[David Davis]

I've been running into this a lot lately, cases where the architect had one thing in mind and I'd imagine has handed down the information on how they might like to see their courses maintained and upon return noticed that many things have changed or been forgotten.

One example of this that I experienced with Frank Pont, some fairways that by Frank's admission were continually becoming smaller to the point that there were bunkers in doglegs that egged you to take them on only to reward you with deep rough. Frank, in this case immediately spoke to the Head Greenskeeper to have this changed.

How often are you experiencing this type of occurrence, any examples?

How about some that were different but with a really positive outcome?

Where does architecture actually stop and greenkeeping start/cross over in your view?

[Thomas Dai]

I guess what we're looking at here is more likely maintenance practices not adding up to the architects intention.

One example I've witnessed is an old course where over the years the greens have gotten 'smaller'. How come? When built the greens and fringes were cut with hand mowers. Now they're cut with ride on mowers. Once-upon-a-time, the outer edges of the greens were one hand-mower width from the bunkers, now the edges of the green are one ride-on mowers width away from them. Smaller greens, less pin placements, more wear-n-tear vrs speedier daily mowing?

Good thread. Looking forward to following the debate.

All the best.

[Sean_A]

DD

I don't think a clear distinction can be made between architecture and maintenance.  If its a maintenance decision to narrow fairways, it changes the architecture and on and on.  

I see a lot of nonsense involving trees, rough, water and bunkers which detract from pre-existing quality design.  Its great when a club decides to tackle problems, but often times I think we have to accept that a lot of golfers on the dark side   think an over-abundance of these elements is what golf is.  I guess one may as well just avoid those places even if we can see a terrific design underneath.

Ciao

[Randy Thompson]

ONE thing I canīt stand is to play one of my designs and find all of or three of the four par 3īs playing the same club because of  setting the tee marker location creating the same distance or finially having a different distant but actually plays the same as the others because of the wind! The alternative tees should allow for every par three to play a different club. Is this asking to much??

[Tom_Doak]

ONE thing I canīt stand is to play one of my designs and find all of or three of the four par 3īs playing the same club because of  setting the tee marker location creating the same distance or finially having a different distant but actually plays the same as the others because of the wind! The alternative tees should allow for every par three to play a different club. Is this asking to much??

Randy:

Maybe you shouldn't give them the opportunity.  Just build a hole where none of the tees is below 180 yards, and another where none of the tees is above 145.

[Randy Thompson]

Tom,
A good practical solution and I will consider it more in the future if I ever get to actually design another course (I am drowning down here). I really like presenting alternatives to course set up and I will lose a Little in that category but routing are full of trade offs! Do you normally use this design concept for the same reason?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
A good practical solution and I will give consider it more in the future if I ever get to actually design another course (I am drowning down here). I really like presenting alternatives to course set up and I will lose a Little in that category but routing are full of trade offs! Do you normally use this design concept for the same reason?

Randy:

I try to vary the lengths of my par-3's, but I don't lose sleep if the set-up sometimes neuters that objective.  I learned the hard way that I don't own my courses and there is not much to be gained by complaining about how they are set up.  If you give people alternatives, you shouldn't be surprised when they use them.

The most compelling outcome of that has been that a couple of my courses encourage golfers to choose their own tees and make the course more interesting on their own, instead of relying on the maintenance staff to do it on a daily basis.  Surely, when you play your own courses with friends, you don't always go where they put the tee markers, do you?  Maybe you just need to go out and play with the superintendent a couple of times to emphasize the point.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Randy,

Had similar concerns.  I really vary the length of par 3 holes from back tees - 130-175-220-265.  Golfers have commented that you sure don't mix those up!  (Especially if the 130-265 are on the same nine holes)

As to the OP, the "George Costanzia Problem" of "shrinkage" is pretty universal, and not confined to very cold water hazards.  Most greens these days have a wire around them to allow detection via current reader of the intended edges.  I guess fairways and tees won't be far behind.  Then supers could go out every spring and try to recapture the original edges.

On the other hand, they may not want to. As TD notes, how can the gca force a course to mow the original 50 acres of fw if they are financially struggling and most other clubs seem to do fine with 30 Acres?  I am guessing most would prefer a narrower fairway course to an "NLE" on their resume.

[Randy Thompson]

Tom,
A good practical solution and I will give consider it more in the future if I ever get to actually design another course (I am drowning down here). I really like presenting alternatives to course set up and I will lose a Little in that category but routing are full of trade offs! Do you normally use this design concept for the same reason?

Randy:

I try to vary the lengths of my par-3's, but I don't lose sleep if the set-up sometimes neuters that objective.  I learned the hard way that I don't own my courses and there is not much to be gained by complaining about how they are set up.  
Good point, I am still learning.

If you give people alternatives, you shouldn't be surprised when they use them.
Surprises me when they use them badly contridicting basic course set up

The most compelling outcome of that has been that a couple of my courses encourage golfers to choose their own tees and make the course more interesting on their own, instead of relying on the maintenance staff to do it on a daily basis.
Love it and would love to see it grow!

  Surely, when you play your own courses with friends, you don't always go where they put the tee markers, do you?  
No, I donīt but 98% of the golfer do.

Maybe you just need to go out and play with the superintendent a couple of times to emphasize the point.
In Chile its under the proīs responsibility and I have played with him several times and explained my concerns.

[Mark Pearce]

David,

This is a common problem.  My home course is a Colt design, with some alterations by Braid (and a new hole courtesy of a loose cannon greens committee).  Fairway widths are very narrow, less than 20 yards in places.  What old photographs the club has (and there aren't many) show far, far wider fairways.  We now have bunkers sitting in rough and, worse, an island pf rough and saplings between the 1st and 18th which appear, originally, to have shared a wide fairway.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Like Tom said, the architect playing golf with the super is a really good idea. I also think it is a good idea for the super to be a part of the design/construction team if it is a new course or renovation.

I'd also say to look for supers who play the game and study golf architecture. They are out there, but your club has to view the job as more then just caring for the turf.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have played Hasentree in Wake Forest, NC a couple of times which is in a gated upscale community.  The course is a Tom Fazio design and has some very interesting holes with a good deal of width and nicely contoured greens.  The biggest feature on the course is the bunkers which are numerous, big and deep but the maintenance practices are baffling as the bunkers are surrounded by what I believe is zoysia grass which is 6 to 8 inches deep.  It is so deep that you can lose balls or have no recovery.  More importantly, the grass is so deep that balls don't go into the bunkers which is surely contrary to what TF had in mind when they were designed and built.

[David Davis]

These are interesting examples. I'm really wondering what this comes down to? Are these things being decided by greens committees? Are these pure maintenance issues from green keeping staff that are under experienced? Or is is just plain lack of funds or man power due to lack of funds?

[Jerry Kluger]

Hasentree is a decision by the ownership to maintain the course that way which really baffles the mind as they are in need of members and I cannot imagine any player wanting to play a course on a regular basis which is maintained that way. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()