Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development

[JC Jones]

There is also a lot of gambling in the area so enough golf, enough wealthy golfers, more gambling developments, guys start bringing their wives along, more people start coming (just using that as an example, I could be way off) then we have a seaside golfing Vegas meka or just golfing meka (which it already is of course).

I'll reserve judgment on the proposed course, but the quote above is not an appealing vision for the future of the Oregon coast (in my opinion).  The non-commercialization of the coast, in contrast to somewhere like California, is one of the best things about the Oregon coast and, as much as I love golf, there is more to life than golf and, as difficult as it is to comprehend, not everyone plays it.  It is possible to have too much of a good thing, even with respect to golf courses. 

Agreed.  A seaside golfing vegas in Oregon sounds dreadful.

[Jud_T]

  How long of a trip do you think you'd need to fit this in if it isn't a world-beater?.  

I love how the assumption is that because it is not C&C or Doak that it WONT be a world-beater.  Streamsong opens in the middle of the most saturated golf market in America and we are all foaming at the mouth to get down there.  Take away the C&C and Doak name and all of a sudden the course a) wont be a world-beater and b) shouldnt be built because it doesnt make sense economically.

I don't assume it's not going to be a world-beater just because it isn't one of the 2 big names, hence the word "IF".  The bar is getting pretty high even for them to build a top 25 Modern.  I believe there are people who aren't satisfied with Streamsong's rankings.  It's simply that the odds are somewhat long and all your ducks need to be in a row for it to happen.  Of course if it is absolutely first rate then we'll all have to make time for it, and having a great piece of property is a very good starting point, but a starting point is all it is.  As it stands, Bandon has 2 courses in the top 5 Modern on Golfweek.  That's the bar to make it an absolute must play on a trip to Bandon Dunes which is pretty damned high for Doak, C&C, any ODG you can name or David Esler.  I would love for it to be in that company, make the area even more attractive and Esler to get his due, I just don't think that's an even money bet going in sight unseen.

[JC Jones]

  How long of a trip do you think you'd need to fit this in if it isn't a world-beater?.  

I love how the assumption is that because it is not C&C or Doak that it WONT be a world-beater.  Streamsong opens in the middle of the most saturated golf market in America and we are all foaming at the mouth to get down there.  Take away the C&C and Doak name and all of a sudden the course a) wont be a world-beater and b) shouldnt be built because it doesnt make sense economically.

I don't assume it's not going to be a world-beater just because it isn't one of the 2 big names, hence the word "IF".  The bar is getting pretty high even for them to build a top 25 Modern.  I believe there are people who aren't satisfied with Streamsong's rankings.  It's simply that the odds are somewhat long and all your ducks need to be in a row for it to happen.  Of course if it is absolutely first rate then we'll all have to make time for it, and having a great piece of property is a very good starting point, but a starting point is all it is.  As it stands, Bandon has 2 courses in the top 5 Modern on Golfweek.  That's the bar to make it an absolute must play on a trip to Bandon Dunes which is pretty damned high for Doak, C&C, any ODG you can name or David Esler.  I would love for it to be in that company, make the area even more attractive and Esler to get his due, I just don't think that's an even money bet going in sight unseen.

I don't disagree with anything you just said.  My point is more about GCA.com reception.  And that you're a buttboy 

[Shane Wright]

GCAers, few clarifications based on what I've been able to learn from sources close to the new Pacific Gales project:

This project, just north of Port Orford and south of the Cape Blanco lighthouse (which can be seen from the golf site) is not affiliated in any way with the previous "Gailes" development which was floated back in 2003 and never got off the ground much farther north up the coast near Tillamook. Also not affiliated with the current Dye project Crook Point, which is farther south of Port Orford and apparently has a much larger footprint (full resort, equestrian center, etc) that has hindered approval.

There's a good story in the local Coos Bay World newspaper today that talks more about the permitting expectations and why the Pacific Gales team believe the process will hopefully go smoothly. You can read the story here:
http://theworldlink.com/news/local/golf-s-next-ace/article_ad71fb92-5202-11e3-be51-0019bb2963f4.html

[David_Tepper]

I wonder what percentage of the golfers visiting Bandon Dunes (excluding the GCA-ers) neither know nor care who designed the various courses there.

[David Davis]

There is also a lot of gambling in the area so enough golf, enough wealthy golfers, more gambling developments, guys start bringing their wives along, more people start coming (just using that as an example, I could be way off) then we have a seaside golfing Vegas meka or just golfing meka (which it already is of course).

I'll reserve judgment on the proposed course, but the quote above is not an appealing vision for the future of the Oregon coast (in my opinion).  The non-commercialization of the coast, in contrast to somewhere like California, is one of the best things about the Oregon coast and, as much as I love golf, there is more to life than golf and, as difficult as it is to comprehend, not everyone plays it.  It is possible to have too much of a good thing, even with respect to golf courses. 

Agreed.  A seaside golfing vegas in Oregon sounds dreadful.

Ah I get it gents. What if I rephrase it like this?

There is also a lot of gambling and gentlemen's clubs in the area so enough golf, enough wealthy golfers, more gambling developments and gentlemen's clubs more people start coming (just using that as an example, I could be way off) then we have a seaside golfing Vegas meka or just golfing meka (which it already is of course).

BTW. I hate Vegas for the record, I love Oregon and I don't gamble but the concern I was reacting to was not enough people.

[William_G]

I wonder what percentage of the golfers visiting Bandon Dunes (excluding the GCA-ers) neither know nor care who designed the various courses there.

LOL, so true! you either like it or not regardless of the signature at the bottom of the painting

BTW, this "announcement"  etc... timing is somewhat suspect with Bandon Muni being voted on today...

[Dan Kelly]

...gentlemen's clubs...

That's either the euphemism of the century (so far) or the oxymoron of the century (so far) ... or both!

[David Davis]

...gentlemen's clubs...

That's either the euphemism of the century (so far) or the oxymoron of the century (so far) ... or both!

You're right I shouldn't give those innocent Southern Oregonians, ie basically Northern Californians any ideas now should I. Before we know it it will look just like Florida or Nevada there and I'll get the blame only due to the fact that there was some wealthy casino owners (aka Gentleman's Club owners or both) lurking on GCA.

[Howard Riefs]

Shackelford toplines an article in the local Bandon paper about Pacific Gales as the project gets ready for permitting:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/12/27/pacific-gales-fueling-south-coast-golf-boom-in-greater-bando.html

[Dan Herrmann]

It'll be fascinating to see if they get permits.  IIRC, Bandon was green-lighted because it got rid of a lot of the gorse - an invasive plant that led to destructive fires.  The area down south doesn't have that problem, and other than Humbug Mountain, is a bit flatter.  I also think it's out of the coastal dunes are that goes up to the Nat'l Rec Area.

[Adam Lawrence]

Gorse rather than heather, I think, Dan.

[Pete_Pittock]

Shackelford toplines an article in the local Bandon paper about Pacific Gales as the project gets ready for permitting:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/12/27/pacific-gales-fueling-south-coast-golf-boom-in-greater-bando.html

If there is stormy (snowy) weather over the Siskiyous I might make the 1/11 meeting

[Dan Herrmann]

Thanks, Adam - just updated m post.

[Joel_Stewart]

It'll be fascinating to see if they get permits.  

I heard that permitting was almost complete.  They have already started some light clearing.  I heard also they are still looking for additional funding.  

I know Jim Haley a little and wish him well.  He's putting his money and reputation to the ultimate test.  I hope he doesn't play it safe and tries to exceed all of the courses in Bandon because that's what it's going to take.  Same with the architect.  

Some interesting tidbits below,

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/11/prweb11355992.htm

[Terry Lavin]

Yep, they're out looking for investors, which should be rough sledding, IMHO.

[Lou_Duran]

Best wishes on this project.  Depending on the ground lease- which, if I was a betting man, I'd think it might be somewhere between nominal to reasonable, the ability of the MP to raise money, and the business plan for the course, it could very well be a homerun.  Bandon is fantastic, but I would like to see a bit of price competition in that market.  With Bandon's pricing umbrella, PG might have quite a bit of room to get going, particularly if it watches its pennies during construction and is able to compete as a low-cost producer.  I hope Mr. Haley and Don Mahaffey make contact.  I'll certainly drive the extra 30 miles to play the course.  The ancillary development potential shouldn't be underestimated- a hotel or two, restaurants, some housing.  And if it offers some memberships, might it spur a retirement community?

[Jud_T]

Lou,

Most folk who are going to Bandon aren't looking for a low cost option.  Folks who are aren't going to the middle of Nowhere, Oregon to find it.  So the real road to success is to build one of the best courses in the world.  Bandon has 4 of the best courses built in our lifetime.  Even if they can pull it off it's going to have to be pretty spectacular or end up having some type of tie in with the resort to pry lazy middle aged guys away from their replay rounds and massages at the resort.  I hope it's a success, I just don't understand the business plan.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Lou,
I have spent an evening with Jim and I like what he has planned for Pacific Gales.
I don't think he needs my help, but I wish him well as it sounds very much like a golf course I'd like to visit.
I like Bandon a lot, but give me great golf and less of a corporate feel, and I'll be there as well, and that is what PG sounds like to me.

I have a feeling PG will be a lot different then Bandon Resort and that will be attractive to some people.

[William_G]

Sounds like the team is in place and Troy knows the area as well as anybody.

Love Links Golf

[Garland Bayley]

I wonder what percentage of the golfers visiting Bandon Dunes (excluding the GCA-ers) neither know nor care who designed the various courses there.

Likewise would anyone have any idea who David Kidd was with out the old real estate maxim of LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. Only a tiny percentage of the world knows who did the courses at Bandon Dunes. They do know that there are four courses in a spectacular section of the world that people love playing, in part because of the location. IMO, you put reasonable courses in such a location and people will come, because of LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. Sure beats going to Arizona.

[Terry Lavin]

Lou,
I have spent an evening with Jim and I like what he has planned for Pacific Gales.
I don't think he needs my help, but I wish him well as it sounds very much like a golf course I'd like to visit.
I like Bandon a lot, but give me great golf and less of a corporate feel, and I'll be there as well, and that is what PG sounds like to me.

I have a feeling PG will be a lot different then Bandon Resort and that will be attractive to some people.

Well articulated, but I'll take issue with the corporate feel comment. The culture at Bandon is democratic (small "d"), with everybody paying his own way, including Mike Keiser and Arnold Palmer. Mike doesn't have an owner's suite; he stays in a regular room.  He introduces himself as Mike, not Mr. Keiser. This attitude percolates down and the overall employee vibe is very chill, not corporate. It is run and organized by a corporation, but it has a small town feel. Pebble Beach, on the other hand, is the quintessential corporate feel resort. Very off putting.

[William_G]

Lou,
I have spent an evening with Jim and I like what he has planned for Pacific Gales.
I don't think he needs my help, but I wish him well as it sounds very much like a golf course I'd like to visit.
I like Bandon a lot, but give me great golf and less of a corporate feel, and I'll be there as well, and that is what PG sounds like to me.

I have a feeling PG will be a lot different then Bandon Resort and that will be attractive to some people.

Well articulated, but I'll take issue with the corporate feel comment. The culture at Bandon is democratic (small "d"), with everybody paying his own way, including Mike Keiser and Arnold Palmer. Mike doesn't have an owner's suite; he stays in a regular room.  He introduces himself as Mike, not Mr. Keiser. This attitude percolates down and the overall employee vibe is very chill, not corporate. It is run and organized by a corporation, but it has a small town feel. Pebble Beach, on the other hand, is the quintessential corporate feel resort. Very off putting.

Not to pile on, but +1

at BDGR McKee and Keiser, as well as Josh Lesnik, did so well in setting the stage that you don't the get any feeling that there is a invisible puppeteer(corporation) pulling the strings on the long time employees such as Shoe or Tom Jefferson. These are very genuine follks, which is merely a reflection of those who set the stage.
The feeling you do have is "golf as it was meant to be", which is very cool.
Love Bandon

[Morgan Clawson]

My gut tells me this place will be successful if they:

1) Have carts.

2) Build a very good course. It doesn't have to be as good as the Bandon Dunes courses, just close.

There has to be a lot of Bandon Dunes visitors who would welcome a day off from walking during a 3+ day trip.

[William_G]

My gut tells me this place will be successful if they:

1) Have carts.

2) Build a very good course. It doesn't have to be as good as the Bandon Dunes courses, just close.

There has to be a lot of Bandon Dunes visitors who would welcome a day off from walking during a 3+ day trip.

since it's going to be al fescue, cart can't be part of the equation.

the bar is set high, as many, including Ben Crenshaw say they "can't imagine the world without Bandon Dunes".