Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)

[Jason Thurman]

I guess I see it a little differently, Chip, although I agree with a lot of what you say.

We don't try to make a profit, so your idea that members should pay for their use of the club and money in should equal money out is one that I agree with, and also one that I think the club would agree with.

However, we do charge market rate for carts at about $20 a round. I doubt we make a huge profit off them once you figure in our lease agreement and wear and tear to the course, but we do make a little. If we simply wanted each component of our club to pay for itself, we could probably charge a little less for carts.

However, doing so would also compromise a bit of our walking culture. As I mentioned, we have the number two Evans' Scholar program in the state of Ohio. That's a really impressive fact when you consider that our initiation fees and dues are among the lowest in the state. Part of the reason is that a good caddie is only about $30-$35 after tip at our club. There's a cost difference between the caddie and the cart, but not a huge one. It's one that guys like me will happily justify if it means we get to walk the course.

If we cut cart costs down to a break-even point at, say, $12 (a number which I made up off the top of my head), then I suspect a lot of guys wouldn't be able to justify the cost difference anymore, including me. Our caddie program would die. And while I don't need caddies, I do still appreciate the role they play in making our club one that really supports walking golf. A lot of our older members simply can't walk and carry, and a lot of our younger members don't believe they can either.

It's just extremely reductionist to think that each portion of the club and each amenity offered should run at a net zero cost. There are facets of every club that will never be able to pay for themselves on an accounting sheet but that contribute valuably to the club culture and are a part of why members join and stay. Then there are other facets, like carts, that can be priced reasonably and still make a small profit that subsidizes some of those facets that will always run in the red. It's just silly to pretend that certain streams of revenue don't exist, especially when they're as reliable as cart fees.

Grant, what do you consider a fair maintenance budget for a bentgrass course in the Ohio valley? Keep in mind that I'm including our maintenance equipment and repairs, chemical applications, water budget, fuel budget, tree removal costs, aerification, bunker maintenance and repair, and other costs defined by my club as part of the maintenance budget. I believe that number also includes the cost of paying our grounds crew, though I'd have to check with our bookkeeper to make sure. I can guarantee that we're as economical as any club near our city considering our circumstances. I do wish that we had a lower input fairway grass, and hope someday we'll be able to afford one, but bentgrass is just a nightmare to maintain disease free in this environment.

[Grant Saunders]

Grant, what do you consider a fair maintenance budget for a bentgrass course in the Ohio valley? Keep in mind that I'm including our maintenance equipment and repairs, chemical applications, water budget, fuel budget, tree removal costs, aerification, bunker maintenance and repair, and other costs defined by my club as part of the maintenance budget. I believe that number also includes the cost of paying our grounds crew, though I'd have to check with our bookkeeper to make sure. I can guarantee that we're as economical as any club near our city considering our circumstances. I do wish that we had a lower input fairway grass, and hope someday we'll be able to afford one, but bentgrass is just a nightmare to maintain disease free in this environment.

Jason

I haven't seen your course so there is no way to I could give you a number as an answer.

Your post referenced other courses spending more than you and geographic factors as justification for your spending. To me, that's a bit of a cop out and you need to be focused only on your own site and where the money is utilised. Using the arguement of spending less than someone else as a way to vilify decisions is false logic.

I'll give you an example:

Say Club A down the road buys a new spray rig for $50000. Club B also in need of a new spray rig, buys one for $40000 and feel good about themselves because they spent $10000 less than Club A. Club C however found an option which although may not have all the whistles and bells is fully functional for their needs and cost them $25000. Both Club A and B could have purchased the same unit as C.

Golf courses are far to individual to start comparing them in terms of operating costs (course maintenance anyhow) to courses that may even be just a few miles up the road. Its an easy trap to fall into and a dangerous one too.

The notion of low input grasses is something I find misconstrued a lot by people. Grass is grass and has been happily existing for centuries doing its own thing. It is the surface that is high or low input depending on the requirements. There are certainly situations where the choice of grass will impact the level of input and it is probably this area where most courses have shot themselves in the foot.

[BCowan]

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[BHoover]

Which course in the USA, and the Midwest in particular, has been or can be maintained "impeccably" for less than $300K? I'm not a super, but I just don't see how it would be possible, at least not if we are talking about the conditions of a private or upscale public course.

[ChipRoyce]

If we cut cart costs down to a break-even point at, say, $12 (a number which I made up off the top of my head), then I suspect a lot of guys wouldn't be able to justify the cost difference anymore, including me. Our caddie program would die. And while I don't need caddies, I do still appreciate the role they play in making our club one that really supports walking golf. A lot of our older members simply can't walk and carry, and a lot of our younger members don't believe they can either.

Jason,

That's interesting. Does a super-majority of the club believe that the caddie program is integral to the club's success?

Caveat: I would agree that if a club feels that an amenity like the Shoe Shine guy (doesn't pay for itself but something that's core / part of the brand) is integral, then the club as a whole should subsidize it.

In your example, and just being scientific here, if the membership truly valued the caddie program, the cost of the carts should be immaterial to the utilization of the caddie program. There would be a range of price that you'd see little change in the # of rounds using cart each year. Obviously, taking it to extremes, if a cart cost >$100, then you'd either see a switch to caddies or folks would depart the club as they'd require a cart but couldn't afford it. And a free cart (included in dues) would demonstrate the extreme of demand as folks wouldn't think twice about utilizing.

A follow-up question: Is carrying your bag allowed when caddies are available / prime time?

[BCowan]

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[Steve Lang]

 have read this whole thread… its definitely getting cold up north…  

I have to say in 52 years the worst cart damage in field of play I've typically seen is when one or two buggies go off on too wet ground.. normally see it once or twice on a course as I suspect its pretty much self-policing with two in a cart and later groups seeing the damage if they were thinking about going bad;  i get much more upset seeing maintenance equipment tearing up ground from wet ground mowing or working too quickly in the dim morning?

so viva le lugger, one or two strap, the 7 club bag (my favorite) , the trolley and the cart…  I can't believe trolleys being ugly has any real standing…  hang around enough and you'll do it all.

If courses can't sustain their operations in an efficient manner, the market will correct that, like at many CCFAD's…
 

Ben you have Stamina for sure, now do tell walk-ride status at the 5 T-town privates.  I believe they are still:

Inverness (aren't finances from spending for Sr. Open ?) i walked there 45 years ago, don't remember many but there were carts
Highland Meadows (certainly made money from Jamie Farr LPGA event over the years)
Sylvania
TCC
Tamaron (Old Sunningdale) ? or semi-private
Heather Downs ? or semi-private

you know each was very exclusive economically and along religious lines, though those issues hit hard with economic reality last century...

Valleywood (? still semi-private)

regards

ps I'd take Bill McBride up on his invite to PCC… great walk there, and he's the consummate host and great guy

[Steve Lang]

  David, not sure Melvyn could name drop toledo and ann arbor together

[Tim Martin]

Has Melvyn resurfaced but now with a serious addiction to Red Bull?

  -Less than 60 posts and each one a social commentary.

[BCowan]

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[Bradley Anderson]

In the past I believe I have taken the position that the cost of buggies outweighed the benefits but I am now of the opinion that it varies from club to club. There are very few golf courses that are so great that people will stand in line for the opportunity to play there on foot.

- Our cart paths are blacktop around the greens and tees and gravel tee to green. Assuming the asphalt lasts around 15 years the asset reserve funding should run us around $10,000 a year.
- The lease on 72 carts is around $30,000 a year
- We pay around $10,000 a year in keeping the carts cleaned.
- We do not store the carts in a barn.
- We spend approximately $8,000 in fuel.

We could round it up to $60,000 a year to run carts. The cart fee revenue is at $300,000 a year. We can only guess how much business we would loose if we forced everyone to walk but it could amount to a loss of over half of our annual rounds.

Obviously in our case carts make good sense.

[ChipRoyce]

In the past I believe I have taken the position that the cost of buggies outweighed the benefits but I am now of the opinion that it varies from club to club. There are very few golf courses that are so great that people will stand in line for the opportunity to play there on foot.

- Our cart paths are blacktop around the greens and tees and gravel tee to green. Assuming the asphalt lasts around 15 years the asset reserve funding should run us around $10,000 a year.
- The lease on 72 carts is around $30,000 a year
- We pay around $10,000 a year in keeping the carts cleaned.
- We do not store the carts in a barn.
- We spend approximately $8,000 in fuel.

We could round it up to $60,000 a year to run carts. The cart fee revenue is at $300,000 a year. We can only guess how much business we would loose if we forced everyone to walk but it could amount to a loss of over half of our annual rounds.

Obviously in our case carts make good sense.

Bradley;
A few questions - is your course private or public? From your points above it seems that since you use gas powered carts, the terrain has a fair bit of movement? (suggests that carts are required BY a certain % of golfers just to get around)

[Jason Thurman]

David, that aligns with what I've seen, and you and I are in the same part of the world. We've had water bills above $36,000 in hot months, although those are outliers with several factors combining to create such a high number. $15-20k is probably more reasonable, but I'd have to check. We spray chemicals every two weeks at $6000 to keep fungal outbreaks and things like that away (I'd think closer to $120,000 for chemical costs, though that's just an uneducated ballpark guess). We should do it more often, but we go every two weeks for budgetary reasons. This year it bit us in the ass when we had a pythium outbreak that took down a few acres of rough, but fortunately negligible fairway and no tees or greens.

I've not served on the greens committee all that long. The thing that has shocked me early in my tenure is just how expensive equipment is. We lost a rough mower last week, and a new replacement would be $70,000. We won't spend anywhere near that much as we'll find a used one for closer to $15k, but the point remains that equipment cost and upkeep is much higher than the average golfer might expect.

[Jason Thurman]

Grant, what do you consider a fair maintenance budget for a bentgrass course in the Ohio valley? Keep in mind that I'm including our maintenance equipment and repairs, chemical applications, water budget, fuel budget, tree removal costs, aerification, bunker maintenance and repair, and other costs defined by my club as part of the maintenance budget. I believe that number also includes the cost of paying our grounds crew, though I'd have to check with our bookkeeper to make sure. I can guarantee that we're as economical as any club near our city considering our circumstances. I do wish that we had a lower input fairway grass, and hope someday we'll be able to afford one, but bentgrass is just a nightmare to maintain disease free in this environment.

Jason

I haven't seen your course so there is no way to I could give you a number as an answer.

Your post referenced other courses spending more than you and geographic factors as justification for your spending. To me, that's a bit of a cop out and you need to be focused only on your own site and where the money is utilised. Using the arguement of spending less than someone else as a way to vilify decisions is false logic.

We never use that argument to make a decision. We don't look at what other clubs spend in our greens committee or board meetings when we set budgets. We'll occasionally pull up the numbers that other clubs spend at an annual meeting just to put our spending into context though. The membership tends to freak out a bit when you say "We spent $650k on maintenance this year." But if we can pull up other clubs around town and show that our budget was $300k lower than anyone else and half of some clubs, it keeps ignorant people from suggesting things like "Cut the superintendent's salary!" without understanding any of the big picture. Those of us who toil in our committee and board meetings, though, simply try to set a firm budget and then allocate spending within that budget very tightly.

I gave two real world examples of this in my previous post. We spray every two weeks, which should keep us safe but isn't quite often enough to guarantee it. Occasionally we have a year like 2013 where we end up losing some turf, and we just have to deal with it until we can increase our chemical budget. We also buy used equipment and try to find value. Instead of a $70k rough unit, we'll buy one for about $15k. But there's a downside there, because we need to find one with relatively low hours and even then it might only last half as long as the brand new one would have, so we'll face this expense again twice as quickly. We're always trying to walk a fine line, which is what a good budget should force you to do. The hard part is that we sometimes lack the metrics we'd like to help support those decisions. A lot of it ends up being feel when you're asking questions like "Is a unit with 500 fewer hours worth an extra $5k?"

I guess I define a "cop out" as suggesting a club you have no familiarity with is spending too much, and then being unable to say how much they should be spending.   I forget what your company does. Does your data help clubs make those "feel" decisions a little less feel-based?

[Steve Lang]

Ben,

I don't see any connection to the Stranahan family for Belmont, let alone RA who was into his 80's then???

http://thebelmontcountryclub.com/history/


we trust but verify

[Jon Wiggett]

In the past I believe I have taken the position that the cost of buggies outweighed the benefits but I am now of the opinion that it varies from club to club. There are very few golf courses that are so great that people will stand in line for the opportunity to play there on foot.

- Our cart paths are blacktop around the greens and tees and gravel tee to green. Assuming the asphalt lasts around 15 years the asset reserve funding should run us around $10,000 a year.
- The lease on 72 carts is around $30,000 a year
- We pay around $10,000 a year in keeping the carts cleaned.
- We do not store the carts in a barn.
- We spend approximately $8,000 in fuel.

We could round it up to $60,000 a year to run carts. The cart fee revenue is at $300,000 a year. We can only guess how much business we would loose if we forced everyone to walk but it could amount to a loss of over half of our annual rounds.

Obviously in our case carts make good sense.

Bradley,

it seems a clear cut case at your place. Big saving not needing to have them under cover for either security or weather reasons. Am I correct in deducing that the carts cost less than $1 in fuel for 18 holes or is your charge more than $30 for the round?

Jon

[Grant Saunders]

Grant, what do you consider a fair maintenance budget for a bentgrass course in the Ohio valley? Keep in mind that I'm including our maintenance equipment and repairs, chemical applications, water budget, fuel budget, tree removal costs, aerification, bunker maintenance and repair, and other costs defined by my club as part of the maintenance budget. I believe that number also includes the cost of paying our grounds crew, though I'd have to check with our bookkeeper to make sure. I can guarantee that we're as economical as any club near our city considering our circumstances. I do wish that we had a lower input fairway grass, and hope someday we'll be able to afford one, but bentgrass is just a nightmare to maintain disease free in this environment.

Jason

I haven't seen your course so there is no way to I could give you a number as an answer.

Your post referenced other courses spending more than you and geographic factors as justification for your spending. To me, that's a bit of a cop out and you need to be focused only on your own site and where the money is utilised. Using the arguement of spending less than someone else as a way to vilify decisions is false logic.

We never use that argument to make a decision. We don't look at what other clubs spend in our greens committee or board meetings when we set budgets. We'll occasionally pull up the numbers that other clubs spend at an annual meeting just to put our spending into context though. The membership tends to freak out a bit when you say "We spent $650k on maintenance this year." But if we can pull up other clubs around town and show that our budget was $300k lower than anyone else and half of some clubs, it keeps ignorant people from suggesting things like "Cut the superintendent's salary!" without understanding any of the big picture. Those of us who toil in our committee and board meetings, though, simply try to set a firm budget and then allocate spending within that budget very tightly.

I gave two real world examples of this in my previous post. We spray every two weeks, which should keep us safe but isn't quite often enough to guarantee it. Occasionally we have a year like 2013 where we end up losing some turf, and we just have to deal with it until we can increase our chemical budget. We also buy used equipment and try to find value. Instead of a $70k rough unit, we'll buy one for about $15k. But there's a downside there, because we need to find one with relatively low hours and even then it might only last half as long as the brand new one would have, so we'll face this expense again twice as quickly. We're always trying to walk a fine line, which is what a good budget should force you to do. The hard part is that we sometimes lack the metrics we'd like to help support those decisions. A lot of it ends up being feel when you're asking questions like "Is a unit with 500 fewer hours worth an extra $5k?"

I guess I define a "cop out" as suggesting a club you have no familiarity with is spending too much, and then being unable to say how much they should be spending.   I forget what your company does. Does your data help clubs make those "feel" decisions a little less feel-based?

Jason

I have sent you a PM

[BCowan]

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[SL_Solow]

Ben;  the answer is supplied by your "friend's father".  If he doesn't like the rules, he shouldn't join.  If you don't like the rules, you shouldn't join.  But if the members like their club, and there is nothing offensive about the rules, then they should not be compelled to change to suit an outsider's tastes.  That is what makes a club a club.  If the rules scare off enough potential members, the club will change or fail.  None of the arguments advanced in this thread convince me that those arguing against the restrictions have spent any significant time with club finances to be able to give meaningful advice.  Moreover, one has to understand the model of most private clubs.  Publics are businesses and their decisions are usually dictated by the bottom line unless they are owned by someone who wants to experiment and has the money to do so.  Private clubs, on the other hand are luxury items.  Memberships must pay for their luxury but have no profit motivation.  Rather, they determine how much in the way of service they are willing to pay for.  One selects a club based upon a variety of factors including cost.   Others are influenced by where the dollars are spent.  Some prefer large clubhouses with a broad range of amenities.  If the membership agrees and wants to pay, so be it.  Others, like many of us, focus on the quality of the golf course.  There is a broad range of trade offs.  None of them are right or wrong; they are just choices.  Whether a particular market will support the choices made is revealed over time and through changing economic conditions.  I have no problem with anyone expressing their preference, but the attempts to suggest that those choices also comport with economic success are unconvincing.

[BCowan]

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