[Jason Thurman]

A few current threads have made mention of changing tastes in the market that purchases golf club memberships. I want to find out whether or not these changing tastes are real or just perception, and if they are real, is there a divide along age or geographic or socioeconomic lines.

Here's what I'd like this thread to informally survey. Feel free to answer as vaguely or in as much detail as you feel comfortable providing:

1. How old are you, and where do you live? If you're comfortable discussing your socioeconomic status feel free to include that as well, but don't feel compelled to do so.

2. Talk a bit about what your current ideal club would look like, considering your practical needs like cost, schedule, and other life priorities. What kind of policies would it have? What costs are you happy to pay, and which costs do you want to skip? What social elements do you want? What other recreational options should it have?

This is not a "pie in the sky" discussion. For instance, I would love to be a member at a Top 5 course, but the costs associated and policies of many make them completely impractical at the current time. My ideal club currently is much more affordable and much more accessible. Keep it practical. However, feel free to also discuss what you might be willing to consider in the future should financial circumstances and changing priorities allow.

[Jason Thurman]

To answer my own questions:

I'm in my late 20s and live in the middle of a major Midwestern city. I'm married and we're a dual income family with no children and no plans to add any. We make pretty decent cash for a young couple, which allows me to indulge my golf habit. My wife couldn't possibly care less about golf though.

As a result of all this, my ideal club would be more of a golf club than a country club. I currently belong to a country club that I love, but my wife has only been inside the clubhouse once for a quick lunch in the year that we've belonged. I enjoy having a post-round drink with my buddies, but I would happily consider a club that didn't have substantial dining options. I also have no interest in swimming, and anyone who has seen my wife's hair knows that she's not getting anywhere near a pool either...

A pure golf club would be great for me, and I would even consider joining a men's only club as long as it freely allowed women as guests, since I like golfing with my mother and other female family and friends. I need a decent practice facility, and the course needs to be one that I like. I'm not willing to deal with tee time restrictions. The membership needs to be diverse and welcoming. I don't need caddies, but I'm okay with them as long as it's a scholarship program and I can still choose to carry my own bag. And it has to be affordable enough that I don't feel like I'm throwing money away over just playing local publics.

A golf club for me is a convenience. It's nice to be able to play when I want and practice when I want. If I can't do those things, I'm not interested. I like being able to host friends. In fact, that might be my favorite thing about it, so I need all of my friends to be welcome and I need pretty relaxed guest policies. And my current arrangement probably saves me money over playing publics, so that's nice too. I don't need it to save me money, but it needs to be affordable enough to justify easily.

[mike_malone]

The only thing I want in a club is an ethic which promotes members playing together on a fun course. This would require a modest clubhouse and limited food . I also think members should be educated about the benefits of a rough look to the place. Courses need less conditioning and members need more .
The only question for the club is " how do we make the golf more fun?"

Golf should be much cheaper at clubs.

[Jason Topp]

47 Years old, kids are a junior in high school and a freshman in college (age of kids is more important than age of member in my experience)

Preferences in rough order.  1-7 are pretty much requirements.  The remainder are preferences.

1.  Great membership that is focused on golf and not other stuff
2.  Good financial health - any threat of assessments or looming debts is clearly understood and the plan to address them is sound.
3.  Good golf course
4.  Good to great practice facility
5.  Ample tee time availability and quick pace of play (otherwise I would play public courses)
6.  Close to home
7.  Understandable financial obligations - you know what you are signing up for when you do so.  The simpler the better - preferably one charge for the year.
8.  Not committee run
9.  Golf only with small kitchen (would never have joined it when kids were younger without pool and other things for them to do)
10.  Informal atmosphere (If I walk into a place and my mind utters the term "Buy Bushwood?!" it is a sign)

    

[John Kavanaugh]

I want a bunch of people who I have never met and rarely play subsidizing my dues so I can play whenever I want as fast or slow as I choose.  Few people respect how many non golfing members it takes to keep a golf only club going.

[Steve Kline]

I'm 38. Married with one kid that is 13. I'm the only in the family that plays golf. I own my own business (4th generation family owned). I travel a lot but my schedule is very flexible, particularly from May to September.

My ideal club is:

1. close to home and work (my office is 10 minutes from my house)
2. has no tee times
3. allows me to walk and carry my bag whenever I want
4. at least has no food minimum but preferably has just a small kitchen for burgers, sandwiches, and beer
5. has an architecturally interesting course with fun greens
6. is maintained firm and fast with a membership that understands that
7. has a regular, well attended scratch game
8. has no initiation fee and is well run so that assessments are unlikely
9. no pool and definitely no tennis courts
10. good practice facility

Basically I want a golf club. Nobody serves that market in my city as far as I know.

[Dan Kelly]

1-7 are pretty much requirements.

1.  Great membership that is focused on golf and not other stuff
2.  Good financial health - any threat of assessments or looming debts is clearly understood and the plan to address them is sound.
3.  Good golf course
4.  Good to great practice facility
5.  Ample tee time availability and quick pace of play (otherwise I would play public courses)
6.  Close to home
7.  Understandable financial obligations - you know what you are signing up for when you do so.  The simpler the better - preferably one charge for the year.
    

I (60 years old; live in the Minneapolis suburbs, work in downtown St. Paul; club -- first of my life -- is halfway between home and work, and convenient to both) like Jason's 1-7 list, though I'd move 3 and 4 up to 1 and 2. And I'd add "Thoughtful management of the course and the club" to the list, possibly at #3. A good pro and a good superintendent and a good general manager seem essential to me, after my first year at this club. (We have all three.)

It's called a "country club," but it's not. It's a golf club, with dining for members and a well-run catering and meetings business.

I wouldn't object to the club's adding other facilities (tennis, platform tennis, swimming, etc.) if it would be financially prudent to do so, but am in no need of those other facilities. (Actually, I might need platform tennis, to keep me moving during the long winter.)

One additional factor for me: My 22-year-old daughter is an excellent golfer, with whom I often play, and I thought about her before joining. I knew she'd love the course, which she'd never played -- but it was important to me that she could take advantage of my membership, affordably. And she can.

[Jud_T]

What does my current ideal club look like?; Kingsley.  Now I just need to move closer...I used to belong to another golf only club closer to home.  I would be loathe to join a "Country Club" unless the course was so good, the finances didn't matter and the other area options were significantly worse.  My preference is no tee times, no restrictions, really fun course with proper conditioning emphasis that will likely stand up to hundreds of rounds without losing interest, casual vibe, money spent almost exclusively on golf.  I'm happy with a cooler of beer and sandwiches.  Low a$$hole ratio.  Fun membership who likes to have a few beers and gamble on golf.  Stuffiness is a huge turnoff in almost anything at this point in my life.  So is self importance, in clubs or members.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jud,

Move closer to Kingsley don't move Kingsley closer to you.

[John McCarthy]

I'm 45, married, 2 young kids and I live in Chicago.  

Black Sheep would be a perfect club were it closer and co-ed.  No kitchen, no ticky-tack fees, no pool, no tee times.  Just golf and a bartender.    I was conspiring a year ago about leaving the city but that is not happening now because events have overtaken us.  So I wonder if I am ever going to join a club.

[Sean_A]

1. How old are you, and where do you live? If you're comfortable discussing your socioeconomic status feel free to include that as well, but don't feel compelled to do so.

50, married, live in England, daughter in last year of A levels.  

2. Talk a bit about what your current ideal club would look like, considering your practical needs like cost, schedule, and other life priorities. What kind of policies would it have? What costs are you happy to pay, and which costs do you want to skip? What social elements do you want? What other recreational options should it have?

1. Good to great course in good nick that I can walk.
2. Cheap dues, under £1000pa. Happy to take visitors to keep dues down.
3. Basic food with opportunity for dinner when matches/events take place.
4. Weekly competitions and throw-ups (don't wanna bring a game to the club every week)
5. Decent, modest clubhouse
6. Informal and not necessarily a golfy vibe
7. Club on sound financial ground


This is not a "pie in the sky" discussion. For instance, I would love to be a member at a Top 5 course, but the costs associated and policies of many make them completely impractical at the current time. My ideal club currently is much more affordable and much more accessible. Keep it practical. However, feel free to also discuss what you might be willing to consider in the future should financial circumstances and changing priorities allow.

I don't envision ever chasing membership to top course.  If it comes easy and is affordable, fair enough, but its not a goal.

Ciao

[Adam Warren]

Not really a lot to add to this at this point as most have struck things pretty well.  On this board, I think it is pretty likely most will prefer a "golf-centric" club with a quality course.  I think that is a given.

Having a wife and a 7 year old girl, I may be one of the few that feels a pool may be important at this point in time.  

Also, I would like to see some sort of junior program, which I believe some may be overlooking as important.  In this day and time, when memberships are down, it is partially because the older generation who grew up on country clubs are dying off and not really being replaced by the young golfer.  In order to keep our clubs and courses going, the younger generation (of not just high level golfers) needs to continue to be cultivated.  

Due to my current and future family composition, I guess I might be a little more interested in the "country club" atmosphere to give them things to do in order for my golfing addiction to be more feasible to them.  I guess that is part of why I decided to be on the board at my club, because we are kind of in line with what everyone else here is saying they want.  We have a fun golf course, that has a regular game with good players.  Everything is geared to the golf side.  We have a small kitchen that makes sandwiches, burgers, dogs, chicken, etc and an excellent cook on the outside grill as well.  Things are mostly pretty inexpensive out there.  It is semi-private so tee times are a necessity, but I wouldnt call it difficult at all for members to get tee times.  

Perhaps the main thing we lack that might be nice is a strong practice facility.  We have a small range and putting green, but they mostly get the job done for me.  I'm more a guy that practices on the course by myself, so its not a major deal to me.

Now left to my own devices I think the perfect club for me within reason of where I live would be the University Club on the outskirts of Lexington, Ky.  If I lived closer to there, it would be perfect for many of us on this board.  It is a golf only club with a small kitchen and bar.  No pool or tennis.  They are the home of the UK golf teams, so they have excellent practice facilities and 36 very good holes of golf, to give plenty of variety and options.  I believe they are pretty fairly priced as well for memberships.  At one time, they had 18 holes that was open to all and 18 holes reserved for member only play.  This also makes for a great way to accept outside outings on any day to make that extra cash, but still be accessible for members. They seem to have the perfect model for the golf only member.  

[RJ_Daley]

Being retired on modest pension income, I'd be interested in a golf only club with no expense like pool and tennis or other recreation (possible exception of modest cost things like bocce courts or allow X-country winter sking within roped off, away from green areas).  I'd want there to be a comfortable grill room, with modest menu of tried and true favorites for chow and drinks.  No need for banquet facilities, maybe just a plain back room members can use-rent for b-day parties and small events. Kitchen needs to only be good enough for modest catering for smallish events.  

I wouldn't mind a modest initiation membership fee (under 10K) but with some feature of some reasonable portion of that being refundable when one needs to leave the club.  Is should have some element of buy back, if another applicant is in the wings wanting membership and approved.

There shouldn't be any minimums, due to modest F&B operation.  That should be able to stand on its own.  And, the yearly dues should work out to about $20-30 on a base of about 50 rounds played a year ($1500 max)

No question that the course needs to be a fair and interesting designed course with variety of hole distances and terrain contour yet totally walkable and walker oriented.  Greens must be reasonably contoured.  Bunkers need to be well placed, but not numerous.  Yes, firm and fast as weather permits.  Maybe a target goal of not more than 20-25,000 rounds a year so that tee time are not hard to make a day or two in advance or relatively easy walk-on. And, a decent practice green and some manner of driving range.  

There has to be a pro that facilitates and encourages member leagues and groups.  And a liberal guest policy and fees no greater than the 20-30 a round target built into membership fees.  

Then there are well run privately owned and municipally owned facilities that offer reasonably priced yearly passes, have good F&B, run active and enthusiastic leagues, and have wonderful courses. I like that as the alternative to the private club membership. Some that come to mind are Southern Pines Elks club, my home course Brown County GC, Keller in St Paul should reform as such, Wild Horse, and plenty more gems we have spoken of many times here.  

I don't see myself going for a national membership and only travelling there occasionally.  If I'm going to be a member, I'm going to use it on a regular basis.  

[Keith OHalloran]

I agree with most of what has been written. I would add that I would want my Golf Club either owned, or run by an individual with ideals that were in line with what I was looking for. It is nice to have committees and to seem like a democracy, but the bottom line, you need to find a course that has a strong leader to keep it going in the right direction.

[BCowan]

I am 33, have a GF and live in Ann Arbor,MI  middle class income

    My ideal club is the one I play out of with few changes.  

    1.  750 Individual Members all paying same amount $1700 a year, kids of members over age of 12 pay $500! ( i started caddying at 12)
    2.  that includes range and locker
    3.   Mondays would be reserved to outings and or open to public after 10AM (want unconnected folks able to play at my club)
    4.  I would make the course walking only, if unable to walk there are 99.9% of the other courses allow carts (no one bigger than game of golf)
    5.  It would have a small clubhouse that was warm and i could get burger and craft after!  (my club currently doesn't use clubhouse to serve food)
    7.  Weekends would have lottery tee times so same joe's don't have same times!
    8.   No weddings, no pool, no big overpaid staff.  
    9.  to people saying this model doesn't work, my club has a 3-5 year waiting list!  Obviously the golf course has to be good and you have to have a population of 100k or more people living within 30 miles of the club to make it feasible.  
   10.  If clubhouse is losing money in cold months close it down or limit it's time open.  
   11.  Course would play firm and fast, greens would get plenty of sunlight.

[Dan_Callahan]

I'm 43 with 3 kids.

My ideal club would be golf only, with a hot dog stand for food and a small pro shop for gear/supplies and shelter in a thunderstorm.

I am currently a member at a private country club north of Boston. I am giving up my membership at the end of the year. It is a very nice club with a course I enjoy. However, I've never used the tennis courts. My kids and I have been to the pool four times. I've eaten lunch/dinner about 10 times (thankfully there is no food minimum). And I've never been all that interested in the social events they offer like wine tasting and holiday meals. I know there are folks there who love all that stuff, and it really is a perfect place for them. But it doesn't make sense for me.

Sadly, there aren't a whole lot of options that would fit the "golf only" model in my area. The closest I know of is Baker Hill in NH, but that's too far away.

[Thomas Dai]

1. Good to great course in good nick that I can walk.
2. Cheap dues, under £1000pa. Happy to take visitors to keep dues down.
3. Basic food with opportunity for dinner when matches/events take place.
4. Weekly competitions and throw-ups (don't wanna bring a game to the club every week)
5. Decent, modest clubhouse
6. Informal and not necessarily a golfy vibe
7. Club on sound financial ground

I think Sean has summed up my ideal requirements for me, although number 2) maybe not be that important if the club is 'right', but here are a few additions I'd like -

8 - at least 27-holes in total where the 9-hole course is also a good quality course
9 - top class short-game and putting practice facilities very close to the clubhouse
10 - free-draining soil, firm & fast conditioning, no deciduous trees (so no autumn leaves), low level water abstraction agreement
11 - member owned club but where the staff (not the committees) run the show
12 - not too many members (say circa 600)
13 - reasonably established club with some level of history (ie not a newbie)
14 - location allowing 12 months p/a golf (even if some months are a bit chilly)
15 - only golf (not a country club) and absolutely no weddings/christenings and the like!
16 - junior, senior, lady and incapacitated-golfer friendly
17 - has a entry/initiation fee but not a massive one
18 - no bar/food levy
19 - not surrounded by housing estates/industrial sites
20 - within a 10 minute drive of my home

Not much to ask really (sic).

I'll probably think of something else (and edit it into the above), but for now this list will do.

All the best

[BCowan]

..

[Brent Hutto]

Honestly, my current club would be pretty close to my ideal with one change only.

If we had 50 more members and no long-term debt hanging like the Sword of Damocles over our head I wouldn't have to wonder whether the next blip in the local economic situation will doom us as it has several other clubs in my area over the last few years.

But the course (Ellis Maples, 1960) is as close to ideal for me as any non-links course could be, the facilities are more than sufficient for my needs while also keeping the non-golf-focused members reasonably happy and the membership is predominantly comprised of people I'm compatible with. Hard to ask for much more than that.

I'm in my 50's, dual income no kids household, interested only in playing golf and not other country-club amenities.

P.S. Now if you had asked for "pie in the sky" it would be some kind of golf-only, walking-only, firm-and-fast-and-brown golf geek's Nirvana. But within the realm of remotely realistic real-world places to play golf, that I can afford to join and within driving distance of my home, well I'm good.

[Dan Kelly]

P.S. Now if you had asked for "pie in the sky" it would be some kind of golf-only, walking-only, firm-and-fast-and-brown golf geek's Nirvana. But within the realm of remotely realistic real-world places to play golf, that I can afford to join and within driving distance of my home, well I'm good.

Well put.

[RJ_Daley]

I forgot to add that the grille room, must have some very high quality big screen TVs with ability to show at least the golf event of the day, the local interest game of the day - football, baseball, or basketball, and a third TV for whatever else is going on of grille room user interest.  

[BCowan]

P.S. Now if you had asked for "pie in the sky" it would be some kind of golf-only, walking-only, firm-and-fast-and-brown golf geek's Nirvana. But within the realm of remotely realistic real-world places to play golf, that I can afford to join and within driving distance of my home, well I'm good.

    I think that is achieved in a small-mid sized city.  My club is 60% walking and could be walking only if it let non university affiliated on.  It is $1700 a year.  it isn't firm and fast like Kingsley!  It can be done in many areas if founded by the right people!

[Patrick Kiser]

Just an observation on this...

"Afford" and/or "Affordable" are relative terms.

$1,000 monthly dues in CA may come across as "affordable" whereas elsewhere it might not.

I see a lot of "wishful" thinking in terms of what one would get that's considered "affordable".

In my experience ... you tend to get what you pay for.

You want no tee times, exclusivity, etc. ... it ain't gonna come cheap.  Simple as that.

So it helps to have a sense of realism in all this, because otherwise the "ideal" will remain just that: a dream.

A wise person once told me if I had to think twice about the initiation and dues ... then you have no business joining.

[BCowan]

..

[Steve Kline]

My current club essentially has no tee times (only Friday, Saturday, Sunday from noon-3). I wouldn't call it expensive - $495/mo for a single (sadly that includes a food minimum). Although that isn't what I'd call cheap either. My qualifications above didn't say anything about price though.

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