 18th green.

Once-upon-a time didn't they used to sometimes play TOC going from the 1st tee to 17th green and then around the remainder of the course in some kind of reverse order presumable finishing by going from the 2nd tee to the 18th green. That's a few crossovers.

All the best

[Michael Felton]

Royal Porthcawl also has a crossover. The tee shot on the 1st crosses the 18th fairway. I believe they are trying to move the tee behind the 18th green so that they no longer have the crossover and I think are hoping to get an Open there. The British Seniors Open is going to be there next year too. I'm not sure if they're going to move the tee for that one or not.

[jeffwarne]

The new back tees on 6 and 13 at The Bridge cross over greens and on 13,also across 12 fairway.
Ironically, neither tee was built to make the hole longer, but rather to soften green to tee walks.
There's a bit of timing involved on 13 (only noticed when playing an event where everyone's there), but as Tom said , on 6 there's no issue ever as the green it crosses (5 ) is a par 3 .

[Bryan Lewis]

My favorite cross overs are the two little par 3's on the Eden Course.  I just love those holes!  Not sure if they originally crossed over or if that is a modern adaptation.

Bryan

[Greg Taylor]

Having been a member at Sutton Coldfield for ten years I can tell you the third and the 12th tee shots cross over... in the strictest sense.

It's a huge PITA as you have to establish who hit's first, walk for the group to tee off etc...

If it really is the only solution then obviously go for it, but having been on the "receiving end" as a customer so to speak... it's not something that I would enter into lightly.

[Mark Provenzano]

Two holes at Cinnabar Hills (Mountain Nine) in San Jose cross off the tee:



The holes have alternating tee boxes at the top of the hill, with drives crossing at a fairly acute angle. The holes eventually dogleg in opposite directions.

The setup does cause delays at times, on a course that's usually busy, as you have to wait for one group to clear the shared downhill cart path before hitting on the other hole. There are other tee boxes to the left of the yellow line.

[Niall C]

Jeff:

There are tons of examples overseas where crossing holes work, or at least, to the point of hitting a tee shot across the previous green.

95% of the successful examples involve one of the holes being a par-3.  When the hole is a par-3, it's much easier to predict the traffic flow and timing of the traffic.  If you've just finished a par-3, you know that the group behind you is still on the tee, so the green is probably going to be wide open for you to back up and hit a tee shot over it ... as long as you don't have to wait on somebody in the fairway.  Slow play makes crossing holes tougher to execute, and of course, crossing holes tend to cause delays in play, too.

The only par-4 crossover I've seen in America in the last 20 years was for two holes at Oak Tree Country Club ... the second course at Oak Tree.  One hole is like the 18th at the TPC Sawgrass, and the other hole runs the same direction down the opposite side of the pond, so Mr. Dye made the tee shots cross over, over the lake.  No traffic problems there, as all the traffic crosses over behind the tees on the way to the fairway.

I've drawn crossover solutions for a couple of holes on projects we've made plans for.  One was a resort in the Turks & Caicos ... the other was a redesign in Japan.  Neither of those projects got built, though, so my first crossover that sees the light of day will be the one at Tara-Iti in New Zealand ... where the tee shots for the par-4 3rd and par-5 5th cross at 90 degrees, about 75 yards in front of the tee, in full view.  It might occasionally cause someone to wait a minute or two on the tee, and admire the views of the ocean, but the course is not going to be very busy so it's no big deal.

Tom

I think you've hit the nail on the head. If you can make sure the cross over area isn't also a landing area where players will be hitting from. In the Lossiemouth example I gave the holes crossed at 90 degrees and about 50-70 yards in front of each tee.

Niall