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Don_Mahaffey

Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2013, 10:55:54 AM »
Geez...say one thing that isn't 110% pro Bandon and they come out.
I said PG would have less of a corporate feel...not one negative word about Bandon resort, which I happen to visit as often as time and $$$ allow.
But, it still is a big resort with multiple lodging and food options, lots of employees, and 4 golf courses.
A stand alone course with a single food option, a few cabins, and no shuttles running around is going to feel less corporate to me.

I hope PG turns out to be a lot like some of the smaller UK clubs that you might visit as an American golf tourist. Turnberry, St. Andrews, Carnoustie, are all must see places when you visit the UK, but IMO, so is Western Gails, and WG is a lot different feel then all those other big names....and I like that.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2013, 11:07:55 AM »
Jud, you're right that people going to Bandon aren't looking for a low cost option. I do think, though, that they're looking for value. You've alluded to as much in your posts about why you prefer it over other resorts like Pebble and Pinehurst. None of them are cheap, but I know you think you get more for your money at Bandon.

To Lou's point, anything that increases the supply of destination golf while cutting into Bandon's demand has the potential to lower costs, or at least keep them from rising. Time will tell if this new development comes to fruition and if it appeals to the same market that would otherwise have considered Bandon, but if nothing else it certainly has potential.

I agree with Morgan totally, and I don't believe fescue eliminates carts as an option. I've played four fescue courses that allow carts, and I don't anticipate any coastal Oregon resort course doing a ridiculously stressful number of rounds (in fact, the fescue courses I've played that allow carts are unfailingly in better condition than the two I've played that don't). I talk to golfers all the time who would love to go to Bandon if they just allowed wheels, even if relegated to paths only. Carts may not be popular here, but they're absolutely popular with the general golfing market and I would be surprised if another walking-only resort gets opened 30 minutes south of Bandon. The terrain may be similar, but the business model needs to be different.

I don't know whether the Pacific Gales project will work financially or not. I don't know whether it will be completed, or whether the courses will be any good. I also don't know if it will benefit its local community or not. But I do know that it can only be a good thing for people who love great golf courses... you know, assuming that they don't accidentally blow up a cliff during construction or something like that and make seaside golf construction a total thing of the past.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2013, 11:21:40 AM »
My gut tells me this place will be successful if they:

1) Have carts.

2) Build a very good course. It doesn't have to be as good as the Bandon Dunes courses, just close.

There has to be a lot of Bandon Dunes visitors who would welcome a day off from walking during a 3+ day trip.


I don't see the carts as an issue.  If it has carts or doesn't will not influence me.  

The course has to be great and exceed expectations.  Bandon Crossing is an example of Bandon light and although I don't know how its doing financially, its not on anybody's radar.  I haven't taken the time to go over there and even explore it.

Its like going to Pebble Beach, any of the courses by the Pebble Beach company are great for the masses but if you have the opportunity to play Cypress Point, you'll drop the Pebble Beach courses in a heartbeat.  Pacific Gales has to differentiate itself with a great environment and different experience.  

If I have a tee time at any of the Bandon courses, what would entice me to give it up and drive an hour south to play Pacific Gales?  Saving $30 would not.  If it was $100 maybe?  

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2013, 11:37:43 AM »
Geez...say one thing that isn't 110% pro Bandon and they come out.
I said PG would have less of a corporate feel...not one negative word about Bandon resort, which I happen to visit as often as time and $$$ allow.
But, it still is a big resort with multiple lodging and food options, lots of employees, and 4 golf courses.
A stand alone course with a single food option, a few cabins, and no shuttles running around is going to feel less corporate to me.

I hope PG turns out to be a lot like some of the smaller UK clubs that you might visit as an American golf tourist. Turnberry, St. Andrews, Carnoustie, are all must see places when you visit the UK, but IMO, so is Western Gails, and WG is a lot different feel then all those other big names....and I like that.

I didn't view what you said as a criticism and I wasn't being critical of you.  There's no question that Mike Keiser is a corporate guy; he made his fortune running a corporation and Bandon Dunes runs like a corporate clock in many ways, but it just doesn't have a corporate feel to me.  Had it stopped at one course and remained a small destination resort, it might feel more homey and UK like, but it's nice to have the other options, IMHO.  Part of the Bandon magic, as others have repeatedly noted, stems from the walking only nature of the resort.  It keeps away a large group of the fat-ass jackass population that runs roughshod over places like Pebble Beach.  The fact that it's in Oregon probably helps, so maybe PG can capture some of the same vibe and do it at a smaller scale operation.  That would be a nice alternative for many.  The more, the merrier!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2013, 11:38:27 AM »
Its like going to Pebble Beach, any of the courses by the Pebble Beach company are great for the masses but if you have the opportunity to play Cypress Point, you'll drop the Pebble Beach courses in a heartbeat.  Pacific Gales has to differentiate itself with a great environment and different experience.  

Yeah, and if Pacific Gales ends up being a very exclusive private course that is one of the world's five best courses by consensus, you'll drop your tee times at Bandon in a heartbeat too.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2013, 11:49:52 AM »
Geez...say one thing that isn't 110% pro Bandon and they come out.
I said PG would have less of a corporate feel...not one negative word about Bandon resort, which I happen to visit as often as time and $$$ allow.
But, it still is a big resort with multiple lodging and food options, lots of employees, and 4 golf courses.
A stand alone course with a single food option, a few cabins, and no shuttles running around is going to feel less corporate to me.

I hope PG turns out to be a lot like some of the smaller UK clubs that you might visit as an American golf tourist. Turnberry, St. Andrews, Carnoustie, are all must see places when you visit the UK, but IMO, so is Western Gails, and WG is a lot different feel then all those other big names....and I like that.

Don,

If the course can match Western Gailes it will be well worth a visit. Tough standard to meet but such a course would be welcome, especially for locals I would think.
Tim Weiman

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2013, 11:50:10 AM »
So true Jason, the smaller scale private feel is I think what Don was talking about.

Still hope that carts can't be part of the equation despite what you say...

FWIW, the site of PG could be less windy than Bandon in the summer due to it's being south and inland a bit from Cape Blanco.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 10:29:15 AM by William_G »
It's all about the golf!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2013, 11:59:29 AM »
???
... Bandon Crossing is an example of Bandon light and although I don't know how its doing financially, its not on anybody's radar.  ...
 ???

Bandon Crossing is not a links on the coast. I don't understand why you even bothered to post this.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2013, 01:04:15 PM »
Lou,

Most folk who are going to Bandon aren't looking for a low cost option.  Folks who are aren't going to the middle of Nowhere, Oregon to find it.  So the real road to success is to build one of the best courses in the world.  Bandon has 4 of the best courses built in our lifetime.  Even if they can pull it off it's going to have to be pretty spectacular or end up having some type of tie in with the resort to pry lazy middle aged guys away from their replay rounds and massages at the resort.  I hope it's a success, I just don't understand the business plan.

Jud- It appears that we travel in different circles.  I've been to Bandon three times in different months before the summer, primarily to avoid the high season premium prices.  The weather ranged from passable to terrible each time (during my last visit, my partner demonstrated the ancient function of a natural bunker as we hunkered down by BD's 17th green to partially escape a ferocious sleet storm); the golf (not necessarily course conditions) always sublime.

Like some others, I've talked to a fairly good number of travelers to Bandon outside of this august group (GCA.com) and the vast majority look fondly upon the experience as a "once-in-a-lifetime".  When I ask why- I know a lot of fair weather golfers, so I expect Bandon's well-known foul weather to be one of the main objections- I am surprised to hear that cost and the walking policy are the two hugely major objections, with logistics a distant third.

For me it is an issue of value, and I am hardly alone- I've seen guys bring food to save on breakfast and lunch, and played with regional golfers who made their maiden voyage on two-day/one-night weekday package deals that knocked the costs down by over 50%.  Each time I go and spend $$$$ to play in foul weather and experience what for me is very spotty service (and I am not a high maintenance guy), I swear that "'I've been there and done that".  Of course, a year later, I am thinking that I need to get back for another couple times around each of the four world-class courses.  Get me on Pacific Gales for $100-$150 for a full day of golf, and I'm there, and at Bandon Dunes as well; maybe Crossings too.

Don M-

Your comments about Bandon Dunes resonate, as do your hopes PGales.  I've never met Mike Keiser, though I attended one of the "friends of Mike" Bandon Trails pre-opening outings and got the sense from some of the guys who do know him that there are very good reasons why he is so well thought off on this site.  His accomplishments at BD are truly extraordinary.

However, the resort, as you note, is quite large, very busy at times, and not without flaws.  Between clubs not arriving at the designated course for your tee time (and the starter getting exasperated that you're not on the tee, though the tee sheet is mostly empty behind you), marshals admonishing you to pick up the pace as you stand on the tee while the group in front of you is barely 100 yards from where he stands (and the players in front of them are still on the green), a waitress in near tears because the customer who has been waiting for the bill for quite sometime and is about to miss his tee time finally leaves (presumably assuming that they would eventually charge it to his room), and the inescapable logistical issues of a central practice/warm-up location, poor weather, and four starting holes widely dispersed, it can be quite hectic out there.  Corporate may not be the right word, but there is something to be said for the simplicity of one great course at one location sans all the supporting infrastructure on site.   I've played Black Sheep, and provided that they can raise the money and the site is as good as it sounds, my bet is that PGales will be a memorable course.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2013, 01:26:33 PM »
Lou,

I don't completely disagree.  I may well go off peak next time as much to avoid the strongest of the summer winds as for the off season prices.   Personally Bandon has 3 of my favorite courses.  Throw in the par 3 and the putting course and it's going to be very hard to tear me away from the resort unless I'm there for more than a week.  If the idea is to attempt to build a top ten modern course, I'm not sure how great of an investment pitch that is.  If it's to build another remote high end private, again not sure of the likelihood of success with a number of phenomenal venues already out there without full memberships.  And I say this as a fan of Esler.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 07:08:13 PM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2013, 02:58:00 PM »
just walked the beach from Cape Blanco state park to the mouth of the Elk River with our beach loving Lab.

this is almost below the PG site, which is private property on a bluff above the beach

definitely ideal golf weather 57 no wind, could be shorts if so inclined, definitely warm for 12/30/13

45 mins south of BDGR

could be fantastic if done right

Go Ducks
It's all about the golf!

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2013, 04:32:07 PM »
JIm Haley interview on Cybergolf

http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/jim_haley_talks_pacific_gales
 
     I was already planning on driving to California on Saturday 1/11 so it is a minor diversion to head over to the coast for the community meeting in Port Orford and check on grassing, soils, cart use, routing map, maintenance meld. Let me know any other pertinent questions

My incessant use of iwindsurf.com leads me to believe there will be little if any difference between Pacific Gales and BDGR as far as prevailing wind direction and intensity.

     While the name is nice, I think Pacific Gailes is close enough and with a golfing history.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 12:39:36 AM by Pete_Pittock »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2013, 05:14:39 PM »
Pete,

Do you remember if this is the same site Curry county wanted to sponsor building a course on a couple of years back in the hopes of getting a new revenue source to replace the loss of federal timber money?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2013, 05:26:15 PM »
Garland,
Pretty sure it is not. I think that was near the Sixes River, not Elk River. Also pretty sure Curry is the most economically depressed county in Oregon.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 06:57:45 PM by Pete_Pittock »

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2013, 06:51:18 PM »
Pete,
Hope to see you on the 11th, see if I make it....
iwindsurf is awesome, yet the micro climate just south of Blanco could be fantastic
It's all about the golf!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2013, 06:56:34 PM »
Garland,
Pretty sure it is not. I think that was near the Sixes River, not Elk River

Good memory Pete! Sixes River and Blacklock Point.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2013, 09:00:57 PM »
???
... Bandon Crossing is an example of Bandon light and although I don't know how its doing financially, its not on anybody's radar.  ...
 ???
Bandon Crossing is not a links on the coast. I don't understand why you even bothered to post this.

It's called proximity marketing and I was trying to draw an example of how Pacific Gales can attract customers away from Bandon.  Bandon Crossing is trying to attract these same clients.  The fact that it's not a links doesn't matter.  It's only 10 miles from the resort.  

If Pacific Gales doesn't build something equal or better then the courses at Bandon Dunes it will languish like Bandon Crossing.  

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2013, 12:02:31 AM »
So you haven't taken time to even stop by and look around, and you have no idea about their financial situation, but you've decided that Bandon Crossings is "languishing"?



Pete, keep us posted on what you learn. It's definitely an exciting project, whether it turns out to be a world class destination or not.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2013, 01:10:23 AM »
???
... Bandon Crossing is an example of Bandon light and although I don't know how its doing financially, its not on anybody's radar.  ...
 ???
Bandon Crossing is not a links on the coast. I don't understand why you even bothered to post this.

It's called proximity marketing and I was trying to draw an example of how Pacific Gales can attract customers away from Bandon.  Bandon Crossing is trying to attract these same clients.  The fact that it's not a links doesn't matter.  It's only 10 miles from the resort.  

If Pacific Gales doesn't build something equal or better then the courses at Bandon Dunes it will languish like Bandon Crossing.  

I think that's just Balderdash, but then that's me.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2014, 10:37:41 PM »
On Friday I'm driving down to their public information set forn Saturday in Port Orford. Ugly weather is in the foreceast, so no golf, just high winds, rain and surf.

 If there are questions for which you would like answers, please IM them to me.  

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2014, 06:08:25 AM »
On Friday I'm driving down to their public information set forn Saturday in Port Orford. Ugly weather is in the foreceast, so no golf, just high winds, rain and surf.

 If there are questions for which you would like answers, please IM them to me.  

Pete,
When and where is it? I may meet you there.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2014, 10:32:49 AM »
Connor,

"Before the Curry County Planning Commission hearing, Russell said the developers will hold two public open houses in Port Orford to answer questions from people who want to learn more. The meetings are set for Saturday, Jan. 11, 1-4 p.m., and Wednesday, Jan. 22, 4-7 p.m., both in the American Legion Hall in Port Orford on 11th Street."
It's all about the golf!

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2014, 12:17:37 PM »
I'm not sure why everyone seems to think customers for PG will have to come from the Bandon resort. Spending a week at the Bandon resort will cost me at least $3000 (excluding airfare). If PG can do it for $1000 and provide a links course of decent quality, I can see people asking: "Why bother driving up to Bandon, when I have everything down here for a third of the price?"

Of course, if it's not substantially cheaper, then it needs to be substantially better than Bandon - but I don't think that is realistically possible.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposι (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2014, 12:26:03 PM »
Oops, I'm sorry, strike everything I wrote. I just found out they are not a resort, just a golf course!

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposι (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pacific Gales – NEW Oregon Pacific Coast Golf Course Development
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2014, 12:40:04 PM »
Oops, I'm sorry, strike everything I wrote. I just found out they are not a resort, just a golf course!

Ulrich

yes, they want to have people stay in Port Orford

so it's not going to be a small scale retreat but a smaller scale golf course with carts available

look forward to hear if Pete or Connor made it down for that meeting, I was busy attending a preview day with my son
It's all about the golf!