[Paul OConnor]

"I'd also like to see the creek restored that used to cross from 1 to 18 (you can still make out the subtle swale that runs across this portion of the property), but I'm pretty sure that would require some major work over by the railway line and thus is a near impossible dream."

I think the creek is just running in a pipe down there.  If you dig around on the left side of 1, you can find where it enters that pipe, and then runs acroos 1, 9, and 10 into the little pond.  I don't think it would require anything from the railroad.  But moving anything that has water involved is a major PITA, plus the grounds crew would have alot more work cutting fairways and maintaining banks.  I think it would be great.  .  It would be a 260 yard carry from the back of the new back tee on #1 over that creek.  Pretty awesome and intimidating shot.  

[Sven Nilsen]

Hole 13 (Par 4) - 415/395/380

The Drive - A cape style drive, with the corner of the dogleg left protected by two large bunkers.  Running along the left side of the hole is a small creek obscured by high reeds.  The right side presents a transition from fairway to light rough to heavy gunch.  Long hitters may try to challenge the bunkers, although the fairway starts to narrow just as it makes its turn around the bunkers.  The left to right slope of the terrain in the fairway may help to guide a drive towards the green, but beware of blasting through the fairway into a group of thick trees and bush which is not marked as a hazard.  Most players will take a line just to the right of the bunkers, hoping to get a bit of roll up into the corner of the dogleg.  The further to the right your drive wanders, the longer your approach is going to be.

The Approach - It is unlikely you've found a level lie on this fairway, so you are most likely going to have to play the ball from above your feet to a green that runs hard from right to left.  The old false front rises from the front left corner of the green, with a more level area extending from the fairway on the right side.  Just about every shot into this green will run out, making shots to a front pin (generally placed just above the false front) a very tricky shot and the rear bunkers a popular spot.  The optimal shot will start just inside the greenside bunker on the right, hopefully landing just short and bouncing on.  Avoid a push to the right, as OB creeps in beyond the tree line.

The Green - A deceptive surface that contains more break than meets the eye.  Putts towards the back of the green are going to be faster than they appear, and anything from the front left corner is going to require good judgment in getting up and over the false front without getting away.  On longer putts towards the back of the green, beware of having the ball take off to the left, as the green feeds off of the back left corner.

Notes - Any discussion of the 13th needs to take into account the recent changes to the hole.  The hole used to play on a straight line to the green, with the fairway sitting well to the left of the current iteration.  Thus, the false front of the green was aligned with the old line of play.  It was an interesting move to leave the green as it was while moving the angle of attack.  The 13th and 14th holes are also maligned for not feeling like the rest of the course.  The lack of trees and general open feel do feel a bit alien.  However, the land here has always been part of the course and was always an open area.  In fact, the old 5th and 6th holes played across similar terrain, as did several holes from the NLE 2nd and 3rd courses.  The one benefit of the openness is that the sun always seems to shine on the 13th.

Summary - A challenging mid-length par 4.  Despite the relative openness of the hole, there is plenty of trouble to be found.  I'd say its a hole that you can figure out on repeated plays, but just knowing where you should be doesn't make the execution any easier.

[Andrew Buck]

Andrew:

Not sure what purpose opening up the tree line on the right of 15N would serve, other than to expose players on 14 to being struck by an errant drive.  Its one spot on the course where trees serve a purpose other than comprising an area to avoid.  The treeline running down the left of the hole is one of the most picturesque features on the course, especially when viewed from the green.

There are areas on the Noth Course where the removal of trees would have a dramatic effect, including the portion of the course comprised of 1, 9, 10, 17 and 18.  Imagine having the area closest to the clubhouse play as one big open field.  I'd also like to see the creek restored that used to cross from 1 to 18 (you can still make out the subtle swale that runs across this portion of the property), but I'm pretty sure that would require some major work over by the railway line and thus is a near impossible dream.

Sven

Sven,

First let me say I've only played North about a half dozen times, and not for several years, so my limited experience and memory may not serve as well as the members participating in this thread.  I agree opening the entire area from 1 - 18 would be dramatic and visually appealing.  My memory serves that the trees on 10, in particular, do not feel native in the slightest.  

As for protection on 14, I'm sure there is a point and that may be enough to never consider opening that side.  If my memory is serving me correctly, however, I do agree with Judge that opening the view of the valley on 14 from 15 fairway would be visually appealing, as well as make the trees left on 15 more dramatic.    

Also, I didn't mean to hijack away from the well deserved discussion about the South course.

[Sven Nilsen]

Andrew:

If you've ever had a ball bounce back into the fairway on 15 from the trees on the right, you'd might disagree.  Same thought if the brush on the edge of the hillside has held a ball up from running all the way down to the creek.

If opened up, you'd have a nice view down to the 14th fairway, but you'd remove the sense of isolation you'd feel on both holes.  Not sure if that trade-off would be worth it.  You'd have to take down most of the trees between 12 and 14/17 and 12 to open up any real vistas.

Sven

PS - As an aside, on rare occasions someone will hit their drive so far right on 14 that they are actually in play on the 15th fairway.  Its a long lonely walk, but it is possible to play up towards 15 tee and try to save par.  I've also seen a par on 15 made from the 14th fairway, a true Houdini play.

[Paul OConnor]

13 – 415/395 Black/Blue

I like this hole, because it is not that easy, and it has a great green.  I cannot believe how many balls I have hit into those damn reeds on the left, mostly because there is about 35 yards of fairway to hit into, and another 20 yard of rough before the deep stuff. 

When I’m on this tee, I always think that it would be pretty cool to have a small area between the weeds and the pond be cut as fairway length grass, making available an extremely dangerous shortcut which opens up the best angle to the green.  A split fairway hole if you will, with the left fairway being only 20 yards wide and maybe 60 or 70 yards long, surrounded by water hazards. 

On the approach, I always aim for the right edge of the green, and the bank is supposed to kick the ball left and take a little pace off.  Sometimes it works.  The OB fence comes really close on the right side of this hole, and this OB is probably more in play than on any other OB on the course.  Apparently I’m not the only guy over here, because at the end of the year I always see about two dozen balls over the fence in that back yard. 

This is one of the great greens on the course, with the huge false front, and a couple subtle little ripples in the green.  Into the wind, the local pros and the Illini Invitational kids have a hard time scoring here. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Hole 14 (Par 3) - 150/150/135

The Tee Shot - Just off the back of the 13th tee sits the tee boxes for the 14th hole, which turns back to the north beginning the trek towards the clubhouse.  A retention pond lies between the tee and the green, wrapping around the left side of the green.  Bunkers flank the green on both sides and on the front, with the back edge of the front bunker built up in a manner that partially obscures the putting surface.  The green is a fairly narrow target, befitting a hole of this length.  There's a bit of room over the back of the green, however balls pulled to the left can kick off of a downslope to a watery demise.  The safe line is on the right third of the green, which takes the water out of play and allows balls to feed left with the predominate slope of the green.  Into the wind, make sure you have enough club to carry the front bunker (there are a few yards of short grass beyond the mounds on the back edge of the bunker and the start of the green).  With it, beware of ballooning anything that will drift too far left, right or long.  It may be hard for the golfer to accurately judge exactly what the wind is doing, as it tends to swirl a bit back in this corner of the course and may be a bit blocked out at the flag by the trees behind the green.  

The Green - With its left to right fall line and a slight back to front tilt, the green is probably the smallest on the course.  If you've found the surface, two putts are not that hard to come by.  The bunkers on the right present a significant challenge, as one has to play up to a green surface that is running away from you.  Shots from the front bunker and the catching bunker on the left are easier to negotiate.  The trickiest putts on the green are probably those from the front to a back right pin position, which will break more than you might expect.

Notes - Due to the club's rotation of teeing areas and pin locations, the 14th always plays right about the same yardage.  Wind can be a factor in club selection, but it would be nice to see front pins used with tees that have been moved up, and vice versa.  The club removed a large Willow tree short right of the green on the corner of the pond.  On your walk to the green, be sure to check out the former home of international music sensation R. Kelly, which would make an excellent candidate for an R-Rated "If These Walls Could Talk" program.

Summary - There's a lot going on here for a short hole, with the water and the gaping face of the front bunker presenting plenty of psychological distraction.  In reality, its a wedge or short iron to a green that yields its fair share of birdies.

[Terry Lavin]

Tough little hole that was greatly improved by Smyers bunker work.  The site of my most recent hole-in-one.

[Paul OConnor]

14 – 150 yards Black/Blue same tee

It gets really windy on this hole.  It seems to me that this hole plays just a little longer than the advertised yardage, I nearly always hit a half club more here.  

 Like most short holes, if you hit the green, they are pretty easy, and 14 is no different.  All the drama and fun starts when you don’t hit the green, and there are some tough spots on this one.  Obviously the water is one, but the right bunker is tough to get a shot close to a right half pin, and right of that is even harder.

I played a couple winters ago and hit one a little short and the ball kicked down out onto the ice, and just sat there, for weeks.  Every time I’d get a good day I’d go by there and see that damn ball just sitting out on the ice, just out of reach.  I guess I was just sane enough not to walk out there just to get that ball back.  

[Paul OConnor]

"On your walk to the green, be sure to check out the former home of international music sensation R. Kelly..."

Apparently the mansion has been recently acquired by one of the Isley Brothers.  So from now on things should be a little more mellow by the 14th green.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

"On your walk to the green, be sure to check out the former home of international music sensation R. Kelly..."

Apparently the mansion has been recently acquired by one of the Isley Brothers.  So from now on things should be a little more mellow by the 14th green.

It looked like it needed a little work, but the price was right towards the end.  It would have been a nice weekend home for you Paul.

[Paul OConnor]

Kyle, I could have hosted you in R. Kelly's version of the Jungle Room.  The $132,000 annual tax bill put me off a bit though, so I passed.

[Sven Nilsen]

Wonder if the tax bill is going to be adjusted now that the $5 mil. appraisal has been outdated.

And one wonders why the mortgage bubble burst.

[Ryan Kelly]

14 is a fun little hole.  I love the front bunker and the mounding in front.  Definitely, makes it deceptive on how much room there is between the mound and the front edge.  I also got to stop by and show Mr. Kelly who the real R. Kelly is.    Sven, remind me to tell you the funny story about that house and how it relates to my Dad.

[Sven Nilsen]

Ryan:

Knowing your Dad, I look forward to hearing the story.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Hole 15 (Par 4) - 430/430/382

The Drive - Another short walk from green to tee, the 15th plays downhill (an extension of the same hill we climbed at the 12th) to a fairly flat fairway.  Both sides of the hole slope upwards to tree covered hillsides, but don't let the specter of OB looming on the right cause any over compensation to the left, where all of the real trouble on the hole lurks.  Often longer hitters will pull a 3-wood to take a marshy area way up on the left out of play.  There's a bit of a speed slot on the right side emanating from the back of a hillock that extends into the fairway, which gives an extra boost on a fairway that is normally runway fast as it is.  You can set up an easier approach by trying to find the left half of the fairway, which creates a bit of strategy on the drive:  play it safe to the right, or take on the risk of a lost ball to open up the green.  Occasionally a longer hitter might find themselves playing the White Tees (perhaps during one of the Club's Tuesday afternoon Raiders events), in which case some thought should be given to the possibility of driving into the creek which cuts across the fairway about 80 yards short of the green.

The Approach -  The green has a long bunker running up the left side complemented by a second bunker sitting on the front right corner.  Any shot from the right side of the fairway is most likely going to have to carry the right bunker, with the one on the left side coming into play for a slight pull.  Like the mounding on the front of 14, the slight bumps on the back of the front right bunker can cause depth perception issues for pins placed beyond those contours.  With the wind at your back, this hole often plays shorter than the actual yardage.  But beware of coming up short on shots to a middle or right pin.  If the flag is cut in the front left lower portion of the green, being just short of the green is better than finding anything on the upper shelf.  The contours of the back left corner (the highest part of the green) can also be used to shape shots into that quadrant, with balls rolling just up to the back edge often taking a u turn and feeding back to the pin.  The open left side of the green allows a running shot for those that may have used the trees as a guide to find the fairway a good ways back.

The Green - A small shelf separates the lower left portion from the rest of the green, creating two distinct sections.  I really like the way the fairway melds into the front part of green without any noticeable changes in elevation, creating a seamless transition.  The back of the green is a smaller and mirror image version of the 1st hole, with the high portion at the back left influencing quite a few putts and creating the predominate left to right breaks in this section.  Beware of any putts along the back of the ridge, as not necessarily every putt will break towards the front of the green.

Notes - The 15th returns us to the central valley, and the busiest part of the course.  Take a moment to look at how the creek meanders through this portion of the property, and how the various holes and their tees and greens fit around it like a jigsaw puzzle.  Nothing feels too crowded, yet its an intimate setting.  

Summary - A downhill, downwind hole that gives the player the chance to air it out.  But getting out of position on this hole can cost you, and there are no easy putts on this green.  Its one of my favorites, purely because its the site of the first birdie I made on the South Course.

[Sven Nilsen]

Before we get into the last three holes, I thought I'd take a moment to talk about the match play merits of the South Course.  We'll revisit the thought once we've finished the tour, as anyone who knows will tell you the accounting ledger might have shifted drastically over the closing stretch.  

As discussed, the toughest holes on the South Course (other than perhaps 17) are on the front.  There are chances to score, especially on 4 and 7, but for the most part holes are more likely going to be given away as opposed to having been won on the first nine.  

The back nine is a different story, as it abounds with risk/reward opportunities and holes that can be attacked.  10 and 11 offer the chance for eagle or birdie, and 13, 14 and 15 can all be scoring holes.  

Keep this thought in mind while reading the descriptions of 16, 17 and 18.  Especially 18, as it might be the best DPTR* hole in the world.

*Double Press Twist Retwist

[Terry Lavin]

Sven:

Favorite hole on the South?  This is the worst hole on the property. You have to thread the needle and pray to get it in the fairway which is too narrow and hemmed in by trees left and right. A rather vanilla green that would look at home on any Dick Nugent course finishes the experience, just in time for another borderline goofy tee shot on the 16th.

[Sven Nilsen]

Terry:

"One of my favorites" was the quote, and you forgot the disclaimer as to why.  

I think you undersell the green.  The three primary pin locations (front, middle left and back right) all provide a ton of interest on both the approach and with putts to the hole.  There's also a great pin position tucked just past the bunker on the right that may be the toughest spot on the green to get close to.

As for the drive, there's more room out there than you make it sound (at least 35 yards of fairway at its widest with plenty of room to miss right the further down you get), and the way the hillsides work make it wider than the actual yardage.  The threading the needle aspect is really only in play from the back boxes, a shot appropriate for the challenge offered from those tees.  I wouldn't put it in the top 5 hardest driving holes on the property, which would include holes like 1 and 17 on South or 12 and 15 on the North Course.  Perhaps it suits my eye, but I've never had a problem feeling comfortable on the tee here.

That being said, I'm always in favor of widening the playing corridors, especially when the hole has a green that is more receptive from particular angles.  Here, I wouldn't touch the right side, but extending the treeline back on the left would bring the risk reward nature of playing close to the marshy area a bit more into focus.

If this is the worst hole on the property, I can live with it.

We'll get to 16, which is only as bad as the strategy employed.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Hole 16 (Par 4) - 365/365/342

The Drive - Taking a 90 degree turn to the East off of the back of the 15th green, the 16th plays over Butterfield Creek and up a sharp hillside that causes the landing area to be blind from the tee.  There is trouble on both sides, but there is significant width to save balls from heading towards OB on the right or the forest on the left.  A lone fairway bunker sits up the left side around 295 yards from the back tees, catching the slight pull that follows the fairway contours to its entrance.  Depending on your ball flight, there is ample room to start a ball on either edge with the idea of having it drift back to the middle.  But beware of the tall trees sitting just at the top of the hill on the right, which catch their fair share of misses on that side.  The hole generally plays downwind (often with a southern wind sweeping around the corner and up the hill), which counters any added yardage due to the uphill nature of the drive.

The Approach - After cresting the hill, the fairway flows downhill to a swale just before the straight edged front of the green, at which point a massive false front rises up to the midpoint of the 35 yard long green.  Most drives will leave the golfer with anywhere from 100 to 140 in (or less), suggesting a rather simple shot to the back portion of the green with a wedge or 9 iron.  However, the limited area to land such a shot and the possibility of a bit too much spin pulling a ball all the way off the front of the green complicate matters.  If the greens are running fast, the effective landing area is diminished further.  The player that errs slightly on the long side will mostly likely encounter a particularly thick area of rough sitting just beyond the green, and a push or pull to either side will end up in particularly deep flanking bunkers.  The bunker on the right is a no go zone, as its depth and the slope of the green running away from it make for very difficult up and downs.  The creative golfer may opt to run the ball up on to the green, bouncing a shot well short of the surface and letting the upslope serve to slow its speed so that it nestles on the back portion.  As balls move from right to left going up the false front, and because the left side of the green has a slightly softer upslope, it is easier for a ball to hold the surface on this side.

The Green - From the collection area at the front of the green, most putts will have to be played well right of the pin and with enough pace to make the climb.  Although the green does generally slope from right to left (especially on the back right quadrant), there are a few smaller contours around the center of the green that come into play.  For back pins, the green starts to softly fall away, creating putts that may play faster than you'd expect.  

Notes - The 16th hole is a throwback to the days when drives did not fly 250 plus in the air and the running approach was the norm.  Originally, the hole was meant to be attacked from further back than most players reach with their drives today, with the idea being that the second shot required a deft touch to roll a ball up the gigantic false front.  I've heard this green described as unfair by a coterie of members and guests, a sentiment I don't agree with as there are alternative methods of play that are often ignored by those recovering from the nightmares of seeing a shot take a u-turn on the false front.

Summary - Despite the blind drive, this hole is all about the approach.  If the course is playing extremely fast and firm, taking advantage of those conditions with a running approach may be more advantageous that trying to stop a lofted shot on the small top shelf.

Extra:  With its open fronts and spaces between the creek and the front of greens, the South Course is replete with opportunities to use the ground game.  Watching the women and senior members of the club apply their games to this course is an insight into how this course may have been played when built.  I've seen balls bounced over Butterfield Creek on the 2nd that have found the putting surface, hole outs on 7 that landed well short of the green and birdies on 16 from 180 yard approaches that rolled up the false front before holding on the left side.   Certain pins on other holes scream out for this style of shot, including front pins on 9 and 18, front right pins on 3, back right on 4 and anything on the right side of 13 to name just a few examples.  With the playable treed areas lurking off of many of the fairways, a low running punch is a shot that can be used to great effect to not only get back in play but possibly find the greens from even the toughest of angles.  Here at the 16th, some would say its the preferred play from even the middle of the fairway.

[Terry Lavin]

Great green, even if current green speeds render the front 60% as largely irrelevant because it's unpinnable. It will be interesting to see how the USGA handles this hole in the US Amateur.

[Paul OConnor]

15 – 430 Black/Blue same tee

This is probably the tightest drive on the course, narrowed even more from the back tees, and neither right nor left is better than the other.  I’ve started just hitting 3 wood off this tee, even though it leaves me close to 200 yards into the green.  The way the green sets up, a long low fade is a perfect shot, so cut hybrid or 4 iron play really well into this green.  Into a stiff north wind, the narrow corridor tends to funnel the air a bit, making it even stronger. I’ve hit plenty of three woods at this green into that wind. 

I’m not sure this is an original green, but it is more of a tiered affair than most of the rest. It reminds me a lot of the 9th, but a little less severe.  Front pins here really make the hole a lot easier.

Not one of my favorites, birdies are fairly rare for me here, and doubles far too frequent. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Hole 17 (Par 4) - 460/440/411

The Drive - Just off the back of the 16th green sit the tee boxes for 17, which turns left and to the north.  The hole plays downhill from left to right around a particularly nasty stand of trees that protect the ideal line to the green.  The curve of the fairway is such that it is possible to drive balls through the outer circumference, and drives out to the left that stay in the fairway may find their approach being blocked by a stand of mature trees that separate the 17th fairway from the area around the 10th green.  Often the play is a safe 3 wood out to corner of the curve, although it is possible to try to fade a driver a bit further down or take an aggressive line over the corner of the trees on the right.  Cutting the margin to fine, however, can lead to a big number if your ball starts to pinball around off the right side of the fairway.

The Approach - The average drive is going to leave an approach of 180 to 210 yards in.  Playing downhill with a small swale before the green, the play is to bounce a ball on to the surface and let the left to right contours feed it to the hole.  Since many players end up on the left, the front right of the green is a popular area as the raised corner of the green shrugs away many shots.  Beware of playing too strong a shot down the hill, anything over the built up rear of the green is a near impossible recovery.  The best miss is just short, as you'll be putting or chipping up the face of the 37 yard long green, and it is much easier to negotiate the slopes emanating off of both sides from this angle.

The Green - A wonderful version of the potato chip green, the green sweeps around the higher right side to a steep slope emanating off of its back edge.  There is a small swale about 2/3's of the way along the left side that serves to pull balls into its depths.  Pins placed near the center of the green may have two avenues of attack, as the valley like effect means that balls can be played off of the higher areas on either side.

Notes - The most common complaint for the 17th is that golfers think it is unfair to be in the fairway but be blocked out from the green.  I have little patience for this type of comment from all but the first timer, and as a member's club just about everyone should know that hugging the trees on the right is the play.  The 17th also has no bunkers, joining the 5th in a lesson of how you don't need sand to create difficulty.

Summary - A tough hole that demands two well struck shots to not only find the green but to stay out of trouble.  The green itself offers plenty of interest, with 3 putts being easy to come by if you get yourself out of position.  It will be interesting to see how players coming down the stretch of the stroke play portion of the US Am manage this hole.

I've copied below Jeff Goldman's summary of changes to the course from before Smyers' renovation.  Note that the 17th green is not original:

"The second green, which was a punchbowl and was redone in the late 1970s or early 1980s.  The third green, even before the Smyers work.  It was originally a completely blind par 3, and a new visible green was constructed in 1921 or so.  I have pictures of both.  The 5th hole was originally a 360 yard par 4, but was shortened to a 210 yard par-3 when the first 100 yards were sold off in 1946 with most of courses 2 and 3.  the green complex may not have been changed.   I think a new 7th green was built in the 1920s.  We have a picture which I believe shows a new green built in 1924 or so.  Smyers and Patrick disagree, and believe that the pic shows a huge, almost double-green with new bunkering.  8 and 9 were from course 2, which is generally credited as a Willie Watson design (but again there are competing views from various sources).  In any event, the 8th hole was made up of most of the 1st hole (tee and fairway) and the green site of  17, which was rebuilt by Oscar Miles during his tenure.  12 was changed from a 300 yard par 4 to a 200 yard par 3 by moving the green forward to the face of a hill in 1922 or so.  The historic picture I have posted of 14 has bunkering that looks like nothing on the rest of the course, and more like the work of Park than anything else, but we don't know.  Finally, the 17th green was rebuilt in the 1970s also."

[Paul OConnor]

17 – 460/440 Black/Blue

This is another hole where the Black tees are just a little too much.  Even for most of the big tournaments, the tee is usually at the 440 Blue box.  From there, most of the kids just hit hybrids to the left half of the fairway, and leave a 190-200 shot in.  It seems most of them are just trying to make par and get out.

This is such a great hole, the drive has to be on the left half of the fairway, and the further back you are the more left you need to be.  I find the left rough not too bad, with all the trees the grass is generally fairly manageable for a low running hybrid or even three wood up to the green.  The temptation to try to cut this dogleg generally wears off pretty quickly on this hole.  A drive into the trees right becomes a punch to safety and hopefully an up and down for par.  

I have many times found myself short of the dogleg, on the right side of the fairway, blocked by the trees from a straight line at the green.  If the ball is really tight to the right edge of the fairway, a shot I like to hit is a low hook 2 iron through the trees on the right side.  The hillside right of the fairway can kick the ball left and give you a chance to run the ball up onto the front of the green; when you can pull off this daring shot, it is quite impressive.  If you screw it up, hello double.  

From just a little left of this spot though, I have hit some great low cut fairway drivers under the overhanging branches of the right trees that then curl right missing the grove of oaks left, catch the down slope 30 yards short of the green, and run up onto the surface.  A very thrilling shot indeed, and tons of fun when it works.

I love this green, not just for the putting, but for the great variety of chips and pitches you can find all the way around the surface.  The pitches from right of the green require such a delicate touch to get close, I’ve hit little bump hybrids from that spot to a front pin. The flops from the rough left are also great fun.  Just a delightful green.  Early in the season, when the course is empty, I’ll just drop balls around this green and spend half an hour chipping and pitching, a blast for me.

Last year I had gone the entire year without making a birdie on this hole, and was lamenting this fact to an unsympathetic fellow golfer.   So in early December, I was out alone one pretty cold afternoon, the ground was frozen in the fairway, and with a somewhat freakish south wind, absolutely crunched a driver which ran out to the 150 sprinkler head, dead center of the fairway.  I pulled an 8 iron, hit it perfectly four feet right of a front right pin, it one hopped, kicked left, and then dropped into the cup for an eagle.  I called my buddy and told him I had still not birdied #17, but….  My go to line walking off this tee is now, “Did I ever tell you about the eagle I made here…”  

[Terry Lavin]

I love the hole, and the green is fun, but it would be neat to go back to the original design.  I understand where the committee was coming from with their plan to renovate the course but to leave the greens alone.  It might be nice now to go back and restore 2 and 17 to make them more consistent with the rest of the old timers.

[Paul OConnor]

I love the hole, and the green is fun, but it would be neat to go back to the original design.  I understand where the committee was coming from with their plan to renovate the course but to leave the greens alone.  It might be nice now to go back and restore 2 and 17 to make them more consistent with the rest of the old timers.

What was the original design on 17?  How differently did it make the hole play?  The new (old) green would have to be awfully compelling to justify messing with this green. 

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