[mike_beene]

If it were not a traffic ,flow issue would the West course be superior to the Composite? Are the East course holes different?Were any of the East holes ever part of West?How close in time was the East built?Is it a logistical issue?How bad is the road crossing?Can someone tell me which holes on this Composite are from East?

[David_Elvins]

The composite is clearly better than the west IMO.   RMW16 is the only great hole that is missed in the composite routing although 13W and 9W are very good.  The real improvement in the composite course is that it provides a better mix of holes.  8W, 9W and 14W are medium length par 4s, 15W is a short par 5 and 13W is a short par 3.  The east holes provide better balance as well as being a great set of holes.  

The road crossing on the west is not really an issue although the crossings on the east affect the experience. Their is no discernible difference between the east course holes on the composite course and the west course holes although some of the greens on the east course outer paddock are flatter than the main paddock and west course greens.  

[Ben Jarvis]

Mike,

The Composite is superior to the West, but not by a huge margin.

With OHS obligations these days, the West will never be used for a tournament due to the road crossings. Mind you, Cheltenham Rd, which is the road you cross from 12W to 13W and 16W to 17W is closed to public cars during the tournaments.

The East Course opened in 1932, one year later than the West.

[Jim Nugent]

I read that the composite course was first put together in 1959, for the Canada Cup.  Does anyone know who came up with the idea/design for the composite?  Curious if any golfers had played their versions of composite courses before that.  

[mike_beene]

It seems every time I try to figure the Composite out on TV they change the hole numbers.Have they come to some consensus and shouldn't they?Is the walk past hole a disruption or is it just a few extra steps? I realize I am full of questions but one more: is there public transportation for the crowds or a lot off site with a shuttle?Other than the extra holes the property looks surrounded by neighborhoods.

[Tom_Doak]

I read that the composite course was first put together in 1959, for the Canada Cup.  Does anyone know who came up with the idea/design for the composite?  Curious if any golfers had played their versions of composite courses before that.  

In the original edition of The World Atlas of Golf, Peter Thomson is credited with coming up with the Composite Course, though I believe he was part of a committee.

[jonathan_becker]

Mike Beene,

Obviously the Australians know this, but the composite you're watching on TV over the next two weeks is a different course than the original composite.  Sorry if I'm posting something you already know.

[Jason Topp]

I think this is the order although my recollection of how they are doing the finishing holes this year is a bit foggy.


1 - 3W
2 - 4W
3 - 5W
4 - 6W
5 - 7W
6 - 10 W
7 - 11W
8 - 12W
9 - 17W
10 - 18 W
11 - 1E
12 - 2E
13 - 9E (?  I think)
14 - 16E
15 - 17E
16 - 2W
17 - 1W
18 - 18E

[mike_beene]

It would be nice if they could decide on an order and stick with it.Makes the course hard to learn from TV. Is the Composite ever played by the members on low play days?

[Sven Nilsen]

It would be nice if they could decide on an order and stick with it.Makes the course hard to learn from TV.

I have the opposite reaction.  I like seeing the course(s) played with different rhythms.  Says something about the elasticity of the property that they would have a different routing for this week's event from what they used just a couple of years ago for the President's Cup.  It also allows for different setups depending on whether the event is stroke or match play.

Also, I think the holes at RM may stand out as some of the most individually distinctive holes on any golf course in the world.  For example, RMW #7 flashed on the TV the other night in the background of an event and I immediately recognized the hole.  Perhaps its more distinctive than holes 11 and 12, but there are others that stand out in the same manner.

[mike_beene]

Sven, it is a great property but isn't part of a course the pacing of the presentation? Merion is an example of what I like in a course.I don't care for 10th tee starts.Maybe it is just my compulsive wish for order! I love watching RM but feel a little like I do after a shotgun start in the middle of a course.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:

I agree with you in general.  But you have to remember that this isn't the set up you'd get to play, its the setup they've put together for the Talisker, which has an entirely different purpose than accommodating normal member/guest play.  As for "pacing of presentation," there's an immense gap between television presentation and actually walking and playing the course.

I think it says something about the course that they're willing to put several of the most standout holes on the property at the beginning of this composite routing.  RMW 3, 5, 6 and 7 are amazing golf holes, yet there is enough great golf to be played that the round would feel balanced whether you stuck them at the beginning or the end of the 18.  Having the round finish on RME 18 works for this event.  Its the most grand stage on the property.  

RM gets its rhythm from the many stretches of great holes, not necessarily by how they all fit within an 18 hole framework.  Playing RMW 3-7 is a world class stretch, yet it gets a good challenge from the East courses run of 1-3, as well as the devilish combo of RMW's 17 and 18 (holes I believe complement each other wonderfully), as well as the test of various skills found at RMW 10-12.  However you throw these combinations up on the board, you're going to get good golf.  The rest is just logistics, and figuring out what makes the most sense for the event they're hosting.

Sven

[Mike_Clayton]

Jason,

You have the order right except for 13. The sliding, downhill par four is 3 East.

I watched the Ogilvy, Lyle group for two days as well at Mat Goggin on the other side of the draw.
Ogilvy and Goggin both missed a ton of putts inside 10 feet - Ogilvy the first day missed three from 4 feet - and watching putting at RM is very much like my two experiences of watching golf at Augusta.
Obviously the leaders are holing putts but both courses are incredibly difficult to putt and those further down miss an awful lot of putts from a length they would regularly hole on the week to week tour events.

[Adam_Messix]

Mike--

You make a fabulous point about both courses at Royal Melbourne.  You do not see many putts made there and I'm not totally sure why because the greens there are flawless.   My group struggled making putts and most of the birdies were from short range.  It seems like putts will looks like they are going in close to the hole and will make a subtle move at the hole while losing speed and miss.  

Royal Melbourne is the most angular course that I've come across.  The fairways are VERY wide, but the effective width where a player can attack is quite narrow and it can get to the point on some holes where you can be in the fairway and with the combination of firm/fast greens and narrow target that the player has little or no chance to get near the hole.  

I hope that the weather is dry over the next fortnight so they can get it really firm for the World Cup and you can avoid a hot northerly wind too!

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike not sure why you think it's like starting in a shotgun. 3W is very close to the clubhouse and a very challenging start, as for low play days they have enough members to ensure they don't get them.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

Ogilvy and Goggin both missed a ton of putts inside 10 feet - Ogilvy the first day missed three from 4 feet - and watching putting at RM is very much like my two experiences of watching golf at Augusta.

Mike:  
Thanks for the correction on the hole number.

I watched them play the first round on television.  Does Ogilvy have the yips?  He has hit some horrible putts over the last couple of years when I have seen him on television.  I hope he gets that straightened out.

[Mike_Clayton]

Jason,

He certainly doesn't too like he has the yips. His stroke still looks and free-flowing and confident as ever. He did putt much better on Saturday when he shot 67 - as did Goggin.
My guess is that he is down on confidence, understandably after a year of poor results. Watching him hit though is as impressive as ever - and he will be back playing better before long.

[David Davis]

I played the composite course with a member about 5 years ago (maybe 6). It was quite that day but the course was in really rough shape as it was during the really bad drought all was brown since they didn't have their own water supply.

This is one of the reasons I want to return for a replay. I can't even recognize most of the course when there's actually grass on it. At the time it was really hard for me to look through it and imagine what it's normally like. I still had a great day but didn't think the course was even close to as good as Kingston Heath (who apparently have their own water supply) and were unaffected by the drought.

 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jason,

You have the order right except for 13. The sliding, downhill par four is 3 East.

I watched the Ogilvy, Lyle group for two days as well at Mat Goggin on the other side of the draw.
Ogilvy and Goggin both missed a ton of putts inside 10 feet - Ogilvy the first day missed three from 4 feet - and watching putting at RM is very much like my two experiences of watching golf at Augusta.
Obviously the leaders are holing putts but both courses are incredibly difficult to putt and those further down miss an awful lot of putts from a length they would regularly hole on the week to week tour events.

Mike,

I haven't been to Royal Melbourne, yet; but, I've visited Augusta a few times. How do the greens compare, architecturally?

[Matthew Mollica]

I read that the composite course was first put together in 1959, for the Canada Cup.  Does anyone know who came up with the idea/design for the composite?  Curious if any golfers had played their versions of composite courses before that.  

In the original edition of The World Atlas of Golf, Peter Thomson is credited with coming up with the Composite Course, though I believe he was part of a committee.

Tom, from all I read, Peter Thomson was called into a discussion with the manager at the time, Bill Richardson, and the super, Claude Crockford. Bill was of the hope that the World Cup (then Canada Cup) could come to RM for 1959. The Composite was Bill's idea of avoiding issues with policing road crossings, as it comprises 18 holes on the main paddock. The sequence was presented to Peter and Claude in that meeting. It seems Crockford may have had a small sense of hesitation with the timing of a tournament in November, owing to weather and course conditions, suggesting February would be better, but that he would make it work in November. Mike Clayton's book on RM features a piece from Thomson which is consistent with this version of events.

MM

[Matthew Mollica]

Makes the course hard to learn from TV. Is the Composite ever played by the members on low play days?

Mike - The Composite gets more play than most realise. Nov 30 and Dec 1 are both Composite course days this year, and member only events. I think I played it 8 times last year. There are around 6 Composite course days on the Club schedule each year. Some pairs events, some individual. Some member only, the odd one welcomes guests. Good Friday and Christmas day also sees the outer paddocks closed, and the composite course patrolled by a ranger, for those members who seek a fix on those days. And, as you say, late in the day with no-one around, I'm sure some choose to play the Composite, without delaying others.

Matthew

[Neil_Crafter]

It seems that Dick Corcoran who was to run the event on behalf of the IGA asked Dick Wilson who was in Australia at the time to visit Royal Melbourne and let him know what he thought of the composite course idea and the routing. But I'm sure this came from the club first.

The Composite is undoubtedly a better course than the West, given the great holes from the East that are included. And I love that 16E is now included given that previously you walked past this hole on the way to 17 tee

I have been lucky enough to play the Composite in a tournament (1984 Aus Open) and it was a scary thing.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

He certainly doesn't too like he has the yips. His stroke still looks and free-flowing and confident as ever. He did putt much better on Saturday when he shot 67 - as did Goggin.
My guess is that he is down on confidence, understandably after a year of poor results. Watching him hit though is as impressive as ever - and he will be back playing better before long.

I hope so.  One of the guys I truly root for.

[Thomas Dai]

Going a bit OT here, but which other venues regularly use a composite of 2 (or more) courses. I recall there was some talk that if the weather was super-wet they'd use a composite at Merion for this years US Open and I believe that Turnberry used a couple of tees from the Arran course the first few times The Open was played on the Ailsa. What others venues go composite?

As an aside, I wish they'd play a significant event over a composite course at St Andrews - starting and finishing on TOC combined with a few holes from each of the New, Jubilee and Eden. Might be interesting. Although the enthusiasts would be very aware of the differences I reckon most of the TV viewers/punters probably wouldn't know much of a difference from the regular TOC, just as long as they could still see the 1st tee, the 18th green, the Clubhouse, the Hotel, the Swilkin Burn, the green/bunker/road at the 17th and just maybe Hell Bunker.

All the best.

[Scott Warren]

The Composite course at RM having three world class reachable par fours (3W, 10W & 1E) makes it a unique beast. It's just a shame that in the current routing 3W is played first and 1W is so late in the round.

And though you lose the awesome 16W, you gain 16E.

Great to see that it doesn't matter what par they assign to the long holes, reality is they are great holes. And you don't hear people lamenting that there are 13 par fours - including eight in a row mid-round - because the holes and course are so damn good. Another proof point that par shouldnt matter.

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