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BCowan

Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« on: November 20, 2013, 08:13:20 PM »
Does anyone think trolley's save money in maint. on a course?  Buggies on private courses bring in revenue but increase maint. costs a little?  I have noticed courses that allow trollies to be in better economic shape, has anyone else?  Why do people look down on trollies in the US?

Brent Hutto

Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2013, 08:20:18 PM »
Well if you take everyone who hates trolleys because they would rather force people to spend $100 a round on caddies instead...

And add in everyone who hates trolleys because they would rather force people to spend $20 on a golf cart instead...

And add in a few others who just hate everything different than their own preferences...

That all adds up to a lot of hate for trolleys.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2013, 08:21:07 PM »
I'm a fan of walking any time you want, and trollies like the Sun Mountain and Clic three wheeler cause less damage than dragging your feet.

But public and private courses/clubs depend on cart revenue these days.  Yes there is added original expense (cart paths) and added maintenance (cart paths and carts themselves), but the economics are strongly pro cart.  Still it's sad to see courses/clubs that require carts.  The economics have cemented this tendency.  

BCowan

Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2013, 08:27:48 PM »
Bill

    Are there courses in your area that are doing bad that allow trolleys?  Are there any that don't allow trolley's that are doing bad?


Brent, That was hilarious 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2013, 08:39:49 PM »
Bill

    Are there courses in your area that are doing bad that allow trolleys?  Are there any that don't allow trolley's that are doing bad?



Ben, this is the Redneck Riviera down here in Pensacola, Florida (aka Baja Alabama).  All the clubs (only one private) are scraping by, there are no caddies, and you can pull/push your trolley anytimeon any of them.  All the course operators are unhappy if you walk vs. paying for a cart, although none will show it.  

By the way, where are you from?  We don't hear "trolley" a lot this side of the pond.  

BCowan

Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 08:48:31 PM »
Bill

    I am from Toledo,OH.  I live in Ann arbor,mi.  My uncle and aunt live in Pensacola and play at a private club (Perdido Bay i think).  I love Pensacola.  Wasn't a fan of Lost Key (lost ball)!  I like Marcus Pointe, haven't played it in 15 years.  Great beaches in Pensacola.  

Ben

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 09:19:57 PM »
I don't know why there is a stigma here in the USA associated with trolleys/pushcarts/pullcarts. It seems like they are commonly used in the UK, Australia and other areas, but not so much here. I don't get it. Does it look too "muni" for some folks' tastes?

That said, I prefer to carry my own bag whenever possible. And although I would almost always prefer to walk, I am not opposed to carts/buggies. I have some older friends who cannot walk 18 holes. I have other friends who aren't dedicated golfers but want to ride and drink a few beers with friends while out on the course. I say there's room for walkers, those who ride and those who take caddies or trolleys. Inclusion should be the name of the game. Moreover, in this day and age where courses are struggling to survive, I say the correct approach is to let golfers choose how they want to play the course--whether carrying, riding or pushing/pulling.

As for the question about maintenance, I have no doubt that trolleys cause far less stress or damage to a course. But interestingly, a former club where I played, and where almost all the members took carts, the worst fairways were those that were cart path only. The holes that allowed carts in the fairways had wonderfully firm and compacted turf.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 09:24:31 PM by Brian Hoover »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 09:58:18 PM »
Bill

    I am from Toledo,OH.  I live in Ann arbor,mi.  My uncle and aunt live in Pensacola and play at a private club (Perdido Bay i think).  I love Pensacola.  Wasn't a fan of Lost Key (lost ball)!  I like Marcus Pointe, haven't played it in 15 years.  Great beaches in Pensacola.  

Ben

Come see us.  I'm a member at Pensacola CC, which is the only private here. Perdido is a public disguised as a semi-private.  Happy to have you out whenever you're down this way.  Tuesday afternoons are best, 50% guest fee!

Yes, our beaches attract folks from Houston to Atlanta, with lots of Birmingham here.  

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2013, 10:00:14 PM »
I don't know why there is a stigma here in the USA associated with trolleys/pushcarts/pullcarts. It seems like they are commonly used in the UK, Australia and other areas, but not so much here. I don't get it. Does it look too "muni" for some folks' tastes?

Brian, I think it is insecurity.  If you're paying the big bucks to belong to a "prestegious" private club, and folks see you walking with a trolley, they might think you really don't have the money you're trying to show you have by belonging to said club.  Now, obviously, that's a generalization - not nearly the only answer or a complete one.  But, I believe that's part of the equation.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2013, 10:31:09 PM »
Here'a split personality: Merion

East: Caddies only before 2pm, after walk & carry. No carts allowed.

West: Trolleys available for rental only for a modest cost or walk & carry. Limited carts may be available. Not sure about carts.


My former club in Philly  rejected trolleys as  they were "too public course" Carts were $25, may be more now. Caddies and bag carriers were available on weekends. Walk&carry after 2pm.

My favorite private here in the desert is Desert Forrest where walking is allowed any time- with a caddie, trolley, carrying one's own bag  or even using a 4bag cart so one could at least walk some.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 12:11:15 AM »
Carts surely cause more maintenance wear and tear than trolleys, but they also generate a lot of revenue that offsets that damage and then some.

Apart from that, don't most of the criticisms used against carts also apply to trolleys? I don't understand the anti-cart pro-trolley guys.

Personally, I'm pro everything. I prefer to walk and carry. I like a caddie once in a while. I never use a trolley, but I'm all for anything that gets more people walking. And I'll take a cart once in a while when, like Hoover, I play with one of my older friends or my mother or one of my casual golfer buddies. For that matter, I basically agree with Hoover's entire post.

My club doesn't allow trolleys though, and I can't say that I miss them. They are ugly. So are carts, but at least those generate revenue.

Ben, is there anything more than your anecdotal observation that suggests courses allowing trolleys are faring better financially? I'd be shocked and interested if any data exists that shows any correlation, positive or negative, between trolley policy and financial solvency.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2013, 03:49:58 AM »
Once you have paid for the cart paths, storage building, charging and people to maintain all this do carts really make a decent profit? I can see the reason for them in warmer climates and that in certain countries a large number of people will not play if there are no carts so they are an obvious choice but I think here in the UK a small fleet maybe profitable but I suspect a large fleet might not be though I don't know.

Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2013, 03:55:58 AM »
Does anyone think trolley's save money in maint. on a course?  Buggies on private courses bring in revenue but increase maint. costs a little?  I have noticed courses that allow trollies to be in better economic shape, has anyone else?  Why do people look down on trollies in the US?


BCowan

I definitely think it costs more to have buggies on the course.  There have been countless times when I have seen wet areas chewed up by carts.  The typical solution is wall to wall cart paths and not allowing carts off the paths and of course that is expensive.  I would much rather see very limited cart paths (to areas which are obviously vulnerable or dangerous) and just ride on the grass.  When the weather is too wet, ban buggies.  When the weather is very wet, ban trollies. Cart paths should never interfer with the design or a golf shot - call it the #1 golden rule.  

I spose if there are limited cart paths and a good percentage of folks opt for trollies as an alternative to the buggie, then maybe trolley clubs could be better off financially, but I am still skeptical.   We also have to remember that some grasses just can't take a daily beating of cart traffic.  I shudder to think what would become of my course if carts were allowed willy nilly.  To protect the grasses, it would definitely mean wall to wall paths - just about the worst thing I can imagine.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2013, 04:50:12 AM »
I'm writing from the UK perspective here.

Electrically powered trolleys are massively popular in the UK. I use one, and have done so for years even though my preference would always be to carry if I could. Without electric trolleys many older or infirm folk, especially on hilly courses, would not be playing at all or only playing a few holes. I would guestimate that at my club about 70% of male players use an electric trolley, the other 30% either using the modern push trolley or carrying. For ladies it's probably more like 95%-5% split with none at all carrying. This does of course reflect the age profile of a club, but that's another issue for another debate. At most, but not all, UK clubs, the Pro will have a few of electric trolleys to rent out, which is very useful for visitors etc and makes him some revenue.

Also popular in the UK are small one-person electrically powered buggies, sort of like high spec disabled buggies. These normally have handlebars rather than a steering wheel and no front windscreen. These machines, the use of which is normally restricted to those with some physically limitation, or of a certain age or illness or disability, are surprisingly 'grippy' even when conditions are wet. As to twin-person buggies, well these should only be for the old/infirm/disabled IMO and then not allowed when it's too wet/slippery - twin person buggies with those fat smooth types are far more prone to going sideways wet it's wet, even with just morning dew, than the single person buggies, which have thinner tyres. Another consideration with buggies in the UK is the temperature - with limited physical movement to keep you warm buggies from late-autumn to late-spring can be damn cold and staying out for 18-holes a distinctly chilling physical experience.

It is also worth pointing out that there is a physically disabled golfing element in the UK with golfers actually playing all their shots seated in their specially converted buggies, and good luck to the folk involved too, it's great that they are able to participate in a game they love.

One interesting aspect of electric trolleys, and the new generation of push carts, is wheel width. Years ago, before electric trolleys in fact, all trolleys, either push or pull, had very narrow wheels, bicycle width, some even had spoked wheels. Then in the '80's, 'someone somewhere' thought that wide wheels were less damaging to the course so narrow wheels were discouraged/banned and folk had to buy new trolleys or convert their existing ones. A nice money making venture. Now, the wheel has turned, no pun intended, and the modern generation of push or pull cart has narrow wheels. Crazy world sometimes.

All the best
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 05:04:32 AM by Thomas Dai »

BCowan

Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue) New
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2013, 09:30:55 AM »
..
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 09:22:10 AM by BCowan »

Phil Lipper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2013, 09:42:19 AM »
My club in NJ allows trolleys and stores them for members that use them. There is a club just over the border in NY state that encourages them and the club owns about 75 Sun Mountain trolleys that the members use.

BCowan

Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2013, 09:58:34 AM »
Thanks Phil

     How are the courses doing financially, any better than ones that ban them?

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2013, 10:32:41 AM »
Are the single buggies the standing ones?  Single buggies would speed up public golf play immensely.  

BC,

The single person buggies, some are 3-wheel, most are 4-wheel, look like this - http://www.grass-hopper.co.uk/single_seat.htm
There are quite a few companies making them with price points ranging upwards from around £1,400-ish depending on specification. Some folk leave them at their home club (if permitted and facilities available), some transport them on a trailer pulled behind their car, some dismantle them and put them in their car, some have a car/van with a big enough rear access door to allow them to be loaded inside via ramps. I wouldn't be surprised if some ride them to the course/club (on the pavement?). Some courses/clubs, I believe Woodhall Spa is one, have some single seaters to rent out to disabled/infirm etc visitors.

For those who are not familiar with what we in the UK call an 'electric trolley', well this is an example - http://www.powakaddy.com/ Numerous companies make them, price points ranging upwards from around £200-ish. They are pretty lightweight, fold down and easily fit in the back of a car. Most, although not all, Pro-shops have some to rent out to visitors etc.

All the best
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:39:05 AM by Thomas Dai »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2013, 11:43:14 AM »
The question is a fair one but the implied analysis is somewhat simplistic.  There are many factors that impact on the success or failure of a business enterprise like a golf course.  Clearly, conventional golf carts are more expensive, require the construction and maintenance of cart paths, and damage courses more than walking carts.  They also generate more revenue both through the direct fees collected and via increased play from those who would not walk.  They also have other impacts that may not be directly measurable; e.g. certain grasses will not stand up to cart traffic so they are eliminated from use at courses which have considerable cart play.

Every operator that I have met keeps careful track of the number of rounds, those in which  players walks and ones in which players ride.  They understand the revenue generated from cart fees.  They know what they spend on path maintenance and repair of damage.  For those with continuous paths, they calculate the income received on days when they are open where they would otherwise be closed. They even try to determine whether there is additional food and beverage revenue from those riding as opposed to walkers. At least in the USA, almost all have concluded that carts are a net economic benefit.  But as noted there are other factors.  How does the facility do on food and beverage?  Is there an oversupply of courses?  What can they charge per round?  Do they pay for city water?  etc. etc.  So one cannot draw a simple ratio between use of carts and profitability.

Make no mistake about it; I am a proponent of walking.  I only ride when required or if I am trying to get a lot of holes in when the course is empty and even then I usually sacrifice holes so that I can walk.  Like most clubs in the Chicago area, we have a strong caddy program staffed mostly by students, and I am major supporter of that effort.  But because I prefer and support walking does not alter economic reality.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2013, 11:47:32 AM »
Carts surely cause more maintenance wear and tear than trolleys, but they also generate a lot of revenue that offsets that damage and then some.

Do you have statistics to prove this or is this an anecdotal claim?

Quantifying cart damage to turf is something the armchair architecture enthusiast should probably not attempt. I would like to hear from our GC Superintendents on this subject. Outside of the initial outlay for cart paths very few courses insist on cart path only every day. So carts do drive on the turf and surely some damage is done. Damage is probably quite different depending on the turf type as well. We all know that fescue is very sensative to cart damage and walking only facilities like Bandon Dunes and Ballyneal could not maintain their links like turf if the entire tee sheet was allowed to drive carts over it. I suspect that warm season grasses like Bermuda or Kikuyu tolerate the traffic better. I do know that for the 2008 US Open Torrey Pines relagated all carts to their continuous paths for 6 months prior to the Event. The fairways were immaculate, however conditions completely turned around less than a month after the Event since at least 80% use a cart there.

Does the cart revenue go into the same fund that supports course maintenance? I doubt that cart revenue is used to support the maintenance budget, but I could be wrong there.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 11:53:15 AM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2013, 12:05:37 PM »
Jason;  I don't have a lot of hard data.  My statements were based on 20 years as Greens chair or President at my club and 10 years as cochair of a regional golf associations committee on greens in which I meet regularly with supers fom our area.  We also have a full time agronomist who works with the supers when they have problems.  So I have a pretty fair idea of overtime, direct costs and equipment needed to repair damag at our place and I also have seen our numbers on cart revenue.  We don't put the revenue into a fund for the course but in budgeting we allow for overtime, purchases etc anticipated due to damage and we base that on experience.  My conversations with other clubs reveals a generally similar approach although some maintain separate funds for path replacement that are generated through a deuction from cart revenue.  I share your concern that amateur architecture enthusiats may make unrealistic assumptions.  But those that are running courses, particularly those in the public sector, watch the bottom line carefully.  While I applaud efforts like those at Bandon, I suspect that is a relatively unique circumstance.  In most cases, at least from a financial perspective, carts are a net gain.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 01:02:46 PM by SL_Solow »

BCowan

Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue) New
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2013, 12:26:51 PM »
..
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 09:22:36 AM by BCowan »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2013, 12:35:10 PM »
In parts of Asia, women caddies use trolleys, some I believe, with two bags per trolley.

In the Middle East you should be okay physically to trolley/carry during their 'winter' period, but you'd be crazy to even attempt it at 120* and mega humidity during their summer.

I believe there was a case very recently where a golfer in Mexico was attacked by a croc. After being 'persuaded' to let go of the mans thigh, the croc then tried to eat the buggy! One of the better uses of a buggy some might sugget! So many variables depending where you are playing.

All the best.

Phil Lipper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2013, 12:37:23 PM »
My club in NJ allows trolleys and stores them for members that use them. There is a club just over the border in NY state that encourages them and the club owns about 75 Sun Mountain trolleys that the members use.

The clubs are doing fine, most of the clubs in my area are doing fine, demographics is very kind to them. Although I think the lack of caddies helps some clubs because as caddies start to get $80 to $100+ a bag it starts to make for expensive weekends. I enjoy playing a good course with a caddy but would want to pay for one 10 times a month.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2013, 01:09:18 PM »
Ben;  Again my answer is anecdotal.  There are clubs in our area that are having significant financial difficulties.  However, I have yet to hear from any club official on the private side that they have lost members or have had applicants withdraw applications because they are not permitted to use walking carts.  All of the privates in our town allow walking and the incremental difference in cost between carrying , walking carts and caddies generally are insignificant when compared to the other costs related to membership.  In Chicago there are  few public fee courses that require carts so this may not be the market to test that impact on overall play and revenue.