Adding to the challenge - lengthening our 18th tee

[David Davis]

This weekend we have begun the tee/back tee renovations and lengthening from our 18th hole. It's a change that brings about mixed feelings both from myself as well as certain pockets of members. It certainly is a very appropriate discussion for GCA. Is it necessary? What will the end result be like in terms of playability? One other min point is that there will be as you can see a bit of a walk back to the back tee. This will also make our closing stretch a real challenge for strong players to walk off with 3 pars when the wind is blowing.

BUDA participants from last year will have a good idea of what kind of finishing hole this is and what the lengthening to nearly 400 meters (437 yds) will mean. During the BUDA we played the yellow tees from 337 meter (368 yds). The back tees were at 358 meters (391 yds).

As you can see from the photos the hole is a dog leg right with two fairway bunkers in the right corner. The prevalent wind (windforce 4.8 (18 mp/h or 29 km/h) yearly average) comes from left to right.

Here is the hole to refresh your memory:



This photo is showing what the bunkers and approach look like, bunker just on your right (sorry only photo I have):




Here are two picture from the 15th tee right above the new back tee from the 18th.





This places the bunkers right at 257 meters (281 yds) and brings them into play for the guys that should be back there arguably. In order to create this new back tee we have to have some light shaping done to the dunes to the right of the photo. What's expected is that players will have a mid to low iron into the green. On the occasion that this baby plays straight into the wind, it will certainly become a par 5. It will rarely play with wind behind but will play about 30% of the time with wind coming from left to right against which will also make it tough as nails.

Otherwise it was simply an amazing day for the 15th of November and despite the low wind and perfect condition I managed to raise my hcp up another .1 giving me that 1 extra shot against all my fellow GCA'ers when we meet next:

[David Davis]

I should add a couple other points that I've taken for obvious just because I know the hole so well. As you can see the current tee box in the first photos is a bit of an ugly runway. This will of course be changed. These tees are being separated and moved slightly to the right which changes the angle a little. The mens yellow tees will also be moved back about 12 meters which really bring the bunkers into play from the yellows for most players as well.

[Tom_Doak]

I was going to ask why the club felt it necessary to lengthen the hole -- are they trying to attract a tournament?

But your note about lengthening the regular tee is more disturbing.  It may indeed "bring the bunkers more into play" [though remember, everyone hits the ball different lengths], but the one thing it's guaranteed to do is give everyone a longer approach.  That is the sort of creeping change that makes the game take another minute or two to play, and drives people away.  Is that an architect's recommendation?

[Jeff Evagues]

Could you name your course? I'm sure not everyone on the site is familiar.

[Frank Pont]

David,

the 18th at Noordwijk already wasn't my favorite hole on the course, even more than R. Hague 18 a rather disappointing end to a round, and lengthening is not the solution to making it a better hole, especially given that the walk back to the tee from the worldclass par 3 seventeenth hole will be even longer.

The problem is the fact that the hole isn't close the clubhouse, a routing issue, and that the hole itself and the green complex lacks some the the complexity that some of the better holes on the course has.

Making it longer, will just, make it it longer......

[John Mayhugh]

David,
Will this mean you can start telling visitors to add 11 shots to their normal score?  

Frank's last comment is spot on.

[David Davis]

Tom,

This was not an architects recommendation. Martin Ebert is the architect we work with. This has other origins and it would not be appropriate for me to go into that openly here on this platform. I can say that I am not in favor of these changes but if our only choice and fixed mandate is to lengthen our closing hole then, yes this is the best option.

I will say that generally from the back tees of the current hole I hit 3 wood 9 iron or wedge and don't consider myself that long. Especially not for the better players at our club.

I don't agree on the 18th hole not being a good closing hole as it was. The only thing I think that needed to be done was to redo the green and the surrounds. The left side of the green drops steeply down to the car park and my opinion would be to redo the tee boxes changing the angles a bit and getting rid of the runway effect that was currently there. Then to thin out the rough behind and to the right of the bunkers make it more of an option to actually take them on. Now if you take them on the reward is hitting into ball losing rough. In general I'm not a fan of protection hazards with hazards or using hazards to hide hazards.

No we do not want to have a professional tournament there in the future.

We are also lengthening the only semi reachable par 5 we have by 35 meters. Making it a true 3 shotter and giving us 3 x par 5's over 500 meters and one just under. Also not something I'm in favor of.

The good thing about lengthening is that you can always just shorten it again :-) I've fought my battles on these things as much as I could. I've used evidence and advice from many of our peers, agree with Martin on nearly every point but am still losing the battle in the end.

John, you are correct 11 shots on top of your hcp based on the slope :-)

Jeff, my course is called the Noordwijkse Golf Club - I did a photo tour of it earlier if you are interested:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52982.0.html

[David Davis]

The problem is the fact that the hole isn't close the clubhouse, a routing issue, and that the hole itself and the green complex lacks some the the complexity that some of the better holes on the course has.

Frank,

That you don't like the hole I have no problem with of course. I don't understand the above comment though. The green is only 50 meters from the club house. You can sit on the deck and watch everyone finishing out the round almost right below. Perhaps I don't understand your statement here. You can also watch them, tee off at #1, #10, #17 and if you have decent eyes you can watch all of #16 as well.

Care to elaborate please?

Cheers

[Randy Thompson]

What a fantastic hole, with the new tee and without. I think it will be a mistake if the tee is used consistently but I give it warrant as a valuable and worthy alternative. The hole plays different all the time with the wind, considering that and throwing more length alternatives should keep it even more interesting. The eighteenth hole should be a strong test of ones golfing abilities and both tee locations, seem to provide holes that do just that. Impressive pictures! Not sure I would have messed with the mounds for what I assume is to be provide a view or improved view to the landing area??

[Frank Pont]

David,

You are very correct in that my comments were not precise. My main gripe is with the green complex and the hole design in general.

What I meant with the green location comment was how nice it would have been for the hole to end up closer to and in front of the clubhouse (think Kennemer C9 and B9). BTW in Google Earth the distance from center green to the clubhouse is 80 meters.

A more drastic idea would have been to get rid of the ugly caddie master building in front of the clubhouse and use that extra space to put the 18th green closer to the clubhouse....

[Ulrich Mayring]

For me the hole was plenty long from yellow. I needed three shots to reach the green on every occasion I played it. I also thought it to be a weaker hole.

Ulrich

[Michael Whitaker]

As I said in the other thread about golf in Holland, the Dutch take pride in making things hard just for the sake of making things hard. Now your average golfer can really get his head bashed in on the 18th hole... oh joy!

[Randy Thompson]

As I said in the other thread about golf in Holland, the Dutch take pride in making things hard just for the sake of making things hard. Now your average golfer can really get his head bashed in on the 18th hole... oh joy!

I think it depends on how the average golfer plays the hole. I imagine many average golfers will have a realistic chance of walking away with bogey, a good score and many will make maistakes and make bad decisions and walk away with doublé and triple. Isn´t that what it´s all about?

[Ulrich Mayring]

The only problem is that the hole is not designed for a Bogey strategy. With the new tee I doubt that the Bogey player will be able to play it safe. He will need Driver to even reach the fairway and then his longest club for the second in order to get close enough to even have half a chance to hit the green with his third. No strategy involved at all.

Ulrich

[Randy Thompson]

The only problem is that the hole is not designed for a Bogey strategy. With the new tee I doubt that the Bogey player will be able to play it safe. He will need Driver to even reach the fairway and then his longest club for the second in order to get close enough to even have half a chance to hit the green with his third. No strategy involved at all.

Ulrich

Ulrich,
Back tees are not designed for the average player. Apparently they are also building a new regular tee and if that new tee requires a carry of more then 180 yards to the fairway then I am in agreement and they need to re-evaluate everything. I think the pro´s and low handicappers are hitting the driver much longer with the advances in technology but I doubt if the average golfer drive has increased as much through the years. Creating a new alternative back tee, 10% longer for pro´s and low handicappers seems to compensate for the technology advances and makes the hole play once again similar to the original design. Omce again, to be used as an alternative tee, not day to day.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Randy,

I could care less about the back tee, if the club has a sufficient number of longhitters. But the par 4 will apparently be 440 yards from the member tee.

Ulrich

[Randy Thompson]

Ulrich,
Your correct, I understood the back tee was going from 391 to 437 but after re-reading it´s the regular or memebers tee and thats a lot for a hole that plays agaist the wind for the average golfer and its a lot even if there is no wind.

[David Davis]

I've been thinking about these comments today. Also realize I made a mistake with the movement of the medal tees. I rechecked and they are only being moved about 4 meters which is a big difference from 12. Just they were also moved the right which actually improves the angle.

I'm going argue that our closing hole is quire a strong hole and I'd like those of you who disagree to tell me why architecturally it's not. If you don't like it that's one thing, for example it's too tough for you or you don't like dog legs right or uphill approaches.

Here's my argument why the hole is a strong closing hole:

For the average to high hcp'er let's say hcp 12 - 30. The landing area is very generous, one of our widest unless they want to try and take on the bunker and the corner. Keep in mind the normal wind moved the ball in the direction of the bunker. Also keep in mind these hcps all get a shot on this hole which is the 12th hardest hole so bogey is the expected score for them (their personal par)

Ulrich that means for you bogey is good so it's no big deal that it took you 3 shots to get there. What you also didn't mention is that the holes set up really well for people to play it in 3 shots. The fairway narrows by the bunkers and the dogleg. Then over that hill it's completely open again. Very friendly for our members both high and average hcp'ers.

It's not easy for them, but it's the closing hole and it's fair and it's set up so they can very easily manage the green in 3 shots if they are not good at hitting say 6 iron - hybrid. In my opinion very fair.

For mid to low hcp'ers 5 - 12 hcp the hole is playable from either the medal tees or the back tees. From the back tees hcp's down to 7 will all get a shot on this hole, making bogey their personal par. From the medal tees most of these players can take on the bunker or play short.

Playing left of these bunkers to the dog leg (safe left of these bunkers) is a trickier and riskier shot but leaves anything between an 8 iron and a wedge in from a very good angle of approach. They also have the option of hitting a low iron or hybrid off the tee to the wider landing area which leaves between a 7 iron and say 4 iron/hybrid.

For the stronger players at our club hcp 4 - +4. this hole from the current back tees is simply a push over. These guys are hitting hybrid or iron, or taking on the bunker with driver or 3 wood leaving them anywhere between wedge to 60 degree wedge left. For them the bunkers are not in play although if they snap hook the ball they could end up in trouble. I've never seen one of the do this. The new back tee is a strong finish for these guys and a tough finish for the 5-12 hcp group of which I belong.

This makes the new distance from the back tee an appropriate challenge.

Other characteristics of the hole that make it strong:

-Excellent natural shaping and undulations in the fairway.
-strong set up with regards to our prevailing wind.
-playability for all levels.
-green itself is also quite good being two tiered with some nice gentle undulation.
-bailout is right of the green.
-bunkering is done very well.
-play's safely around the 17th tee.
-possible to run the ball up onto the green or fly it in depending on your choice of shots.
-a challenging par but easy bogey for most levels.
-ends right up at the clubhouse. (Frank says 80 meters but I stepped it off at 60 today ;-))

Ok so the picture is there so please explain to me in architecture terms why this hole is not a strong hole?

And please add your hcp so I can get an idea of what your perspective is. So far I believe everyone that commented plays in double digits except John and Tom.

[Randy Thompson]

David,
As previously stated, from the informtion you provided and pictures I really like the hole. I like the risk reward factors of the bunkers and it seems that they were originally designed to make you think twice about hitting over them and over the years they lost some of the strategic value and most were blasting over and having a short iron into the green. I like the idea of having this option still but I also think it´s a good idea to bring back some of the original design characteristics and makig the bunkers come more into play which I asume was the idea of the creation of new tees. I get confused on the distances though. I think adjusting a membership tee 5 or 6% is justified and up to fifteen percent for the big boys. If the membership tee is going from 391 to 437, I think that is a bigger change then I would recommend but in a couple of years, maybe that will be ok! The back tees could go up to 480 and not bother me a bit as long as it was not used all the time. The carry distance is not mentioned in your description and is important but up to 130 yards is ok for me from the regular tees and near 180 from the back. Will the bunkers be completly blind from the new tees if the mounding to the right is not reshaped? IF that is the case then you can also justify some minor reshaping to the mounds. Why do you ask for the handicapps from contributors? Hopefully, my hándicap doesn´t effect my views of basic design concepts.

[John Mayhugh]

As Frank mentioned, the walk from the 17th green back to the 18th tee is already a weak point on the hole, and the lengthening project doesn't improve that.  My memory of the green site is of the hike up to the clubhouse.  The parking lot is below the green and to the left, and I couldn't help but wonder how many people finish play, drop off the clubs, and then head home rather than walk back up to the clubhouse.  It sounds like a minor thing, but as David's mentioned the course isn't the easiest walk

I don't remember the green as receptive to a run-up approach.  There's a dip in front and shots that are a bit short get sent back down the hill and to the left.  With the right greenside bunker, the dip, the lush surrounds and the slope to the left, a run-up would seem to need to be very precise.  

It's an ok hole, but not one of the best on the course.  

[David Kelly]

I don't think the regular tees should be lengthened at all mainly because my biggest gripe about the hole is the area to the left of the green.  I saw a few people go into there on their second or third shot and come away with Xs.  Is there a way that different grass could be planted there - especially since after the lengthening players will be coming in with longer, less accurate irons or hybrids? As it is now there are lies 5 feet to the left of the green that unplayable in that thick grass.

[Ulrich Mayring]

David,

the problem is not that it takes me 3 shots to get there, but that it is the same 3 shots every time! There are no strategic alternatives for me, that is the reason why I thought it to be one of the weaker holes on the course.

Also, the rough around that bunker needs to be cleared big time. That is lost ball territory right next to a bunker you'd expect big hitters to take on and the wind to blow towards - not good.

Ulrich

[David Davis]

David,

the problem is not that it takes me 3 shots to get there, but that it is the same 3 shots every time! There are no strategic alternatives for me, that is the reason why I thought it to be one of the weaker holes on the course.

Also, the rough around that bunker needs to be cleared big time. That is lost ball territory right next to a bunker you'd expect big hitters to take on and the wind to blow towards - not good.

Ulrich

Ulrich, You've had 2 or 3 plays right? What was the wind doing? I can't remember what the conditions were during BUDA. I remember sunshine. What you are say is not completely true. I've seen you play so I can definitely estimate your options. You could safely hit driver I think, maybe you could reach the bunker right? That only leaves you a 130 meters (if your not in it) anything left would be fine. You don't hit it far enough to be taking it on. So what club do you hit 130-140 meters up hill? 5 iron? Hybrid?

That's also an option for you and I guarantee you could do it. So there you have many options. The aggressive play is to go for it in two. The safe options would look like this:

Driver, wedge, wedge (or 8 iron run up or any version there of)
5 iron, 7-8 iron, wedge ( or 8 iron run up or any version there of)

I don't know off hand how far you hit your hybrids but seem to remember you having quite a few of them. Plus you are really straight so why would you be worrying about the rough?

I mean let's be realistic here. Go play number 16 at Cypress Point. Your only option and many peoples only option is just to play left onto the lay up and play it as a par 4 basically. I could think of a hundred other arguably great holes that would only allow you one option.

Here you have many more which I'm 100% sure are all option for you. The hole is only 337 meters long. That's very short for a 4 for European standards.

Ok with a hard head wind you don't make it but I struggle to make it as well then. That's links golf.

[Ulrich Mayring]

David,

maybe I am confused. Now you are saying 337 meters, but that is what we played at Buda. But weren't you saying the tees were going much farther back? Can you post the new numbers for both yellow and back tees?

I didn't think that I could reach the fairway from the new tee with a 5 iron or even hybrid. So it has to be driver. And then it has to be 5 wood in order to get to wedge range. It's no fun to be hitting a mid iron into that green with your 3rd

Ulrich

[Cristian]

David,

maybe I am confused. Now you are saying 337 meters, but that is what we played at Buda. But weren't you saying the tees were going much farther back? Can you post the new numbers for both yellow and back tees?

I didn't think that I could reach the fairway from the new tee with a 5 iron or even hybrid. So it has to be driver. And then it has to be 5 wood in order to get to wedge range. It's no fun to be hitting a mid iron into that green with your 3rd

Ulrich

Ulrich,

I am also a member at Noordwijkse, but unfortunately was not able to attend BUDA. Also I am not as knowledgeable as David on the changes, but I can and would like to chip in some of my thoughts, having played the hole well  over a 100 times.

From David's second entry into this thread above:
 I should add a couple other points that I've taken for obvious just because I know the hole so well. As you can see the current tee box in the first photos is a bit of an ugly runway. This will of course be changed. These tees are being separated and moved slightly to the right which changes the angle a little. The mens yellow tees will also be moved back about 12 meters which really bring the bunkers into play from the yellows for most players as well.

So the yellow tee will not be at 400 meters after the change, but at roughly 349 meters (381 yards). You would certainly be able to hit the fairway with a 5 iron, even if you are a short hitter. Also If you hit driver, you should be able to reach in two even if you are a relatively short hitter, unless the wind is > 50 kmh, which is relatively rare even at Noordwijk. You certainly won't be hitting mid iron third shots from this tee.

For the record I believe this is a good finishing hole; yes you can run up a big number if you miss left, but there is a bailout right and it is also very possible to make birdie on the hole for a high single, or low double digit handicapper.

Here is what I like about the hole:

*Longer hitters (220 yards+ carry) will land in an upslope and get much less roll, but if they challenge the bunkers they will cut off a huge chunk of the dogleg and will just have a wedge into the green.

* Fairway contours: If you hit your drive some 180-200 yards carry you will get a kick forward and right towards the green, rewarding the medium to short hitter who hits a good drive (depending on wind). Longer hitters can achieve the same clubbing down off the Tee for a safe play.

* There are dune bushes on the left of the fairway from 220 meters of the tee, which can come into play for the longer hitters.

*As the prevailing wind is not just against but also and equally from the left, it is vital to choose the right line from the tee. It is easy to run out of fairway on the left, if one overcompensates for the wind, but it is also a challenge to avoid rough and the bunkers on the right if you hit a high faded shot. Being able to control trajectory or to pull off a low draw can be a great advantage.

* The hole doglegs to the right, which means the hole becomes much shorter if one drives near the bunkers; for shorter hitters it is a good play to aim for the bunkers if you won't reach them and leave yourself with some 130 meters to the front of the green.

* Left of the green is 'dead', but there is a bailout long and right with a slope kicking balls back onto the green.

*As the hole is a dogleg right, the prevailing wind of the left and against, becomes almost a full left wind for the second shot. This makes club selection difficult as the effect of the wind is really different from the tee shot.

In summary there is a lot to think about both on the tee shot and the approach. With varying wind speeds or directions each play can become an option for virtually every player, so I certainly would not say the hole plays similar every time and there are always several viable options. It is an advantage if you can shape your ball right to left, although on the second shot a high fade can be advantageous as well, making it easier to stop the ball on the uphill shot.

I do agree with some of the criticisms, e.g. the rough surrounding the fairway bunkers. Not so much a problem August-May, but uninviting in summer when the rough is up. Also I would like to see more of the kick-board slope to the right hand side of the green to be mowed as apron or fairway, to entice people a bit more to go for the bailout area.

All in all a thinking man's hole, and therefore in my book a good hole; you can ruin a good score, but you can also play safe, while at the same time one can also choose to play aggressive in a matchplay situation. For the record: The current runway Tee is an eyesore... in that sense the changes are bound to be an improvement.