[Adrian_Stiff]

Ricardo's and Sean's view are the basic problems with reciprocal. If one course is the best then the other courses get a great deal, for that reason the county card is as near perfection as it can be IF it is a genuine perk for being a MEMBER OF A CLUB.

If you want a free reciprocal with a local then both courses need to be WITHIN 30 MINS and of SAME QUALITY.

So I think Duncan's multi-clubs reciprocal is going to be hard to start matching 3, 4 or 5 Courses. I think it could be good to have an annual match against 4 or 5 clubs, just put up a trophy and have a semi-friendly match once a year and just swap venues each year. All sit down and have a meal afterwards, great teambuilding and just the sort of thing to make you want to be a member (or stay one) Friendlies, straggler matches, team/league matches are all part of the making of a great golf club and whilst a great course is important, its not everything to everyone. Sadly some people don't want to get involved in competitions, matches or even go in the clubhouse. It is this group which are the more difficult to retain as members. I know with the people that use our reciprocal arrangement they are all the completion/team and high users anyway. I have 100 members and I don't know their names.

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - The county card used to be a perk of becoming an individual member of the county golf union. I believe Sussex started the scheme many years ago. You used to get one guest fee per year, now there are hundreds of clubs and it's basically a discount card, so the county union has no leverage in trying to get better clubs to join. The rules are you get the discount within your county, you only get the discount in other counties if your club accepts the card. Most clubs are very lax and often don't even sign it so you can use the discount more than once.

[Paul Gray]

Sean,

In case there was any confusion, my reference to you travelling was a compliment. My point was simply that your bar (and understanding) is a lot higher than that of the average golfer.

And without wishing to answer for Duncan, personally I am advocating free rounds.

And all,

The objections raised to broader sweeping reciprocal arrangements are not substantiated by the facts. Again, the Crown scheme is a big success. There really is no reason for it not to work at many a private club. We're not talking generally about clubs in the upper echelons, we're talking about those numerous Club B's in that, as previously discussed, over supplied market. I don't (Lord help me) want to see the chains take over that particular golf market any more than I want to see Tescos and Sainsburys dominate the food market.

Feel free to throw me the name of any average club in Hampshire and I'll throw you ten names of other clubs in the county which would benefit from added reciprocity with it.  

[Adrian_Stiff]

Paul - I agree that the Crown system does work well, but Crown own all those clubs so it does not matter if members from Club A play 83 times and Club F and members of Club F play Club A 12 times. It is a complete different system, but a very good one and they have marketed it brilliant. Crown courses are those I mentioned that appeal to Under 40s.

Crown have or had a lot of courses around the M25. I suspect the members at The Bristol don't use the M25 as reciprocals too much. We don't hear too much of the Crown benefits this way (I am in Bristol) but for the 15 or 20 clubs they have...its effectively a London membership but if they had a real star course it probably would not work.

[Sean_A]

Sean - The county card used to be a perk of becoming an individual member of the county golf union. I believe Sussex started the scheme many years ago. You used to get one guest fee per year, now there are hundreds of clubs and it's basically a discount card, so the county union has no leverage in trying to get better clubs to join. The rules are you get the discount within your county, you only get the discount in other counties if your club accepts the card. Most clubs are very lax and often don't even sign it so you can use the discount more than once.

Chappers

There is general confusion over the Co Card.  My understanding is the card is now accepted at all participating clubs.  YORKS clubs were a big hold out in the system until a few years ago.  The name of the card should probably be changed as it no longer makes sense.  To be honest, tons of golfers don't even know the system exists.  It isn't very well advertised at a lot places.  Indeed, when the dues packet is mailed, info about the card should be included.

You are right though, most clubs now don't bother to even sign the card off.  In fact, for some Counties, the card is now like a credit card rather than a paper book.  Even so, I rarely want to use the Co Card more than once a year for any club.  There are too many other courses to see and to be honest, a fair number of the courses I really like and that are close enough to stop in more than once a year, are very cheap anyway or I play in the open comps. 

When its all said and done, membership of a club brings loads of opportunities to play other courses cheaply or free. 

1. Co Card
2. Team matches
3. You have a handicap so can enter open events
4. Some recipricals

I don't think cheap access to plenty of other courses is such a barrier at all.  Some members are just more on the ball about this kind of stuff than others are.

Ciao   

[Paul Gray]

Adrian,

Believe me, the fact that the clubs are owned by the same group doesn't mean members can play any given club 83 times. I know this only too well! Like I said before, limits are key to success. And, whilst I don't have any figures to hand to quote, the clubs tend to appeal to seniors as much as any other demographic i.e. people with time on their hands to travel around and play at various places. Certainly it's not correct to categorise the membership as being predominantly made up of the under 40's.

It's fair to say that in and around Bristol the scheme is of less promotional benefit. Again, local courses of a similar standard are where reciprocity works best. The star of the show (and these things of course are open to interpretation) is St. Mellion, which is indeed excluded from the scheme, as per your comment that schemes couldn't work if such clubs were included. Well, St.Mellion members can actually play elsewhere but it doesn't apply the other way round.

Reading your previous posts you clearly understand your own market very well and the modern golfing environment more broadly. Given the lack of understanding your average golfer has in the current market (I particularly liked your 'let's go to The Belfry' jibe), I wonder if I can't persuade you that convincing a typical club member that various local courses are of a similar quality (but not quite as good, obviously  ) is really not such a hard sell. My only real reservation about the idea is the potential to lose members to any given club which joins the scheme (again, best not to overplay the quality of potential competitors), and I'll concede that's not a problem Crown face with an internal reciprocal scheme.

Duncan,

We could talk hypotheticals forever, but what's your personal feeling about the ease of identifying, say, ten local clubs which you would like to be able to play occasionally for free and occasionally have their members trampling your fairways? And how do you think your fellow members would feel? This surely is the nub of it.

[Sean_A]

Paul

I was trying to think of courses near to Droitwich (ex-member) - say 15 miles - which are similar in quality but still worth a go.  All the courses which would interest me, would, I think, decline to join with D'wich.  All that is left are courses which are less than stimulating.  I spose Kidderminster, Redditch and Churchill & Blakedown are possibilies with some interest, but I think most golfers would soon tire of these.  A reciprocal with these three wouldn't be a deal closer by a long way. 

I can't see the better clubs such Worcester, Worcestershire & Blackwell ever wanting anything to do with D'wich.  That said, I can certainly see Worcester and Worcestershire doing a deal.  Blackwell would set their sites higher, as in Little Aston higher. 

You guys have to remember that Crown is a business.  There are sacrifices to be made when joining that sort of club like putting up with tons of visitors and societies on weekends. Its dog eat dog stuff at these places.  I used to play a lot at Clubhaus courses - they were the first to really bring that model into the country.  For many, the courses were waiting rooms for private club entrance.  Eventually people get fed up with weekend grief and what are often trying conditions because a load of these courses are built on poor land.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan,

We could talk hypotheticals forever, but what's your personal feeling about the ease of identifying, say, ten local clubs which you would like to be able to play occasionally for free and occasionally have their members trampling your fairways? And how do you think your fellow members would feel? This surely is the nub of it.

I think ten local clubs is too many for a scheme to be manageable. I was thinking between three and five.

My suggestions would be;

Reddish Vale                    Just off M60 to the south east of Manchester     http://rvgc.co.uk/

North Manchester             Just off M60 to the north of Manchester            http://www.nmgc.co.uk/

Worsley                           Just off M60 to the west of Manchester             http://www.worsleygolfclub.co.uk/


All traditional Club 'B's with very good courses and similar demographics of members. All three are in areas bristling with competing golf clubs and would benefit from adding value to their membership. All three are 20-30 minutes away from the others with direct motorway access.


A couple of outlyers;  


Cavendish             MacKenzie

Bolton Old Links     MacKenzie

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean how do you get a county card now days? I paid £50 for life membership of Kent Golf Union at least 20 years ago. Good value!

There is one other thing that assists private member clubs over for profit business - cue Adrian's mirth - and that's VAT which can made £150-250 difference in subs.

[Thomas Dai]

how do you get a county card now days?

My County Card is a plastic card (the size of a standard credit card) and was obtained from the office of my Clubs Secretary. It has "Englandgolf", my name and competition handicap database number on one side and on the reserve side the name and emblem of my County. In previous years I used to pay my County about £10 a year for a County Card, which was actually a small booklet with my name and detailing a list of all participating clubs. Admin/organisation of the CC has now progressed such that now I pay a fee of around £5 that is automatically added to the subscription of all the members of participating clubs in my County. If I wish to play using my County Card I just show it in the pro-shop of the club when I arrive although I will have 'phoned beforehand as there are sometimes time, day of the week or even month of the year restrictions at some clubs. Most, but not all, participating clubs quote the County Card fee on their website.

My understanding is that the County Card can only be used once per year at any participating club you visit, although in practice this isn't always enforced, although I guess if you tried to play the same courses too often you might get challenged. Some clubs are members of the County Card scheme but don't publicise it.

ATB

[Sean_A]

Sean how do you get a county card now days? I paid £50 for life membership of Kent Golf Union at least 20 years ago. Good value!

There is one other thing that assists private member clubs over for profit business - cue Adrian's mirth - and that's VAT which can made £150-250 difference in subs.

Chappers

The Co Card fee is included in Union dues, hence the reason the dues jumped about £5 a few years ago.  I don't think Deal is on the scheme - posh bastidos  .

I know Adrian will jump on the VAT train, but that is one of the differences of being a business. I thought this situation was under scrutiny and that many proprietor clubs were hoping to claim back some VAT collected off member dues.  Its hard to say if the privates dues are higher because they have the VAT cushion or if Props dues are lower because of the VAT hit.   

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

The general experience by the clubs I have talked to is that reciprocal arrangements do not lead to ne members joining, increase the amount of outside play slightly but that the club sees a fall in the amount of revenue taken in greenfees.

Jon

[Mark Pearce]

As RIcardo picked up but no-one else has acknowledged, this discussion has moved some distance.  Far from "traditions" being the problem with UK golf clubs it looks like most are now agreed that economics is the problem.  I'm much happier with that as a reason.

[Paul Gray]

Duncan,

If you extended that to an hour I'm sure there would be more, although it's been a long time since I lived anywhere near your part of the world and my sticks were firmly gathering dust in my student days! But seriously, stretching out on the M56 and such like surely brings you into range of a few more.

But most importantly, how would your fellow members feel about it? I'm confident it would work in my neck of the woods but I can only speak for a few soft southern playboys!

Jon,

Very good but you are talking about Scotsmen and there wallets!  

[Paul Gray]

As RIcardo picked up but no-one else has acknowledged, this discussion has moved some distance.  Far from "traditions" being the problem with UK golf clubs it looks like most are now agreed that economics is the problem.  I'm much happier with that as a reason.

Well kind of.

But the discussion for me at least is now about how best to succeed in a saturated middle ground and it's the less traditional chains which are currently coming out on top. I'm firmly of the view that we can't win (forgive me for the expression I'm about to throw in) the battle for heart and minds vs the water fountain brigade all the time we have Colonel Double Barrel in the car park screaming at a potential new member for not wearing knee length socks with his tailored shorts.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

Believe me, the fact that the clubs are owned by the same group doesn't mean members can play any given club 83 times. I know this only too well! Like I said before, limits are key to success. And, whilst I don't have any figures to hand to quote, the clubs tend to appeal to seniors as much as any other demographic i.e. people with time on their hands to travel around and play at various places. Certainly it's not correct to categorise the membership as being predominantly made up of the under 40's.

Paul - I did not mean that one person played 83 times. I am saying 'members' so in total, its just a hypothetical number, I am trying to demostrate the fact that the Crown is a group and therefore the situation is totally different, it does not matter if one club subsidises another. Also I said they were under 40 friendly and never said dominant.

If one club has a reciprocal with another it is effectively a partnership. Partnerships work when A does 50% and B does 50%. The problem with a lot of reciprocals is that matching of equals, so ultimately it can fail.

County cards are now issued by each county union. Each county has a different way of dealing with it. We pay £16.50 for it in Gloucestershire. I am expected to sell it and pass 100% on to the county....an outright liberty under normal trading however the money benifits the county. Many counties include it in their levy.

The Golfers Network is a group of 32  proprietary clubs that have banded together to basically do what Crown do. I am pretty sure Paul is right when he says it works well. The GN does not work as well (though I only have that from 1 club) his words to me were "no one really uses it". I looked at it and I can't see enough positives over the negatives. The problem is those courses are 1st best to 32nd best and whilst opinions may change on the best one, it is doubtfull that anyone would have the 32nd best in one opinion as the best in another. Looking in, I see a situation where 20 minutes away a club is £500 per year and we are £1040. The £500 club can play our course 10 times under this scheme.

The County card (and a payment of guest green fee) is the best way forward. The county card currently 'fails' because of other schemes which are equal to it or better 2-4-1s, teeofftimes etc.

If we could eradicate all the ponce systems then the value of the county card, that if you join a golf club you get a good discount at another club would be a great tool.

[Sean_A]

As RIcardo picked up but no-one else has acknowledged, this discussion has moved some distance.  Far from "traditions" being the problem with UK golf clubs it looks like most are now agreed that economics is the problem.  I'm much happier with that as a reason.

Mark

I said economics (as did Adrian to be fair) was the real issue in my first post.  Its obvious the issue is too many clubs.  The folks in the business prefer to think there aren't enough golfers, but thats pie in the sky thinking.  Cut the number of clubs by 10% and there are no issues whatsoever. All this talk of phones, jeans, Captain's Chair etc is very much sideline stuff.  Its about stealing members (often temporarily) from other clubs by offering a cheaper (sometimes only seemingly cheaper) deal.  I think it has been made quite clear that for the most part, the best courses, with the best conditions and with the best reputations are doing just fine. The ones which meet these criteria and are still in trouble are usually in a tough location.  Its the new breed clubs and the old time clubs bereft of some combo of the above three criteria  and have perhaps gone to new breed ideals which are scrambling. 

Although, to be fair, I think there is still a divide between private clubs and pay and play/proprietory clubs.  Many private folks will look down on the other two types and in truth, these other types are often waiting rooms for private clubs. Many props clubs don't have great reps because they tend to squeeze the membership whenever possible with higher booz and food prices, more congested course, courses not built on suitable terrain.  Eventually, the smartest golfers smarten up and become much more choosy about how they spend their golfing time and money. 

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

As RIcardo picked up but no-one else has acknowledged, this discussion has moved some distance.  Far from "traditions" being the problem with UK golf clubs it looks like most are now agreed that economics is the problem.  I'm much happier with that as a reason.

But it's not a simple either/or.

Many factors are contributing to the woes of struggling golf clubs; I started the thread focussing on the archaic Victorian/Edwardian club model as just one of them.

Clubs overall have been losing members for years. Pointing out that a few top-drawer clubs still have long waiting lists doesn't change this fact. The number of golfers out there is still impressive - 4.2 million in GB & I according to a report given to the recent Golf Club Managers Association conference of whom only 1.5 million are members of clubs. The big question is why 2.7 million people who play golf to one degree or another choose not to join a golf club.

I still believe that the percieved 'stuffiness' of traditional golf clubs is a significant factor in putting off a large number of these players. The fact that it is now cheaper to play once a week as a green-fee paying nomad than joining a club is just another of many.

Club membership has fallen by 10% in the last 10 years and the downward trend shows no sign of recovery.

Clubs need to address all factors that are relevent to their particular situation. Otherwise, many simply will not survive.

[Sean_A]

Duncan

I find it remarkable that your focus is on "Edwardian values" when we saw a huge golf course growth in the 80s and 90s and now remain in what is all but ame a recession which has been ongoing for five years.  That isn't to say that changing dress codes won't help (I don't think it makes much difference!), but delivering a better golf course for less money would help a lot more.  Most golfers are most sensitive about price and distance from the home.  

Additionally, I am extremely skeptical there are 4.2 million golfers in GB&I.  I strongly suspect the definition of a golfer is very lax and that huge percentage of that 4.2 million would never consider golf membership no matter the dress code or price whatever scheme a club can dream up.  The source of golf statistics is nearly always dodgy.  

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Sean,

I'd agree that the figure of 4.2 million looks iffy. It doesn't change the fact however, that club membership - for whatever reasons - is on the decline.


Most people on here have been around golf clubs for many years and have become accustomed to their peculiarities. Believe me though, to the vast majority of the population at large traditional golf clubs do come across as very peculiar places inhabited by some rather peculiar people!

And from just where do golf clubs expect to recruit future generatons of members?

Why, the population at large, of course!

[Adrian_Stiff]

There is no doubt the the thread has shifted somewhat.

I think we are all common in agreeing there is an over-supply and by and large that is the reason why most clubs are down 10% on where they would like to be numbers wise, waiting list numbers etc. In raw terms Sean's let 10% fold and it will all be okay is by and large right. I am probably dreaming when I say we should be all spreading the word of the health benifits to those 40 years and upwards and trying to get more people playing that way.

The biggest reason why some golfers dont join a golf club is cost relative to the number of times they play. If 4.2M UK golfers is the number I suspect 2.1M of those play once a year. As we have highlighted you need to approximately play 20 times per year before it is worth joining a club in most peoples eyes. I think golfers need to be regulars before they get the competition bug.

Retention of your members is not straightforward. If people play 30 times a year it is unlikely you will lose them. They might play for several seasons like that and then something happens where they have less time and so they play 15 times, that may tilt them to nomadic play. They might come back later when they have more time but all things considered, its all down to time and economics.

It is important to understand the people that play less than 30 times a year as members and this is why the £250 per year and £10 per round membership has kicked in. The fairest way to play golf is £250 as the club fee and then everyone pays a tenner (I am talking broad figures). You wont get your high users to agree though because they will be paying 50-60% more, but if you play 20 times why should pay the same as someone who plays 120 times. It is a difficult balancing act. The problem many golf clubs are facing is other clubs driving the price down as they struggle, it is easy to get caught up in it and it is not restricted to the poorer courses, location plays a big part. I know of a top 100 course that wont be around in 4 or 5 years unless they can turn things around, sadly they are doing £15 deals and that will probably seal their fate.

[Niall C]

Adrian

I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that there is an over supply of golf courses. There may be a number of clubs/courses that aren't balancing the books at present but they are still being played and enjoyed by an awful lot of people. Instead of finding 10% new members, what if those clubs reduced their overheads to a sum equating to the subs of 10% of members such that they broke even again ? After all, the average golf course has a lot more rounds on an anual basis than it did going back 30/40 years and no one said there was too many courses then.

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian

I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that there is an over supply of golf courses. There may be a number of clubs/courses that aren't balancing the books at present but they are still being played and enjoyed by an awful lot of people. Instead of finding 10% new members, what if those clubs reduced their overheads to a sum equating to the subs of 10% of members such that they broke even again ? After all, the average golf course has a lot more rounds on an anual basis than it did going back 30/40 years and no one said there was too many courses then.

Niall

Niall - I can only talk as I find and our total rounds are actually up. We had a good year this year weather wise although my members rounds are up, my visitor rounds are down. We have plenty of space midweek on our main course and I could 4 fold the traffic on our newer Stranahan course. I could take another 200 members, so thats how far short I am, probably £200,000. We are just doing our annual figures now and we made a profit though not much. Most clubs around me say they want 50 more members, that is £40,000 they need or as you say they could cut costs....which is what they are doing already and many clubs have cut back on admin, perhaps lost a member of the greenstaff , its the next round that could be difficult. I think the thinking is that if a club folds then 500 members equals 50 new members to the 10 surrounding clubs and you have 10 happy clubs rather than 11 unhappy ones.

It costs a lot more to run golf courses now than yesterdays the compliance situation is crazy, energy costs, fuel are all things that have risen sharply above normal inflation and big components of golf club expenditure. Chemicals, the cost of sand with aggregate tax and fertilisers are many fold the 1980s costs.

I think that whilst more people play golf many that do dont play that much.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I'm a bit puzzled by the assumption that if a club fails then that means one less golf course.

Far more likely is that the course is bought from either the bank or the liquidator at little more than agricultural land prices and relaunched either as a new club or as a business. A few urban courses may get planning permission for housing but the vast majority will remain golf courses and probably thrive because the debt burden will have been lifted.

In fact, any club struggling with insurmountable debt would be well advised to look into a pre-pack deal via an insolvency practitioner.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I'm a bit puzzled by the assumption that if a club fails then that means one less golf course.

Far more likely is that the course is bought from either the bank or the liquidator at little more than agricultural land prices and relaunched either as a new club or as a business. A few urban courses may get planning permission for housing but the vast majority will remain golf courses and probably thrive because the debt burden will have been lifted.

In fact, any club struggling with insurmountable debt would be well advised to look into a pre-pack deal via an insolvency practitioner.

Duncan - I think it has got to the stage that the land is worth more as agricultural land now, so a typical 150 acres is worth £1/m Perhaps a few buildings are worth a few hundred thousand too. Agricultural land has tripled in the fast seven or so years, it is one of the reasons why its less likely there will be more golf courses in the UK.

There are probably not many courses left with a lot of debt. Go back 10 years and some banks stupidly lent £3 or £4M into projects. Any that go from now certainly have a strong chance of not staying a golf course, but if it stays a golf course it is not really folding anyway. Its just an owner change.

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