[Paul OConnor]

"...what happened to that pull hook you hit on 6?"

That's my 3 wood.  I hit the driver into the flowers right.

[Sven Nilsen]

As I told Ian, "left is fine," but we're jumping ahead a bit.

[J_ Crisham]

Sven,
You shouldn't argue with Jack.  He is a golf couse rater and knows this kind of stuff.  I happen to agree with him too.

I'm sure he will provide details and clarity on his statements.  

14 North is in an altogether different league than 9 South.  Here are a couple reasons why that is so.

1. I have never had to tee off 14 North with a dog barking at me from 10 feet away, 9 South - barking dog.

2. I have never had to hit my second shot on 14 North from a flower garden in front of someone's cottage, 9 South - flower garden

3. On the green of 14 North I have never been disturbed by a UPS truck driving 20 feet away from the green to make a delivery, 9 South - UPS delivery truck

Sven, if Olympia Fields only had the South Course, it would have closed 30 years ago.  The North pays the bills at OFCC.  

Sven,   Everything Paul said is accurate- North is the course people will hop on a plane to play. South, while I agree with Terry is top 10 in Chicago, isn't in the same league. The back nine at OFCC North is incredible- if it was in Philly or NYC they would call it Winged Foot- its that good. As far as #14 over #3 On the North, it's very close:  What separates them? The blind tee shot on #3 vs #14 tee shot - one of the most breathtaking tee shots in Chicago. Green complexes on both are terrific. The use of the creek on  14 to tighten the landing area both on the right and deep , the bunker placements, and the forest of oaks on the left-which sometimes allows a recovery,no street noise from Vollmer Rd. It's world class IMO. The front nine has some very good holes but the back has not a single weak one. Quite frankly, the property on the back nine of OFCC North is the best, ie most dramatic, piece of property  inside the fences. I can't think of any holes at Bev or Shoreacres , Butler CGC, Medinah , FCC, that come to mind. But again just my opinion.    

[Sven Nilsen]

Jack:

Not sure if I want to get into a discussion as to what motivates belt-notching, so I'll just say I hope a few of those plane hoppers will take the time to play 36.  

Once the tour has wrapped up we can continue the conversation, and I hope we'll delve a little further into the substance of the courses, with a compare and contrast of the strengths and weaknesses of each.  That was the gist of the list of questions I presented in my response to you earlier.  There's a reason why several of the early posters in this thread noted their preference for the South over the North, and its not just because its an easier course.

Sven

 

[Terry Lavin]

I used to insist that those who insisted in playing the Open course stay for the Heineken and carts nine in the South. Most preferred it.

[C. Squier]

I really wish North had a short par 4 as good as 6S. Or 11S for that matter. But then again, most courses could say that....they are excellent holes.

[Paul OConnor]

Allright, enough of this...here is #7.

#7 – Black and Blue tees same at 566 yards. 

This par 5 leaves from the back of the same ridge as the 6th green, and continues north back towards the clubhouse.  In the summer the wind is usually from the south, so this is a good place to really get the tee ball nice and high with the wind pushing from behind.   There are two separate stands of oaks on either side of the fairway about 300 yards off the tee, so keeping the ball in the middle of the fairway helps in avoiding these obstructions.  From a line drawn between these two stands of oaks, the fairway rises sharply, presenting a blind shot up toward the green.   I prefer the left half of the fairway as it leads to a more open second shot up and over the hill. 

This is one of two places on the property that if I’m in the fairway I will automatically grab the driver.  The hole goes straight up over the hill and then ends a little to the right towards the green.  Hitting a hard cut driver off the slight incline of this fairway over the hill, up the left side of the fairway spinning right usually leaves some sort of wedge into the green.  The other place I like too hit this shot is on 15 North.  With the driver off the fairway, I rarely hook the ball, so this shot takes the pull hook 3 wood into the left trees out of play.  There is a ton of room right too, so a slight over-cook still plays pretty well. 

I have found myself many times on the right side off the tee confronted with a wall of 60 foot high oaks blocking the direct path down the hole.  Luckily I can hit a high cut hybrid out of the rough which usually gets the ball back to safety up on top of the hill on the left side of the fairway.  Getting stuck in the left rough behind the other stand of oaks requires a low hook around the trees and then up the hill, if the lie isn’t too bad.   It is also a good place to hit a tree and kick backwards beginning the sad spiral to a disgusting double on this fairly easy hole.

Just short of the green is a huge swale that makes getting to this green in two difficult, even with the wind and firm turf.  It’s also a good reason to lay back to about 100 yards or so for the approach, as the chips from this swale are pretty tricky, especially on the downhill side.  So if you haven’t screwed up too much you should have some kind of iron or wedge in your hand for the approach.  This green is HUGE, and has a big left to right flow, including a nice spine on about the left third of the green.  The whole left side of the green kicks balls right, so the play is often into the left bank for the kick to a center or left pin.  Unfortunately, if the approach gets just a little too far left, and hangs up on the left fringe or kicks left, well, good luck over there my friend.  Short and right are a couple bunkers, which are better resting places than the oak tree nightmare that waits if you get right of the bunkers.  Right and short of this green might be one of the worst spots on the whole course.

For a pin on the right half of the green, I used to try working the ball in from left to right off the green, buy more so recently I’ll just go right at the flag or even right of it.  Tough to get real close, but the putt is then generally uphill and of the reasonably simple variety.   Long is dead.  There are some great putts on this green.  If the pin is front and your ball is at the back of the green, I bet that putt breaks 15 feet right to left, it’s practically going straight left at the end, and is plenty fast. 

This hole can be lots of fun, mostly because it is not that hard, and the green has so much character.  Usually, I will have to relight my cigar right around here somewhere. 

[Terry Lavin]

Great three shot hole with classic parkland character. The green has big left to right tilt which allows for some fun rolling sideways pitch shots. There are many indecipherable putts on this green that frustrate the possibility of a birdie.

Now we move to the 8th tee, which requires walking by the tenth tee 7 used to be the 9th hole on the original layout), then past the halfway house, by the 18th green and over to the cobbled-together 8th hole.

[Scott Wintersteen]

#7 -  I would add a little more about the green on 7, I think its one of toughest greens on the front 9 of the South and placement of your 3rd shot is critical.  A popular pin location on the green is front right, which brings the right greenside bunker into play.  The green has a massive slope and if you are at the back of the green putting downhill to the front, GOOD LUCK!  It will be a putt that will be extremely quick and have a lot of movement.  It is a very easy 3 putt.  

[Sven Nilsen]

Hole 7 (Par 5) - 566/566/540

The Drive - The tee shot on the 7th is akin to kicking a field goal, but since the 4th was the last time you hit driver, its no chip shot.  If you keep the ball between the oaks on either side of the 50 or so yard sward, you'll be in good shape.  The tee shot does play downhill, so any sideways motion gets accentuated by the fall off.  If you bomb one, you might just have it run up the first part of the massive uphill, especially if the hole is playing downwind.  As Paul noted, being on the left side does offer a slightly better angle, but recovers from short of the trees on the left can be a bit tougher than the same area on the right.  On either side, a punch through the trees can get the player up over the top of the hill leaving 150 or so in.  From the right, it is also possible to play an iron up and over the tree line back to the fairway, an option generally not available from the left.

The Layup/Approach - Whether you're going for it or laying up, the next shot is going to be blind, so hopefully you took a peak at the 7th green from the 1st hole to find out where the day's pin is located.  As noted, the fairway rolls over the top of the hill before descending into a swale some 40 or so yards short of the front of the green.  From there it rises back up to the green surface, with a series of bunkers wrapping from the front right back along that side.  For the bomber, there's a gap in the tree that runs down the left side of the fairway that provides a good guide for the entrance to the green.  Its a hit and hope type of shot, with the result often being revealed once you've climbed to the apex of the hill.  If you're laying up, the play is still out to the left (there's a purple tree set in the treeline on the left as a guide) as the fairway tends to pull balls back to the right, and short-siding yourself behind the right greenside bunkers is not a fun place to be.  The green itself starts at the front left at the base of a small hill which can be used to guide balls on to the putting surface.  If the pin is on the left, its better to play well short and left of the hole and to use the contours.  If the pin is on the right, a more direct line is workable.  Beware of an approach to a back right pin, as the green doesn't hold as well as you might think in that area, with the result being a shot from below the green surface to a pin on a downhill slope.  The other miss to avoid is past the hill on the left, as the entire green works away from the player from that side.

The Green - 38 yards deep and pretty close to that number in width, the green starts by running away from the player on the front left corner.  Being above or to the right of a pin in this location makes for a very difficult putt from both pace and line perspectives.  Further up that side the surface rises away from the player, with the left to right slope influenced by the hillside left still in play.  This slope feeds off the entire left side past the midline of the green before turning into a bit of a swale that runs up the right side.  Putts up the line on the right will contain much less break than on the left.  One of the indecipherable putts mentioned by Terry is to a back left pin, where the eye will read a left to right break, but the ball may actually appear to peal off uphill towards the back of the green.  

Notes - The 7th is one of the holes that doesn't have a fairway bunker (a theme started at the 2nd that will be repeated over the next 3 holes), and it doesn't need it.  The use of the tree line and the elevation provide plenty of interest.  Its also one of several holes with blind shots, a bit of quirk that seems to be losing favor these days.

Summary - With a good drive the hole is reachable, making 3 a possibility.  In reality, its more of a birdie hole, yet those close in 3 often leave disappointed after being beguiled by the breaks on the green.  A favorite hole for a good friend of mine, whose mantra for the second shot is to "just blast it up towards the green."  Even with the blindness over the hill, you generally know if you've hit a good one or not, leading to several Sergio moments as players try to run up to catch a glimpse of their ball rolling on to the putting surface (note, the hill is too long, and they never reach the top in time).

[Sven Nilsen]

One further note on the 7th.  Prior to the recent renovation, there was a bunker short of the green on the left side that eliminated the ability to roll or bounce a ball on from that side.  I have no idea if the bunker was original, or if it was added over the years.  I can only surmise that the hole is much better now in its absence.

[Terry Lavin]

That was a stupid bunker, surely added by a well meaning committee.

[C. Squier]

That was a stupid bunker, surely added by a well meaning committee.

Going by aerials, it was added sometime between 1988 and 1998.

[Terry Lavin]

The bounce, feed and funnel shot is a bunch of fun if executed properly.

[Sven Nilsen]

Going to forego the legal jargon jokes and just put this out there:

"Probably the most impressive work came on a number of admittedly vanilla holes.  The third was a banal one-shot over a creek that only came into play on a horribly missed shot.  When one stood on that tee, there was a small tree-lined hillside to the left.  Smyers opened it up and created an uphill hole that looks like it has been there forever."

-Someone who posted in this thread, 7/10/08

[Sven Nilsen]

8th Hole (Par 4) - 409/409/390

Any discussion of the South Course needs to give a bit of background regarding the 8th and 9th holes.  When the club sold off a portion of its land, the two holes that were lost on what was known as the #1 Course were replaced by two holes borrowed from the soon to be NLE #2 Course.  The 9th hole, to be discussed later, was incorporated with no changes needed.  The 8th, however, borrowed portions of two different holes, and utilized a green that once belonged to a hole that played to it from the complete opposite direction (and on that hole must have presented a fairly severe challenge as it would have sloped from front to back, assuming no changes in configuration).  

The result is that the 8th and 9th holes lie more than a full fairway's breadth away from the 7th hole.  Instead of heading directly from the 7th green to the now 10th tee boxes, the golfer must walk past those tees, the halfway house and the 18th green, and the reverse trip is made after holing out on 9.  The two stops at the halfway house may offer a degree of convenience to some.

The Drive - Through a chute of trees, the golfer's view from the tee will be of a strip of fairway running into the creek which crosses the fairway around 260 yards out.  On the other side of the creek the fairway turns slightly to the left and rises up to a green perched next to a solitary greenside bunker.  There are players that pull driver every time and try to drive it over the creek, but the play for the masses is a lay up short of the creek.  For some, that is still a driver, while for others its a 3-wood or hybrid.  A particularly troublesome tree sits just off the left corner of the fairway on the near side of the creek, and can present problems for any shot pulled into the rough on that side.  Way right is no good either, as the creek curls back towards the tee on that side.  The best angle into the green is from the front left corner of the fairway, but beware of the overhanging branches creeping into your view.  There is a bit of a premium on getting as close to the creek as possible, as each extra ten yards on the approach seems to have a greater multiple of an effect on difficulty.

The Approach - From the tee side of the creek, the golfer will have a shot in the 150 to 200 yard range, up the hill and into the prevailing breeze.  The open front to the green allows for a running shot, although the contours short of the green may shrug balls off towards the right front bunker.  It is possible to fly it on to the surface and hold the green, but getting close to a front pin may be a problem.  The miss on this green is just off the front edge or just to the left (which sometimes feeds balls back to the surface), and runners with too much juice will find a tough up and down from the back of the green.  There's a stand of trees to the left between the upper fairway on the 8th and the lower tee boxes on the 9th, which is not a place you want to be.  Conversely, misses to the right may require a recovery shot over the bunker, which is a very difficult shot if the pin is on the right.  For those that flew the creek on the fly, a wedge in only needs to account for how much the uphill comes into play.

The Green -  It is hard to imagine that this green was once played from the opposite direction, as the back to front slope makes for fairly tough putts back towards the current front edge.  The green is very subtle in nature, and the slopes of the surrounding areas can have an effect on how you read its surface.  A slightly higher portion in the back left corner make for pin positions that are tough to get close to from the fairway and tough to get a putt back to from short on the green.

Notes - As mentioned by Terry and as described above, the hole was "cobbled" together.  One wonders how it would play if the green were sited in the lower area to the right of and beyond the greenside bunker, which would appear to make for a great punchbowl like setting.  

Summary - Its not the most exciting hole on the course, and it may take the driver out of most players' hands, but it remains a good test that requires two well struck on-line shots to get home.  The hole also looks longer than it actually is from the tees, so there's a bit of an intimidation factor that comes into play.

[Sven Nilsen]

9th Hole (Par 4) - 440/440/400

The Drive - The front and back tees on the 9th are divided by a grass covered hillside with a set of stairs serving as the passage between.  From the higher perch, the player has a view to a fairway lying approximately 200 yards away on the other side of Butterfield Creek (the carry being 40 yards shorter from the lower tees).  On its left side, the creek turns at a 90 degree angles away from the golfer, before turning back to left to traverse the 8th hole.  At the first turn, a large tree seemingly stands as a sentry guarding the left side.  Trees line both sides of the fairway, with the heavier coverage on the right partially obscuring a series of "cottages" owned by various members.  The first portion of the very wide fairway angles from the right towards the direct line to the green, before gaining its course over the last 180 or so yards.  The play is out to the left to open up the angle of attack to the green.  Anything that flirts with the trees on the right is going to have to deal with some overhanging branches.  Whether you draw a ball back to the midline or play a drive over the tree at the left corner, do whatever you can to avoid going right.

The Approach - From the fairway, your view of the green is going to be obscured by an upslope that starts around 100 yards short of the green.  From the top of the upslope, the fairway runs away from the golfer for about 45 yards before rising again at the front of the green.  With the knowledge of pin location gleaned from standing on the 8th tee, you'll have to judge exactly what type of shot is going to work best to get close to the image of the pin in your mind.  As most approach shots are going to be in the 150-200 yard range, it is possible to fly the ball to the green surface or play a runner over the top of the hill that will run down and then up onto the green surface.  For front pins on the three tiered green, being just short of the green is not a bad place to be, often requiring an approach well short of the actual yardage.  If you're far enough back in the fairway, you might be able to make out the top of the flag.  If not, a tree behind the green marks its middle, and can be used as an aiming guide (generally the play is slightly left of where you thing the pin is located, as the general slope of the green is from back left to front right).  If you've found the trees on either side, the lay up is normally to the base of the hill.  This leaves a completely blind approach, but with a much shorter club in hand.  An offline approach is most likely going to find the flanking greenside bunkers, which sit below the putting surface (yet outside of the width of the green).  Anything long will be held up by the mounds and general upslope of the rough behind the green.

The Green - My favorite green on the property, the 9th measures 35 yards in depth and has the most distinctive internal contours of any green on the South Course.  Two ridges run off the left edge at around 18 and 28 yards deep, creating the three distinct tiers mentioned above.  Any putt from one tier to another will have to be well judged in both line and speed, with putts from the back tier to the front being nearly impossible to stop near the hole.  While the front portion is canted from back to front off of the first ridge line, the middle and back portions have slight bowled effects, making for interesting breaks when played near or along the back portion of the two ridges.  Adding to the conundrum, the soft left to right break of the green comes into play, especially on putts to a front left pin.  No number of words or pictures could do this green justice, as its beauty is found in the way it plays.

Notes - Like a few other holes on the property, a miss off the tee to the right spells trouble.  Assuming you haven't found a cottager's flower bed, a punch back to the fairway will keep par alive.  (As an aside, these are the types of cottages that make you wonder what the owners' first homes look like.)  The 9th does sit on a fairly busy area of the club, with the nearby pool and traffic to and from the practice range and the cottages offering some distraction.  However, UPS only delivers once a day, so its the rare occasion that any distraction rises to the level of an interruption.

Summary - Perhaps this hole doesn't offer the natural beauty of its cousins on the North Course, but the general playing characteristics match up well with how the 3rd and 14th holes are negotiated.  Looking past any superficial advantages of the settings, the 9th may be the stronger hole when measuring the demands of each shot from tee to green.

[Paul OConnor]

These two holes used to be the 1st and 18th of the #2 course, dismantled sometime in the 1930’s.  The old 1st hole, the current 8th, used to be a 290 yard par four with the green just over the creek, tucked left over where the bridge on 9 comes back over the creek.  If you look closely you can see the outlines of the old green site.  Kind of a cool little hole I bet.

There isn’t a sizable tree anywhere near the 8th green, and being up high it gets plenty of wind movement across it.  Not surprisingly then, this green has the best grass on the entire property.  It’s just perfect.  Not all that much going on with this green, back to front and left to right break, with very little going on in the way of internal contouring.

I’m not a huge fan of this hole, it seems awkward in so many little ways.  The disjointed nature of 8 and 9, sort of away on their own, some awkward sight lines and generally lack of flow on this hole make for really the most disappointing hole so far. 

Plus that damn dog is just waiting for you over behind the fence at the 9th tee, waiting to aggravate you on what up till now has been a reasonably serene walk in the park. 

[Paul OConnor]

9 – 445 Black/Blue same tee.

OK, so there is this dog…

So, this should be a pretty good hole.  445 yards long, creek to cross on the drive, blind uphill approach, three tiered green, plenty of oaks left and right, bunkers both sides of the green, chocolate drop mounding on the back of the green.   Plus in the summer the green comes right up to the pool so you can catch an occasional glimpse of young tanned mothers sunbathing and swimming with their kids.  Which is nice.

I almost always play from the tees up on the hill, which is a pretty tough drive.  As you say, you’ve got to keep it left here, which leads plenty of times to missing it right, and a near certain bogey.  The big tree right by the bridge does define the hole to a large extent, but with a strong west wind, getting the tee ball to the left half of the fairway is pretty tough.  And hitting that tree and dunking the ball into the creek, which I’ve done way too many times, generally leads to a quick double bogey. 

I think this would be a better hole if that tree were removed, the bridge was way over on the right side, and the fairway was straightened out.  I think it would bring the creek more into play and make the drive a little more dangerous, but more fair.  Not my favorite driving hole.

The blind approach up and over the hill is pretty good, I wish that the front of the green played a little firmer, as a lot of shots like to land just short of the green and stick.   And Sven, I cannot agree that this is the best green on the course, it’s pretty good, but I think the second tier is too small.  I’d give 5, or 17 best greens on South.

There are apparently some plans drawn up by Smyers and Co that reverse the directions of these two holes.  Either the plans were rejected or the project ran out of money, but the plan was to put the 8th tee behind the 9th green, and play backwards on the current 9 to a green where the 8th green is now.  And then the new 9 would play backwards on 8 to a green up by the clubhouse.  You could then put a couple tees way back in that unused corner and add 60-70 yards to the hole.  Never seen the drawings myself, but this is apparently the idea.  I think these might be two better holes than the current duo.

[Scott Wintersteen]

#8 - A thing that I think needs to be pointed out about hole 8 is that the yardage is deceiving.  The hole actually plays a lot longer than the yardage for a couple of reasons.  The first is the creek.  For most players they are in between a driver and a 3 wood on the hole.  The big hitters can hit driver and try and go over the creek but more often than not people will hit 3 wood.  I think the best shot to play is a small fade with your drive; that way you are on the righthand side of the fairway or righthand rough and you will have the best angle going to the green (and not have to worry about the trees on the lefthand side for your approach shot). The second is the approach shot is uphill to an elevated green.  I think the elevation change is at least a one to two club difference.  I always find myself hitting a hybrid or a 3 wood into this green.  The two factors i mentioned above make this hole play longer than the yardage would indicate.    

I think this hole is probably the weakest hole on the front 9 of the South but still a very good golf hole on its own.  I think it speaks more to the strength of the front 9 South.    

[Scott Wintersteen]

There are apparently some plans drawn up by Smyers and Co that reverse the directions of these two holes.  Either the plans were rejected or the project ran out of money, but the plan was to put the 8th tee behind the 9th green, and play backwards on the current 9 to a green where the 8th green is now.  And then the new 9 would play backwards on 8 to a green up by the clubhouse.  You could then put a couple tees way back in that unused corner and add 60-70 yards to the hole.  Never seen the drawings myself, but this is apparently the idea.  I think these might be two better holes than the current duo.

This is intersting because I have always wondered why there is so much room to the right side of the hole once you cross the creek on #8, guess this might have been a reason.

[Sven Nilsen]

Scott:

The room between 8 and 18 is a result of how the 8th hole was configured back when it was added to the South Course in 1945.  If you take a look at this 1939 aerial (borrowed from Dan Moore), you can make out the old fairway of Hole No. 1 and the current green of Hole No. 17 of what was then Course No. 2



I know there's been discussion in the past to use holes 8 and 9 in a different spot in the routing, possibly as the first two holes to be played before going to Hole No. 1 as the 3rd.  

[Andrew Buck]

While starting on 8 and 9 before proceeding to #1 would improve the overall traffic flow, I just don't think 8 would make a good opening hole (which is probably why the change has never been implemented).  

Where were the two holes that were lost from the original design?  I assume they were between the back corner and Lincoln Hwy?  

[Sven Nilsen]

Andrew:

They sat to the South of the 4th and 5th holes.

Sven

[Scott Wintersteen]

Scott:

The room between 8 and 18 is a result of how the 8th hole was configured back when it was added to the South Course in 1945.  If you take a look at this 1939 aerial (borrowed from Dan Moore), you can make out the old fairway of Hole No. 1 and the current green of Hole No. 17 of what was then Course No. 2


I know there's been discussion in the past to use holes 8 and 9 in a different spot in the routing, possibly as the first two holes to be played before going to Hole No. 1 as the 3rd.  

Sven,

Thanks for clearing this up

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