Pete Dye's Importance

[David_Elvins]

I was just on a panel discussion for Brad Klein's GOLFWEEK group down in Pinehurst, with Rees Jones and Tom Fazio.  We did not agree on much, but we did agree that too many courses are built much too long, even though few have any chance of ever hosting a "top level tournament".

I could not agree with you more on this*.  A "championship course" is assumed to be great marketing but who knows if it even works.  But at the pointy end of the Golf Course architecture spectrum,  professional tournaments at places like St Andrews, Augusta and Royal Melbourne are magnificent spectacles.  If tournaments at Pete Dye's courses are great spectacles, full credit to him too, it is an architectural achievement.  

Just because poor architects copy the wrong things from the above mentioned courses - the bunker walk ins at RM, the water hazards at Augusta and the pot bunkers at St Andrews, along with their length - without any regard for what actually makes them great - width and contour - doesn't mean that we should not appreciate great tournament venues or pretend that the ability to host a top level tournament (and provide a great everyday venue) is not an important part of the architectural puzzle.  


*My two home courses measure 5300 yards and 6200 yards.

[Carl Nichols]

It wasn't just Pete's work that golfers grew tired of.  It was all of the knockoffs.

Sometimes even from architects with the same last name.

[Joe Jemsek]

I think it's important to note many of the sites Pete builds on were void of natural features or topo. GCA credits Ranyor for his engineering and recreating  templates, but considering his work at Lido I would have expect having the opportunity he would have recreated faux dunes on more sites.  

TPC Sawgrass - Swamp
PGA West - Flat Desert
Wisthling Straits - Millitary airfield
Crooked Stick - farmland
Kiawah - Ocean site, but very little topo
Teeth of the Dog - Ocean site, but very little topo
Harbor town - forest, but no topo
Long Cove - no topo

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

In musical terms, Dye could not have been a Miles Davis.
Miles was a great improvisor but didnt engineer his music, it was al talent and his maniuplations of the notes that created "that
 sound.
If Dye is assocaited with music, it has to be somebody who creates their music using synthesizers and an inventive engineer in the recording booth

Whistling Staits would be a Vangelis or a Yes or a Yanni
TPC even a Mini Vinili ...something out of nothing

[Steven Blake]

I have always been fond of Mr. Dye's work.  Although I dislike some features on many of his courses they are however a blast to play and I think while difficult as most of his courses are they are much more playable than a Nicklaus course for example. I think he is one of the best designers of 3 shot holes in the history of the golf.

We can credit him with the rebirth of golf course architecture to a level that we see today with Doak, C&C, Hanse etc. Think of the 40's, 50's and most of the 1960's as a dark time in golf course architecture. Pete ushered in a new age or rebirth with something completely different than what RTJ and Dick Wilson were designing.  And of course who can deny that fact that many of the great architects today worked for Mr. Dye and now I would say we are in a renaissance of great courses being built by guys who were influenced by Mr. Dye.  He may not be in a lot of peoples top 5 all-time lists.  But he is definitely one of the Top 5 most influential architects of all-time.  No matter your opinion on his courses he at least deserves a great deal of credit for changing the trajectory of golf course design.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pete has always been generous in his advice, to his interns and others in ASGCA.

Of course, when he talks, you tend to listen and remember.  A few things stand out. I walked a project with him where the owners asked what it was going to look like.  He traipsed left, right, forward and back and then told the owners he wasn't sure yet.  Then, when they left, he did a little dirt drawing for me, a la the Jim Urbina sand model in another thread.  The lesson was to never let the owners think a design solution is too easy to come by, even if you kinda know what you are doing.

His other direct lesson came when I was lamenting over some green contouring critiques at my first design project. (by the press, members, etc. at a soft opening)  He asked where the course was.  Upon finding out it was in Atlanta, he told me to go the next opening saying "We wanted the best greens in the state, and that means more contour than Augusta!"  I tried it, and everyone in the crowd started nodding in agreement.  I was like the guy in Animal House (she bought it! she bought it!)  The lesson: Never apologize for anything.  Everything is just the way you wanted it......(and, the bigger the tale, the easier it is to swallow.....)

I probably absorbed a few more professional lessons from Dye over the years but those are the most relatable.  BTW, got a few more good design and life lessons from Alice, too!

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff - that's interesting, and an interesting (and probably most crucial) perspective. Most of us were digging deep into PD's style/philosophy and his approach and impact and his role in history etc, while you cut right to the chase, i.e. to those things PD knew and that made him - and have kept him - a working professional in a tough and ever changing business!

Peter

[BCowan]

I plan on playing the Golf Club next summer.  I must say Radrick Farms Golf Club (Pete's 2nd Course) is very good.  A great piece of land in Ann Arbor and great routing he did.  The bunkering is Ross/RTJ.  I have talked to some from my area who have played many Dye courses and they prefer Radrick.  I hear nothing but great reviews on the Golf Club.  Sawgrass has no interest to me to play however.  The whole heroic design looks way overdone.  Radrick only has water in play on one hole.