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Tyler Kearns

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Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« on: November 12, 2013, 12:39:00 PM »
I have been invited to a wedding in Liege, Belgium this upcoming May, and am looking at playing some golf beforehand.  What are the must see courses in Belgium & Netherlands?  I have shortlisted the following;

Royal Hague
Utrechtse de Pan
Kennemer
Royal Zoute
Noordwijkse
Swinkelsche

I realize the 2013 Buda Cup was played here, so would be interested in recommendations on hotels, restaurants, driving etc. in addition to golf.

TK

Mark Pearce

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 01:36:31 PM »
Be careful of speed cameras when driving.  We didn't actually see any there during BUDA but my pocket is several hundred euros lighter for the ones we missed!

Of those courses I didn't play Kennemer of Zoute.  Of the others, de Pan was my favourite, followe by Royal Hague.  Swinkelsche is a fascinating new course and I'd strongly recommend it.  

Noordwijkse is an extraordinary piece of land with an ordinary course layed on it.  The land elevates it to be a very good course indeed but it struck me as a lost opportunity.  I seem to recall that you're a flat belly.  If I'm right, then you might really enjoy it.  For me it was just the wrong side of too difficult.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

John Mayhugh

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 01:41:44 PM »
Add Royal Golf Club des Fagnes to your list.  Spa is probably the closest need-to-see course to Liege.   Too many trees and doesn't drain as well as some others, but a really clever course.

David Kelly

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2013, 01:48:05 PM »
Be careful of speed cameras when driving.  We didn't actually see any there during BUDA but my pocket is several hundred euros lighter for the ones we missed!
This. Exactly this.  I ended up with 3 speeding tickets. So far I've only been charged $25 each from Hertz for the tickets but haven't received the actual tickets from The Netherlands yet.

Royal Spa is a definite must play if you have the time.  One of my first Simpson courses and I was very impressed.  I liked Simpson's Royal Antwerp as well but it definitely shouldn't be played over Spa in my opinion.  Royal Zoute could use a freshening from Mr. Pont in my opinion. The bunkers were looking pretty tired this summer.  
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Frank Pont

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2013, 04:39:25 PM »
Tyler,

How many days do you have?

Based on that I could give you recommendations.

But Spa is a no brainer, being 20 min from Liege.

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2013, 04:54:13 PM »
Frank,

That will depend on negotiations with my wife, but I would like to assume 3 days of golf.

TK

Frank Pont

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 05:08:53 PM »
In that case, taking driving logistics into account:

Day 1: Royal Spa & Swinkelsche  (sleep in/near Utrecht)
Day 2: Pan & Kennemer  (sleep in/near Amsterdam)
Day 3: Noordwijk & Royal Hague (sleep in/near Amsterdam)

That way your wife has some fun days in Utrecht and Amsterdam as well

I can help you out at Spa, Swinkelsche, Pan and Royal Hague,; shoot me an email when you have more fixed dates.

David Davis

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2013, 03:39:30 AM »
Tyler,

So Mark says you are a flat belly, what's that? Does that mean your a good player?

If you are then you'll most likely enjoy Noordwijkse and Royal Hague (as long as you play the back tees at Royal Hague) the best.

De Pan is a great members course with a nice friendly routing that's easy to walk. Fun, on the shorter side and the least challenging of the group. I've been playing my tournament and other rounds there in the low to mid 70's while I'm getting my butt whipped at Noordwijkse, rarely break 80 and it's my home club.

There are 3 courses I'd recommend down south. Eindhovensche, Frank's course Zwinkelsche but also Stippleberg which some argue is the best of the 3 and has won quite a few awards. They are not that far from each other and all quite fun.

If I'm in the country I'll invite you for a round at Noordwijkse, that would have to be on a weekend most likely as I'm working in Munich at the moment.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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www.lockharttravelclub.com

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2013, 08:37:54 PM »
Tyler,

You will learn that the Dutch equate a course being "good" with it's difficulty. They are a very stern and exacting people and take pride in having courses that "whip your butt." Some haven't yet learned that it is easy to create a difficult course... not so easy to create a repeatedly entertaining one.

Don't miss De Pan or Royal Hague if you can help it.

Wardo and I had a great day at Zoute. It would definitely be on my return visit list.

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2013, 08:46:15 PM »
Also, I want to reemphasize Mark's comments about the speed controls in Holland. Make sure you are not going faster than the general traffic. If all the other vehicles are going slower than you think is "Normal" there is a reason. There are long stretches of highway where vehicle speed is monitored by your AVERAGE speed over several miles. You are marked in on one end and marked out on the other... If your travel time over that stretch of road is too short you will receive a ticket! Ingenious, really.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

David Davis

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2013, 10:14:42 AM »
I just don't understand you guys and your speeding tickets (all of you have lead feet).... I never get any tickets  ;D

All you have to do is pay attention for the signs. The average speed controls are always marked with huge signs that actually say:

Traject control and show a camera. You can't miss them. There are only a few you might run into. Mainly on the A2. Secondly, the other cameras are always right next to the road and looks like a big box, not hidden from view at all. Simply look for them and your find. You can't miss them if you know what to look for. It's a 2' x 2' box on a 6 ft high pole. If you see that you have to go the speed limit right there.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

David Davis

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2013, 10:35:29 AM »
Also, I want to reemphasize Mark's comments about the speed controls in Holland. Make sure you are not going faster than the general traffic. If all the other vehicles are going slower than you think is "Normal" there is a reason. There are long stretches of highway where vehicle speed is monitored by your AVERAGE speed over several miles. You are marked in on one end and marked out on the other... If your travel time over that stretch of road is too short you will receive a ticket! Ingenious, really.


I wouldn't agree with these sentiments from Mark and Michael either. I don't think the Dutch love their golf difficult any more than the rest do. Noordwijkse is a tough course but keep in mind it's a links course with many raised, greens and average playing corridors. The greens are colonial bent grass and roll very fast for links courses. If you are not playing links golf all the time it's just simply more difficult  than parkland or heathland golf, the wind and the elements make it all that much more challenging. On top of that there is a premium put on short game as well as long game. You have to be a great chipper and putter to play well there, there are no easy shots. Noordwijkse is not that friendly for high handicappers either unless they are straight and if you are wild left and right of the fairway you will struggle. It's a course that puts a premium on course management and playing it only a couple times is just not enough to figure it out. It's also the toughest test in the country by a long shot. That's seen by the scores from the countries best players.

The yellow tees that everyone in the BUDA played from are just not that tough. Slope is 139. If you want tough, go play Pine Valley. To me that was much harder with long carries and trees everywhere.

The rest of the Dutch courses are just not that hard which means in my opinion that Mike and Mark are only referring to Noordwijkse. Which is fine, it's tough, I warned of this. Add 10 shots to your normal score if you don't know the course and let that be your par for the day. Play smart, ie don't smash your driver off all the tees.

What people have to understand is that in general courses in continental Europe have much less "feel good" maintenance practices. In the US often not a blade of grass is out of place. You can hit it anywhere (except OB and water and still have an easy play). Often here they have to make due with less greenkeeping staff and equipment. Maintenance standards are a bit lower. On the other hand so are membership fees. In The Netherlands the membership fee for a high end private club is between 1200 - 1500 USD per year. At that rate you should understand 2 things. First of all there will be a severe budget on maintenance and secondly there will be far less complaints if the rough along the fairways is a bit "rougher".

Let's see any of the top courses in other countries survive on that kind of annual revenue and little to no greenfee players being allowed.

Manage your expectations then you can start to look at things realistically in my opinion.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

John Mayhugh

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2013, 12:38:06 PM »
What people have to understand is that in general courses in continental Europe have much less "feel good" maintenance practices. In the US often not a blade of grass is out of place. You can hit it anywhere (except OB and water and still have an easy play). Often here they have to make due with less greenkeeping staff and equipment. Maintenance standards are a bit lower. On the other hand so are membership fees. In The Netherlands the membership fee for a high end private club is between 1200 - 1500 USD per year. At that rate you should understand 2 things. First of all there will be a severe budget on maintenance and secondly there will be far less complaints if the rough along the fairways is a bit "rougher".

Let's see any of the top courses in other countries survive on that kind of annual revenue and little to no greenfee players being allowed.

Manage your expectations then you can start to look at things realistically in my opinion.

During the Buda trip, I don't remember anyone complaining about conditions being "rough."  The most common complaint had nothing to do with austerity.  The conditioning problem I noticed is one of using too much water.  On most all of the courses in Holland, the surrounds (and sometimes greens) were simply too lush.  In my view, Noordwijkse is made a good bit tougher by this maintenance practice.  On a links, one ought to be able to bounce the ball onto greens.  When there are elevated greens and soft surrounds, this becomes very difficult.  For very good players, this may not make much difference.  For guys at my skill level, it really impacts scoring and enjoyment of a course.

Frank Pont

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2013, 02:09:28 PM »
Mike,

I am surprised about the austerity you attribute to the average dutch golfer. Maybe it was the crowd at Noordwijk (I wasn't there so don't know), they have some of the more competitive and low handicap golfers of the Netherlands (together with another club close to Amsterdam called Houtrak). But in general the Dutch golfer if anything lacks this desire for tough courses. And I purposely designed Swinkelsche to be enjoyable for any level of player, be it scratch or 36....

I do agree that virtually all courses in Holland are too soft and overwaterd, including many of the classic (links) courses. Thats one of the reasons I am so glad the Swinkels brothers "get it" in terms of keeping the water and fertiliser spigot off.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 04:17:41 PM by Frank Pont »

John Mayhugh

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2013, 04:00:06 PM »
Frank,

I was only replying to David's comments about our conditioning expectations. I have not even formed an opinion about what sort of courses Dutch players prefer, much less posted one. Maybe you intended to reply to Mike W?

David Davis

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2013, 04:16:23 PM »
Yes indeed that was Mike's comment. John, I agree that compared to the UK they are over watering in NL, including Noordwijkse and I'm all over that one but struggling to change it. It's more complicated than you might think. It actually has to do with our sprinkling system I've found out. The greens needs a fair bit of water and as you can attest are in excellent shape. However, they need more water because of some kind of chemical used to fight something. The way the sprinkler system is set up we are not able to give the greens enough water without over watering the green surrounds.

It's interesting you mention over watering as it's a discussion all the time with regards to the US and in comparison to the courses I've seen in the US, with the exception of Bandon Dunes every single course has had far more water than Dutch courses, including Noordwijk are receiving. The UK on the other hand seems to get this right and do an excellent job of maintaining the first and  fast conditions.

Frank and I definitely agree on the outlook of the Dutch golfers. Yes Noordwijkse and Houtrak kind of try to cultivate and bring in the top golfers but I would bet that 99% of Dutch golfers will appreciate the conditioning of Frank's course. It's however, also one of the few sand based courses. So already that makes a huge difference.

Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2013, 05:10:01 PM »
Tyler,

You will learn that the Dutch equate a course being "good" with it's difficulty. They are a very stern and exacting people and take pride in having courses that "whip your butt." Some haven't yet learned that it is easy to create a difficult course... not so easy to create a repeatedly entertaining one.

Don't miss De Pan or Royal Hague if you can help it.

Wardo and I had a great day at Zoute. It would definitely be on my return visit list.



Michael,

I had heard this rumour before, but as I get a little older I'm more concerned with having fun on the golf course, and if that means skipping play from the back tees then so be it!!

TK

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2013, 05:12:49 PM »
Also, I want to reemphasize Mark's comments about the speed controls in Holland. Make sure you are not going faster than the general traffic. If all the other vehicles are going slower than you think is "Normal" there is a reason. There are long stretches of highway where vehicle speed is monitored by your AVERAGE speed over several miles. You are marked in on one end and marked out on the other... If your travel time over that stretch of road is too short you will receive a ticket! Ingenious, really.

Mike & Mark,

Thanks for the tip regarding traffic speeds, I'll definitely keep it in mind should I rent a car.

TK

Frank Pont

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2013, 04:44:15 PM »
Tyler,

For what its worth I just collected the course ratings of LeadingCourses.com for the top Dutch courses (just rating the course, so not rating the club house, driving range, parking lot).

The results:

Noordwijk, Royal Hague and The International get a 9.0
De Pan gets a 8.9
Hilversum and Lage Vuursche get a 8.8
Kennemer, Eindhoven and Swinkelsche get a 8.6
Stippelberg gets a 8.5
Wouwse Plantage gets a 8.4
The Dutch gets a 8.3

Most courses get 60-80 serious ratings, so its not totally BS

I'm sure Ward will really like these results, especially International  :)

David Davis

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2013, 05:15:56 PM »
Leadingcourses is a Dutch site, nearly all the reviews are from Dutch golfers and with all due respect it's to say the least not reliable in any way, out of the reviews there is not a single one from anyone with enough knowledge to tell the difference between an average Polder course and a classic Colt Design.

It could however, be seen as a good indication of what the average Dutch golfing public thinks. That would be an appropriate conclusion given the fact that most of the people offering ratings have not even played the other courses in question and never seen another course outside of NL.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Frank Pont

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2013, 04:16:48 AM »
David,

One has to treat review sites with a big grain of salt, be it a group site site like Leading Courses or one written by individual "experts" like top100courses. But they all give you pieces of data that you can then use to get "customer" feedback.

LeadingCourses shows us the "wisdom of crowds" of the golfing circles in Holland, at least in the case of courses where enough votes have been submitted. There is some manipulation going on (some unlikely courses got a lot of extremely positive votes in a short time) and they know about it and try to fight it.

What is interesting is the overlap in taste between this "dumb" and "unknowing" group and us here at GCA. They get a lot right without knowing it.

Maybe Malcolm Gladwell was on to something.....
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 07:36:44 AM by Frank Pont »

David Davis

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2013, 02:04:53 PM »

Maybe Malcolm Gladwell was on to something.....

Frank, clearly you are alluding to Gladwell's best selling novel, "What the dog saw." Which I believe was his second to last. :-)
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Frank Pont

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2013, 02:18:56 PM »

ward peyronnin

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2013, 10:34:15 PM »
Tyler

Take your wife to R Zooute and play some great golf and score mucho bonus appreciation points with her and cash thew in. Go to Ghent and rock out and life is good

Nooorddjwiske is too far out of the way and not worth the trouble on ltd time. Eindhovena and De pan are lovely. Avoid the intl at all costs
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

ward peyronnin

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Re: Belgium/Netherlands Golf
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2013, 10:35:54 PM »
Actually forget Holland and play H'ardelot and stay ay Le Manoir and get even more nuptial nuggies
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman