[ChipOat]

Hmmm, I was hoping the questions for Jeff would include more than just the genesis of the Ardmore Avenue course's (later called the East Course once there was a West Course) routing, design, whatever.

However, that is the primary (only?) topic regarding the history of Merion that seems to get the attention of The Treehouse.

I have read the book at least as closely as anyone else on this planet.  Maybe not MORE closely than anyone, but I am tied for first place with any/all of the usual suspects.

The depth of Jeff's research is beyond impressive.  Was he required to draw some conclusions from that research in a few cases?  Of course.  However, I can attest that there are no assumptions on his part that lead to his conclusions in the text other than whatever he had to decide/"assume" in order to "break a tie".  If there are known factual errors, it is because Jeff's original sources were mistaken.  If there are debatable recitations of history (of which there is, at least, one), it is because the author had to sort out everything he read and make his best choice.

I am told the book will be a sell-out.  Anyone with original sources that contradicts any part of the book should send them to Jeff for a possible second edition.

For what it's worth - and it's worth a great deal IMO - the club did not even suggest that the author's interpretation of what he found in his original research should be ignored or modified in any way in order to conform to anyone's preferred story line.    

[ChipOat]

509 pages of history and the only thing that matters on GCA is the Macdonald/Wilson thing?

Of course, I don't think there is anything else in the book that is unknown or debatable.  It is well-recorded who won which events and the other results of same.  

[JESII]

Chip,

Merion is an extremely special place, with a membership focused on generously offering their course(s) to outside tournament play at all levels for 100 years. I've had the privilege of growing up nearby and playing and watching casual and competitive golf on both the East and West courses enough to satisfy several lifetimes. In addition, I'm a golf architecture junkie that enjoys discussing courses I'm familiar with more than courses I'm not and the occasional conspiracy theory is always really fun to dig into.

There's not a single event/item you could reveal to me about Merion that would be more interesting than the facts behind the November 15th, 1910 Land Plan presented to Merion's membership for proposed purchase. More specifically, if one question could be factually answered; did the term "Approximate Road" along what is now Golf House  mean the committee had no idea where that edge of their golf course would be because they had not yet thought of routing the golf course? Or did it mean they  knew within a fairly tight range where the holes would go but wanted to retain some flexibility as the individual holes were designed?

As for Jeff's book, I look forward to reading it, but can't comment yet.

Best regards!

[Joe Bausch]

Another question for Jeff from Mike Cirba:

Jeff,
 
Quit hogging all of the sunlight...the rest of the country is fricking freezing!
 
Thanks for your insight regarding the timing of the Francis land swap.  I have a follow-up question if you'd be so kind.
 
In reading your book, I got the impression that you think CBM's July 1st 1910 letter to Merion about the suitability of the property for a quality course (based on his mid-June 1910 visit) was referring only to the land that HDC actually held at that time that they were making available to the club (i.e. 100 or so acres of the Johnson Farm, per the almost concurrent Barker letter that was solicited by Connell) and that the 21 or so acres of the Dallas Estate was not yet part of the consideration. 
 
In the letter, CBM  mentioned he thought it was possible to create a 6,000 yard course if they could acquire a bit more land near the clubhouse (presumably the railroad land they leased later), but couldn't be sure without a topographical map.
 
As you know, HDC didn't own the Dallas Estate until November.  Later accounts also mentioned that the club initially tried to get land down below the creek on 11 and 12 (which they later acquired in the 1920s) but were unable to at that time.  Is it your belief that CBM's letter and initial recommendation was based only on the land of the Johnson Farm, thus the concerns he expressed about whether there was enough land for even a 6,000 yard course?
 
Thanks!

[ChipOat]

Jim Sullivan:

I respect your priorities re: what is most interesting about Merion (or anything else).  While I have always found the discussions about "who did what" to be interesting (stripping out the vituperative emotion), I guess I just don't really need to know exactly what the answer is.  The fact that Macdonald and Whigham were on the property and offered up one (or more?) suggested routings is tantalizing enough for me.  That the details of that history have been lost makes the discussion worth having and several conclusions are arguably feasible.

I find the examination of the shot values on each hole to be much more interesting.  Also, the evolution of the shot values from the 1920's (no watering system, hickory shafts and the 1.62" ball) to 2013 is especially appealing.  Finally, Wilson included the aerial game (as did George Crump) on several holes that required more than just a Niblick for the approach.  For a pre WWI golf course, that is really interesting to me.  If I qualify for the Pearly Gates, one of my first "to-do's" is to find High Wilson and ask him about that.  The rest of the Treehouse (if they get in) will, no doubt, go off in a mad search for CBM to get his story on the routing.  I wonder if he and Hugh Wilson would agree on the degree of CBM's contribution?

[Joe Bausch]

More specifically, if one question could be factually answered; did the term "Approximate Road" along what is now Golf House mean the committee had no idea where that edge of their golf course would be because they had not yet thought of routing the golf course? Or did it mean they knew within a fairly tight range where the holes would go but wanted to retain some flexibility as the individual holes were designed?

From Jeff Silverman:

Jim --
   Regarding the road, while we don't know exactly what the committee was thinking, it's clear that Lloyd had control of the property on both sides of what became Golf House Road so the road could be adjusted to flow with the needs of the golf course rather than the golf course having to accommodate the road. These guys were smart. By being one of the first to build within the development -- Allgates, Lloyd's estate, sat on Coopertown Road -- Lloyd drew others into the burgeoning neighborhood, thus assuring he'd never have to look too far for someone play a round with.

[Joe Bausch]

Another question for Jeff from Mike Cirba:

Jeff,
 
Quit hogging all of the sunlight...the rest of the country is fricking freezing!
 
Thanks for your insight regarding the timing of the Francis land swap.  I have a follow-up question if you'd be so kind.
 
In reading your book, I got the impression that you think CBM's July 1st 1910 letter to Merion about the suitability of the property for a quality course (based on his mid-June 1910 visit) was referring only to the land that HDC actually held at that time that they were making available to the club (i.e. 100 or so acres of the Johnson Farm, per the almost concurrent Barker letter that was solicited by Connell) and that the 21 or so acres of the Dallas Estate was not yet part of the consideration. 
 
In the letter, CBM  mentioned he thought it was possible to create a 6,000 yard course if they could acquire a bit more land near the clubhouse (presumably the railroad land they leased later), but couldn't be sure without a topographical map.
 
As you know, HDC didn't own the Dallas Estate until November.  Later accounts also mentioned that the club initially tried to get land down below the creek on 11 and 12 (which they later acquired in the 1920s) but were unable to at that time.  Is it your belief that CBM's letter and initial recommendation was based only on the land of the Johnson Farm, thus the concerns he expressed about whether there was enough land for even a 6,000 yard course?
 
Thanks!

Jeff addresses Mike's question above:

Mike --
   As for CBM, I have no idea what he knew when he wrote his report or what he was privy to when he wrote his recommendations, only that he wrote them in July and the deal for the Dallas estate was finalized months later. We could speculate -- did CB's report light a fire or had a fire already quietly begun to burn? --  but without the facts,  whatever campfire you choose warm your hands in, you're still just speculating.

[Joe Bausch]

Jeff, which current hole at Merion is least changed since what was on the ground in 1912?

[DMoriarty]

Allgates was within the HDC development? If that were true, it would be news to me.  

[JESII]

From Jeff Silverman:

Jim --
   Regarding the road, while we don't know exactly what the committee was thinking, it's clear that Lloyd had control of the property on both sides of what became Golf House Road so the road could be adjusted to flow with the needs of the golf course rather than the golf course having to accommodate the road. These guys were smart.

Jeff,

Thanks for responding. I know the road is a tiny nuance not many people find very interesting so I appreciate it.

[JESII]

Chip,

I'd love to talk about the challenges presented at Merion in those days...or today for that matter!

My impression has always been that the smaller ball didn't curve as well as the larger one does, and that it had a lower hotter flight. I can go two ways based on those premises.

First, along the lines of Crump also building several aerial holes into Pine Valley; isn't a great portion of the architects job to provide challenging problems for the player?

Second, how did the switch from the small ball to the big ball impact the challenge presented to us? Did the ability to more easily hit approach shots up in the air make approach angles less important? the current 6th hole would seem a prime example of this shift.

[Joe Bausch]

Jeff, which current hole at Merion is least changed since what was on the ground in 1912?

Jeff answers:

I would say the least changed hole from 1912 if one considers basically same tees, same green etc would probably be #7. There has long been some speculation that Perry Maxwell did something at Merion East but it was not recorded. To me the 7th green looks more like Maxwell (the so-called "Maxwell Rolls") than any other green on the golf course, but that's only speculation.


Me again:  I've heard the Maxwell talk but have never found any concrete evidence of it.  But not many of the local papers from the 1930's have been digitized so researching this is a bit of a needle in a haystack.  Slowly but surely, however, these papers are being digitized.  If I was a betting man and was asked to predict whether Maxwell did anything there, I would bet 'yes'.  I wouldn't bet the house, but a small wager.   

[Terry Lavin]

Gentlemen, please, get a room.

[Ed Oden]

Jeff, which current hole at Merion is least changed since what was on the ground in 1912?

Jeff answers:

I would say the least changed hole from 1912 if one considers basically same tees, same green etc would probably be #7. There has long been some speculation that Perry Maxwell did something at Merion East but it was not recorded. To me the 7th green looks more like Maxwell (the so-called "Maxwell Rolls") than any other green on the golf course, but that's only speculation.


Me again:  I've heard the Maxwell talk but have never found any concrete evidence of it.  But not many of the local papers from the 1930's have been digitized so researching this is a bit of a needle in a haystack.  Slowly but surely, however, these papers are being digitized.  If I was a betting man and was asked to predict whether Maxwell did anything there, I would bet 'yes'.  I wouldn't bet the house, but a small wager.   

Joe, I agree.  As you know, I haven't found anything definitive yet. However, I am reasonably confident that Maxwell did something at Merion.  As far as I'm concerned, the most compelling evidence to date is a 1981 letter written by Press Maxwell that Chris Clouser sent me.  In the letter Press recalls some of the courses his father worked on.  Merion is included in the "remodel" category.  Press was working with his father off and on by 1936 at the latest when he was still in boarding school.  He traveled to various jobs Perry was working on during summer and winter breaks until 1942 when he graduated from Dartmouth and enlisted in the army.  Maxwell’s work at Merion is usually dated to 1938/1939.  So I suspect Press’ letter is correct since he knew what his father was working on and may have even been at Merion himself.  Hopefully something will eventually turn up to shed a little light.

All the best,

Ed

[JESII]

Gentlemen, please, get a room.

As you know Judge, 5 of the 6 key protagonists are not on GCA so this is just a little cocktail party to help welcome a new Merion book to the world.

[ChipOat]

I'm bring this back up because I'm told that GCA was "down" for some period (hours?) and that about two weeks of posts on all threads were lost.

David Moriarty,

You had put up a picture of the third green at NGLA that suggests that there was a front bunker at the edge of the green - perhaps across the entire front of the green although the picture didn't show that much.  If that is the case, then my post #29 and our subsequent dialogue about the ground game at National's Alps (the third) could support the premise that, while the aerial approach is rarely successful today, perhaps only the aerial game was the way to go in the beginning.

BTW, has anyone read some/most/all of Jeff's book and found anything else worth discussing than "who did what" from 1910-1912?

Admittedly, the book is not intended to be an in-depth treatise on golf course architecture, so there might not be so much for GCA in those 500+ pages.

However, I'll try one.  For those of you who either saw them first hand, or have studied the 1971, 1981 and 2013 U.S. Opens, I think the shot values, equipment evolution (especially the ball) and subsequent East Course preparation for each of those three championships is worthy of a discussion.

Anyone care to start?

[DMoriarty]

Chip,

I am not sure whether or not the gca.com site is stable yet.  According to Ran there is (was?) a chance that the lost two weeks of posts will be restored, but that all posts between the problem (Saturday?) and the fix will be lost.  So it might make sense on holding off on getting back into this until we get some further clarification from Ran. 

Here is some of what Ran posted on another thread on Sunday. 

. . .
ConnectNC is aware of the problem. I don't know the end result but I imagine that they will rebuild the site to yesterday. That will occur by late tomorrow, I hope.

Though I don't know the final outcome, I imagine that all posts from yesterday through tomorrow might end of being lost for good. Hence, I would NOT post until this problem is resolved as it could be a true waste of time.

Enjoy the Super Bowl and apologies.

[Joe Bausch]

I'm not that far in but already I would think this book is a strong candidate for the USGA's 2013 Herbert Warren Wind Book Award.

Congrats to Jeff as he was recently awarded the Herbert Warren Wind Book Award!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Congratulations to...Jeff? Do you know how hard this prediction business is? I had to buy a computer.

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