[M. Shea Sweeney]

http://www.golfsdrivingforce.com/2013/11/deane-bemans-remarks-at-usga-pace-of.html

Interesting thoughts. Will anyone listen?

Update- from the original article as highlighted on Geoff Shackelford's Blog-
The problem of slow play, as well as the decline in the growth and financial viability of golf in the U.S., has some of its seeds from the well-intended notion that in order to identify “a worthy champion” in major championships, it was necessary to alter the playing field to accomplish that objective.

The Red Sox won the World Series and they are the undisputed world champions of baseball.  Baseball did not feel the need to add another 10 feet to get to first base, grow longer grass in the infield or move the home run fence farther out.  They also have bifurcated rules that allow a designated hitter in one league versus the other and were able to make a mutual accommodation for the World Series for the good and harmony of the game.  None of these actions would lessen the crown that Boston wears or harm baseball as a popular sport.

[Tom_Doak]

Commissioner Beman was a very sharp fellow who insisted that not everything in golf should revolve around the Tour players' whims and the equipment companies who sponsored them.

Sadly, there is pretty much no one at the PGA TOUR today who cares to listen to what the former Commissioner has to say.  The last of his top lieutenants from his days at the TOUR retired recently.  But perhaps his comments will make some sense to Mike Davis, who understands equally well what's going on out there.

[Jon Wiggett]

Interesting read but why did he wait until he could do nothing about it?  They should be aiming for a 3ball doing 18hole in three and a half hours or there abouts.

Jon

[Garland Bayley]

Why do these guys always bark up the wrong tree?

Why are there foursomes at my club that play their 18 holes in 2.5 hours with no one holding them up?
And, why are there foursomes at my club that play their 18 holes in 4.5 hours with no one holding them up?

It's not because of bifurcation, length, forced carries, green size, talent, or any of the other suggestions the article puts forth.

As Arnold has said, if you are the slowest player in your group, then you are playing two slow.

[Andrew Buck]

Interesting read but why did he wait until he could do nothing about it?  They should be aiming for a 3ball doing 18hole in three and a half hours or there abouts.

Jon

His point is simply that it's impossible to play in 3:30 if they want fields of 144  within the TV confines.  It's in the best interest of his players to have larger fields, and they need 2:10 of tee times off each tee to make 144 work.

If you only teed of #1, and started in 3balls at 7:00AM, the last group would tee off at 3:00, which doesn't work for at least half the year.

[Ronald Montesano]

As Arnold has said, if you are the slowest player in your group, then you are playing two slow.

We're not talking genius here, are we? This is an illogical quote. You are telling me that there is a slow player in your featured, 2.5 hour foursome?

[Garland Bayley]

As Arnold has said, if you are the slowest player in your group, then you are playing two slow.

We're not talking genius here, are we? This is an illogical quote. You are telling me that there is a slow player in your featured, 2.5 hour foursome?

Perhaps one could be labelled illogical if they can't figure it out.

[Ronald Montesano]

I speak in certainties, while you insist on perhaps...there is no slow player in a 2.5 hour foursome. Any attempt to split that hair begs psychological treatment.

[John Kavanaugh]

Until we accept that many golfers play too fast we will never be able to address slow play.

[Jon Wiggett]

Interesting read but why did he wait until he could do nothing about it?  They should be aiming for a 3ball doing 18hole in three and a half hours or there abouts.

Jon

His point is simply that it's impossible to play in 3:30 if they want fields of 144  within the TV confines.  It's in the best interest of his players to have smaller fields, and they need 2:10 of tee times off each tee to make 144 work.

If you only teed of #1, and started in 3balls at 7:00AM, the last group would tee off at 3:00, which doesn't work for at least half the year.

I know where you are coming from Andrew and it would be easier if the Tour admitted that slow play helps make money but then they would be ripped apart for that. However if the playing time is 3.30 then you are looking at 8 minute tee time or first tee at 7am last tee at 1.24 pm which works all year round.

Jon

[Mark Steffey]

tv golf is for tv.  they (advertisers) pay a ton of money and are now on the air for the entire leaders 18h.  the more time they get to fill with the high end products that pay the bills, the better.   if you told travelers and the other companies that pay for the ads that they'd only get half the blocks because you'd prefer the golf to be over in 2/3rds of the time they now take, you would get stares and silence.

and a solution that tells them that they will get 3 hrs of tiger/phil and the other 2hrs of rory sabatini... they are not going to be happy paying the going rate because the majority of eyes will tend to leave if they don't see the big names out there on tv.

if there is a time problem, then the problem is localized, where it is up to members to make sure the play at their club moves along as they see fit.

i prefer 2.5hr operas to 90min.  

even the nfl is extending their tv blocks to 3 1/2 hrs when a couple years ago games rarely - if ever - went past 3hrs --- and they have a set time limit!!

it's all about tv time and tv is paid for by commercials.  the more you get the more everyone makes.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

that makes sense. I guess The Open Championship being on the BBC is the reason why they got round so quick this year.

Jon

[Steve Kline]

re: NFL game times being extended (as well other sports) for commericials

That's why I DVR and skip the commercials. I don't mind sitting through a few commercials (like the Masters) but the NFL and PGA Championship are unwatchable live due to the commercials.

[Mark Steffey]

i'm just trying to say that the pga tour gains nothing by shortening up the time that it takes tiger to get his 18h in on sunday.

beman also throws out some points that don't stick with his argument.  like the tennis nets not being raised at the us open... vs courses being toughened up for the golf us open - isn't this only because the usga wants to protect 'par'?

wasn't it long ago in britain the courses would adjust par on days depending on weather, etc.  play marion as a par 64  

what is wrong with birdies?  eagles?

if i want to watch bad golf i'll ask someone to video me and view that back when i'm at home.

[Carl Johnson]

. . . even the nfl is extending their tv blocks to 3 1/2 hrs when a couple years ago games rarely - if ever - went past 3hrs --- and they have a set time limit!!  it's all about tv time and tv is paid for by commercials.  the more you get the more everyone makes.

I was just thinking about the same NFL analogy, too.  My house is an easy walk, mile or so, to the stadium where the Carolina Panthers play.  I rarely go.  Why?  All the waiting around for TV commercials just about every change of possession, during which time fans in the stadium are blasted with various kinds of noise - you can't even talk to the person next to you.  The NFL games are made for TV, not the fan in the stadium, so why go to a game in person?  The TV experience is much better.  Exact same thing with PGA Tour golf.  True, you can get a better feel for the course in person, but catching the action here and there on TV is much more convenient.

[Garland Bayley]

I know where you are coming from Andrew and it would be easier if the Tour admitted that slow play helps make money but then they would be ripped apart for that. However if the playing time is 3.30 then you are looking at 8 minute tee time or first tee at 7am last tee at 1.24 pm which works all year round.

Jon

Thanks Jon

The conductor (PGA Tour) needs to require adherence to the tempo of the opera, er... tournament.

[Patrick_Mucci]

As Arnold has said, if you are the slowest player in your group, then you are playing two slow.

We're not talking genius here, are we? This is an illogical quote.

You are telling me that there is a slow player in your featured, 2.5 hour foursome?

Ron, someone has to be the slowest player in the group.
Not necessarilly a slow player, just the slowest amongst the foursome.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Interesting read but why did he wait until he could do nothing about it?  

It's a great question.

They should be aiming for a 3ball doing 18hole in three and a half hours or there abouts.

Agreed.

The problem is the "culture" that's been created over the years and the proclivity for the viewer to emulate the best golfers in the world in terms of their manerisms and pace of play.

Jon

[A.G._Crockett]

Interesting read but why did he wait until he could do nothing about it?  

It's a great question.

They should be aiming for a 3ball doing 18hole in three and a half hours or there abouts.

Agreed.

The problem is the "culture" that's been created over the years and the proclivity for the viewer to emulate the best golfers in the world in terms of their manerisms and pace of play.

Jon

It might be instructive to research how many slow play penalties were handed down during Beman's administration.  Absent a large number, this is sort of a death-bed conversion and isn't all that interesting to me.

I don't know that a 3.5 hour pace is realistic, given what's at stake on Tour and the green speeds, etc; that's a pretty quick pace of play even for casual golf, and I've never played a tournament round in under 4 hours at the club level.

But certainly the pace of play on Tour is a major factor in the slow-play culture in the amateur game.  ONLY when there are significant and consistent penalties on Tour will anything change, and that would be a wonderful day on several fronts.  Play would speed up generally, and I could watch Furyk and Harrington and others play golf without screaming at them through my TV.

[JMEvensky]

AG,I agree with everything you said--the PGAT might have the most influence on pace of play but cares the least.

I'd be curious to hear Pat Burke's opinion on whether the PGAT would ever do anything drastic enough(penalty shots) to change things.Or,if they and the TV people are happy with things as they are.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I don't know that a 3.5 hour pace is realistic, given what's at stake on Tour and the green speeds, etc; that's a pretty quick pace of play even for casual golf, and I've never played a tournament round in under 4 hours at the club level.
...

From time to time some of the quick players draw the first tee time of the day, and go out and play their rounds in two hours. So perhaps 3.5 hours is glacial compared to what they are capable of even given what's at stake.

[Brent Hutto]

Slow play comes down to the question of what do you mean by the phrase "to play golf". For some people, including a very few Tour players, it is very close to "hit the ball, find the ball, hit it again". But the normative belief nowadays is that conversations with a caddie or playing companion about the shot at hand, tossing grass in the air, puzzling over yardage books or electronic equivalent, approaching and backing off from the ball several times, practice swings, staring blankly into the middle distance while getting your mental checklist completed...

...all of these things comprise "playing golf" to most golfers. This is because they are told that on television and in the idiotic magazines they read, they see it demonstrated by Tour players on TV as well as the guys at their golf course every weekend and it just generally gets reinforced like any other social norm. The highly paid gentlemen with PhD's bolstering all this nonsense are simply jumping on the bandwagon but they do add an aura of rationality to what in fact is just a bunch of procrastination.

Trying to change any one element of that in hopes of setting off a chain reaction or "tipping point" seem futile to me. But I guess better to try that than just give up and accept every round of golf playing the USA to take 6+ hours a decade hence.

[Thomas Dai]

I may be incorrect, but I thought I'd read somewhere years ago that Jack Nicklaus got the idea for mapping out course yardages/hazards etc in a pocket notebook from Dean Beman? Searching for exact or near-exact yardages, some may say one of the main contributors to the slowing down in the pace of play?
All the best

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I'm not sure why the discussion is all about the Tour. Here is the bottom line-- if you have never played in a big tournament then you will not understand why it takes 5 hours to play golf on the PGA Tour. 5 Hours is not bad.

The better discussion would be over DB's remarks on bifurcation, and how that changes the maintenance and architecture of golf courses.

Why do the ruling bodies have such a hallowed grip on "one set of rules". Does the average golfer, and you all on this website believe the Tour player, and guys at the Buda Cup are playing by the same set of rules anyway? For that matter, tourny's on the club pro level?

Give me a break--YOU'RE ALREADY PLAYING A BIFURCATED SET OF RULES!!!!!

Dean Deman's remarks on maintenance and architecture were so spot on. It is a must read.

Length, width, size of bunkers, outrageous native area's (but they look sooo good ), courses devoid of strategy--

The problem with the everyday golfer is that they are playing courses that are TOO MUCH for them!!!!!

Garland Bailey, why on earth should we be promoting 2.5 hour rounds? 3.5, 3.75, 4..fine. But it will only happen on a course that allows for it!!
ie: Bethpage Black effect

Recently played 36 Holes at Palmetto Golf Club on a day of a huge outing of everybody played 18++ holes. And we teed off at 9:50! No ranger, no time checks, 100+ bets, still got it done. Why? Because the course allows for it.

MS

[Garland Bayley]

I may be incorrect, but I thought I'd read somewhere years ago that Jack Nicklaus got the idea for mapping out course yardages/hazards etc in a pocket notebook from Dean Beman? Searching for exact or near-exact yardages, some may say one of the main contributors to the slowing down in the pace of play?
All the best

I thought it was from Ben Hogan.

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