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Mark Chaplin

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #200 on: December 15, 2013, 04:49:58 PM »
RJ - arrive at club (if it's before lunchtime) wearing golf clothes and blazer, only wear shirt and tie on arrival if you are lunching. A lightweight wool blazer weighs less than a pair of jeans and two shirts will last a week as you only wear them after showering and for a relatively short time.
Cave Nil Vino

Dave Doxey

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #201 on: December 15, 2013, 07:13:17 PM »
Here's my perspective.

I was a member of private clubs for most of my long golfing life.  A job relocation, which at the time was to be only for a couple of years, forced me into the “cheap nomadic golfer” mode at approximately when the golf business fell on hard times.

While the 'cheap' part is indeed nice, due in some part to Internet tee times, the 'nomadic' part is not all that great and I miss the camaraderie of being a club member.

However, watching clubs struggle, I'm held back by the prospect of writing a check for $20K+ initiation to a private club that may fall on financial hard times and/or eliminate that initiation fee entirely in the future.  My investing background tells me not to buy into a falling market.  In the past, I have never given a second though to club initiation buy-ins, but given the current state of the industry, I do now.

I guess that I'm headed for one of two solutions.  One is a private club with no initiation, where I'll happily pay a higher cost-per-round in return for a good group of guys to play with.  The second would be to find a public course with some sort of formal or informal group of regulars who play together.  I guess, when you think about it, these two aren't all that different....

"Tradition" never comes to mind.  Perhaps these is none in US clubs?

Dave,
Those that get all tied up worrying about initiation or equity fees being a potentially losing investment should never join a club. That money should be considered lost upon joining and considered part of the freight for the golfing life they desire. I believe it was a huge mistake during the club boom to promote clubs with schemes centering on how easy you can get your money back when you leave. It attracted people to clubs that never would have joined it they knew the real truth which is that they would never see that money again. That's why we have massive sell lists now that will never be eaten away by influxes of new members. All of those folks grumbling about getting their "investment" back sends the club into a downward spiral.

If anyone is considering joining a new club and a major part of the sales pitch is how easy it will be to get their initiation/ equity back, they should run the other way.



I'm afraid that my next door neighbor wouldn't agree.  He plunked down $50K to join a club (Beacon Hill in VA) that went Chap-11 after the second season that he was a member.

His cost per round was about $2K.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #202 on: December 15, 2013, 07:28:58 PM »
RJ - arrive at club (if it's before lunchtime) wearing golf clothes and blazer....


I see.  Which way to the starter's hut?  8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #203 on: December 15, 2013, 07:42:08 PM »
BTW, I have a question for my more well traveled foreign golf architecture seeking friends like Bill McB and Mike W.  Having seen your photos at dinners after rounds at some to the greatly thought of international clubs, you gents being all dressed up in your sport coats and ties at the club house after-golf gatherings;  I'm puzzled by the logistics of the whole process.   Do you dress in coat and tie, on your way to the club you've been invited to, carry your golf clothes with you and change, then afterwards change into the coat and tie again- or the other way around, drive in golf attire, play and change in the coat and tie you carry with you?  It seems to me to be an awful lot of extra baggage space to pack a coat and shirt-tie and enough golf and casual tourist clothes, on a typical multi-day, or week+ foreign trip, and your golf clubs to lug around as well.

RJ - It's not too difficult a process. As Mark says, you either wear your sportcoat & golf clothes to the course and change into coat & tie after golf/shower... or, you just wear your golf clothes to the course and carry your coat, shirt and tie in a hanging bag. It's really not too much trouble and for an American like me from a mostly casual golf background it's kind of fun dressing up a bit for lunch or dinner. I rarely wear a jacket and tie more than once or twice in a two week trip. It's usually only required when there is some kind of match with another club or there is a competition that features a "proper" meal to dispense the awards.

I will add that it often seems to me the English only play golf as an excuse to eat and drink afterward!  ;D
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #204 on: December 15, 2013, 11:27:33 PM »
Sean,

I'm not in the strongest of positions to compare UK golf to any other golf markets but, with specific regard to the internet, the issue is one of transparency. Granted you can't play golf online yet but you can buy (not simply book) a tee time there. That isn't to contradict anything we've said about supply exceeding demand, it's just that the internet highlights that over supply.

Paul

Fair enough, but as said earlier, I think the real culprit for struggling clubs has been identified.  All the other talk is just milling about the edges of the real issue.  If every club dropped all its traditions, there still aren't enough golfers to fill the membership rolls.  To think a serious number of new golfers will come to the game if and when this happens is a bit pie in the sky thinking.  There are already a ton of clubs with virtually no connection with tradition which are struggling.  I still say, a good product in good condition is the number one best seller for golfers.  

Ciao

Sean,

I would agree that an imbalance between supply and demand is largely responsible for a shortfall of members across the board and also for falling prices. However, each individual club is in its own battle for survival and must do what it can to attract sufficient members from the available pool of golfers, to the detriment of its competitors if necessary. If competing local clubs go under, that is good news for the clubs remaining. Such is the world.

I take issue however, with your assertion that traditional clubs with interesting courses are most likely to survive. I can only go from my own local knowledge and experience but it is clear that in this area at least many recently built courses are thriving while a lot of the older clubs are on their knees.

http://www.styalgolf.co.uk/club%20info.html

http://www.vra.co.uk/golf/

http://www.highleghpark.com/

http://www.peovergolfclub.co.uk/index.php

These places have all been built in the last 20 years and to one degree or another seem to be doing just fine despite architecturally uninspiring courses. They attract a much younger golfer than older clubs,  have not adopted many of the old-fashioned traditions I started this thread bemoaning, have excellent practice facilities and most importantly of all, have USGA greens that never close in winter.

It is impossible to over-estimate the importance to the average golfer of not having to play on temporary greens at the first hint of frost. This is one area where newer courses have a big advantage and is more important to most golfers - particularly young ones - than general golf course architecture.

These are the kind of places that traditional clubs must compete with for the available number of serious golfers, and they are not going to win the battle by continuing with all the 'Mr Captain' bollocks.



 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 02:17:34 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #205 on: December 16, 2013, 11:43:18 AM »
RJ - that's perfectly acceptable at NGLA.

Duncan at private member clubs the standards are set by the board, which is elected from the members. If members don't like it then within 3 or 4 years the whole ethos of a club can be easily changed. I don't see many members clubs keen to change the status quo. You really must come and spend a weekend at a proper members club and see what it's really like.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Pearce

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #206 on: December 16, 2013, 11:54:25 AM »
Duncan,

You continue to describe clubs I simply don't recognise.  I'm a member at two clubs which would be considered very traditional, one in Northumberland and one in Fife.  At both I call the captain by his Christian name and so does everyone else.  Where are these clubs which still call the Captain "Mr Captain" and, if you belong to one and it makes you so unhappy, why don't you leave?  Or even just try using his Christian name instead?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #207 on: December 16, 2013, 12:10:32 PM »
http://www.peovergolfclub.co.uk/index.php



Anyone care to suggest how to correctly pronounce the name of this particular golf club?

ATB

RJ_Daley

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #208 on: December 16, 2013, 12:38:44 PM »
http://www.peovergolfclub.co.uk/index.php



Anyone care to suggest how to correctly pronounce the name of this particular golf club?

ATB

Alternative logo possibilities boggle the mind.  ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Niall C

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #209 on: December 16, 2013, 12:59:40 PM »
There was an article in the Herald last week where this very topic was brought up and Hamish Gray, the supremo of the SGU, suggested the way forward was to relax the rules as advocated by Duncan etc. He suggested that 60% of member clubs of the SGU had sought advice from the SGU and this was basically the advice given. The article then went on to mention 3 golf "clubs" that had gone under in the last 3 years (out of just under 600 in Scotland).

Two of them were commercial operations, one of which was low budget in the middle of nowhere and has now reverted back to farmland, the other I believe (could well be wrong) has been redeveloped for higher value use. The one members club to go belly up is Lothianburn GC which did so recently. Interestingly the club decided to call it quits when their membership dropped to 300 from 800. I'm assuming they were carrying a level of debt that didn't allow them to cut their cloth or perhaps the office bearers felt it wasn't worth the fight. I'd be interested to know what tipped the balance.

Niall

Carl Johnson

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #210 on: December 16, 2013, 02:03:18 PM »
http://www.peovergolfclub.co.uk/index.php



Anyone care to suggest how to correctly pronounce the name of this particular golf club?

ATB

Alternative logo possibilities boggle the mind.  ;D

Sorry, but I've been told it's "Pee - ver", like beaver.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #211 on: December 16, 2013, 02:10:51 PM »
Duncan,

You continue to describe clubs I simply don't recognise.  I'm a member at two clubs which would be considered very traditional, one in Northumberland and one in Fife.  At both I call the captain by his Christian name and so does everyone else.  Where are these clubs which still call the Captain "Mr Captain" and, if you belong to one and it makes you so unhappy, why don't you leave?  Or even just try using his Christian name instead?

Clearly then this is a regional phenominum. In this part of the world all traditional members clubs expect the Captain to be addressed as 'Mr Captain' or 'Skipper'.  From now on however I shall do exactly as you suggest and use their Christian name. Given my publicised views it would be hypocritical to do otherwise.

Quote from: Thomas Dai
Anyone care to suggest how to correctly pronounce the name of this particular golf club?

Sadly Peover is pronounced 'Peevor'   :)

Sean_A

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club? New
« Reply #212 on: December 16, 2013, 05:42:58 PM »
Duncan

You are making mountains out of molehills. I didn't say that all the good courses would survive, just that I think all things being equal, they have the best shot.  I am not aware of a huge trend where golfers leave well designed traditional clubs to move to newer modern clubs.  I am aware of a long standing trend in the opposite direction though.  Most golfers could care less about the odd silly tradition (I have only ever called the Captain of a club so as a measure of playful respect - certainly not in total earnest) if it means playing on a better, more prestigous course.  That doesn't mean some older courses will not close down, but I think the main reasons for those closures will be economics/bad location etc rather than losing head to head battles with modern clubs who are traditionless.  For instance, you have eluded to your club being in trouble.  Has anybody actually done a study as to the reasons why?  I don't know the area well, but I would guess the area doesn't help.  The course has a few awkward walks.   I haven't seen the course in good nick and that could be a reason.  I am also quite surprised by the very low green fee which IMO sends the wrong message about the course quality and probably generally effects the rep of the club.  No joining fee is another bad message which can badly effect the rep of the course.  All I am saying is there can be many reasons for financial issues and I believe the idea of club tradition isn't particularly high on the list.  As Chappers stated, clubs change.  I know as I have seen two clubs drastically alter dress codes yet maintain loads of traditions which help to make a club a club.   

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 06:40:55 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #213 on: December 17, 2013, 04:13:26 AM »
I know someone who regularly refers to 'The Captain' as "Ahab"! I also understand that on leaving office after his 12-month stint one particular Captain was presented by one particular member with a toilet roll to mark his contribution to the club! Ouch!
ATB

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #214 on: December 17, 2013, 11:09:46 AM »
Duncan, this one might appeal to you... Was used to highlight that in days gone past, secretary-managers were usually ex-army:

As a new captain once said to the long standing Secretary-Manager with an Army rank,

Captain: How shall I address you ?
Secretary-Manager: You shall call me Major and I shall call you captain, captain

Brent Hutto

Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #215 on: December 17, 2013, 11:31:53 AM »
I play golf sometimes with a guy who was a General in the US Army. I guess if he joined an English golf club and got elected Captain he'd decline the position because it's a downgrade...

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #216 on: December 18, 2013, 02:48:26 PM »
Brent call him a Naval Captain!
Cave Nil Vino

Niall C

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #217 on: December 20, 2013, 08:10:30 AM »
Now that all the traditional members clubs are getting a whopping big payback from the Revenue, all will be well with the world, subs will come down, members will come flocking back and knee length socks will be required when wearing shorts. Marvellous.

Niall

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #218 on: December 20, 2013, 08:26:39 AM »
This probably belongs on the thread about the Bridport case, but it should be noted that not _all_ members' clubs will be getting a windfall. As far as I'm aware, if claims have not already been submitted, they won't be able to do so now. I am told that between 300-400 clubs have filed claims.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.