Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?

[Mike_Cirba]

So good to see that SO many of the trees pictured in that aerial are NLE!!  

[JohnV]

I definitely think the current finish is stronger than the old one.  The current 1 and 2 are good short par 4s, but not something I'd like to see as 16 and 17.  The current 15 through 18 is a very good finish.  Haven't not seen the old hole, I think that the current 18th is a very good mid-length par 4 with a green that seemed to give the players trouble last week.

For those who aren't familar with the course, the extra hole to the left of the old #1 is a practice hole.  There is another 9 desgined by Tom Fazio that sits above the current 15 & 16 and to the right of the current 14th (old 1).

[mike_malone]

    Eric
  A few things stand out to me
      *so many on this site love tough finishes..Flynn's original  was a tough start--easier finish.

       *present #4 is one of my favorites,as #10 it makes for a  tough start to a nine
        *original ends with a par 5.This seems to be another thing GCAers do not like.
  *does current #18 finish into setting sun?

[wsmorrison]

Thanks for the reference, Scott.  Tom and I have a great working relationship on the Flynn project.  I find the materials and Tom explains them to me.  

Regarding Huntingdon Valley, we have a proposal by Donald Ross in October 1946 (Flynn died in 1945) that called for significant changes to the routing and individual holes including the current 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9.  None of these changes were made.  There were some changes made to 13, 14, and 15.

The changes that were made were to the par 3 13th where the pond was enlarged and the green extended a bit on the front left.  This current configuration has interesting lines and angles that tend to deceive the player on the tee as to the size of the green and the orientation.  Ian Andrew explained this very well.

The Ross plan called for moving the fairway and green site of the 14th hole to the left.  This was done.  Kirkwood put an atypical raised bunker behind the green that looks out of place.  Ian did some photoshop magic and showed me what the green would look like without the bunker---very Flynn like and sympathetic to the rest of the course.  My suggestion would be that they remove the bunker.  

Tom mentioned a different tee on 15, speculating that it may have been Kirkwood.  It looks like it was Ross.  The Ross drawing called for putting in a back tee on the 15th hole to the right along the line of play.  They were able to put this in near the location of the back of the old 14th green.

Kirkwood did alter the greens on the 2nd and 3rd holes removing a fall-off left on both that in my opinion ought to be returned to original.  The scalloped look of the alterations are also aesthetically unappealing.

[Eric Pevoto]

Mike,

I haven't seen the tree work, but in speaking with you understand that those separating the 11 and 16 greens are NLE.  It must make for a dramatic view down into the valley.  Did they do any work on #5?

Mayday and John,

I guess I'm viewing the current finish in terms of variety, which IMO may be better than the old.  Currently a long strong uphill par 3, fun short par 4, great angled, long par 4, mid length par 4.  

I'm not one to think the finish must end with a bang.  The pacing and rhythm throughout is more important IMO.  No doubt the starts to each nine were more difficult in the old progression.  From the little I've seen of Flynn, he didn't seem shy about establishing strength early in the nine (anywhere else for that matter!).  The starts at Lancaster, for example.  HVGC 1 and 2, 10, 11, and 12.  Mannies as well.

You could probably sway me on the merits of #18.  It's been a few years since I've played PCC; I certainly don't remember it as a bad hole.  Similar in character to maybe to the finish at Somerset Hills, which I think is a fun finish with so much interest around the green. It does appear to play to the w/sw.

[wsmorrison]

A study by Melville Curtis of the 1939 Open at Philadelphia CC showed the following hole by hole results of % played in par or under from most difficult to easiest:

12 (480y par4)  32.5
8 (479y par4)  44.5
2 (234y par3)  48.3
1 (450y par4)  51.0
10 (454y par4)  51.2
13 (206y par3)  51.9
4 (453y par4)  55.2
6 (447y par4)  56.8
5 (425y par4)  58.8
7 (191y par3)  64.1
14 (394y par4)  65.5
3 (384y par4)  68.2
15 (421y par4)  68.2
18 (558y par5)  70.2
11 (169y par3)  70.6
9 (350y par4)  71.5
17 (363y par4)  74.4
16 (328y par4)  76.8

This shows what the best players of the day were capable of.  Remember that the par for the Open setup was 69; the  8th and 12th were normally played as par 5s so the above ranking would be different for the average player.  For the typical club player, I believe that the par 5 18th (current 3rd) would have been one of the more difficult holes on the course.

The old finish of 12 thru 18 was all over the compass making for great variety under windy conditions.  However, the holes are not as difficult as the finish under the current routing progression.  I agree with JohnV that the current routing progression offers a tougher finish with the demands of 14, 15, 16, and 17.  I'm not a fan of the current 18th (especially as good as the old 5th was).  Given the slope and internal contours of today's green, the 18th green does demand a precise shot albeit with no more than a 8 or 9 iron, often a wedge, for most good players.  

When you think about it, given the changes made to the routing progression, the course works out great today.  The start is terrific as is the finish.  I guess a course that flows so well start to finish allows you to make such changes to the progression without it all falling apart.

[Mike_Cirba]

Eric;

The view between 11 & 16 is indeed fabulous, and almost catches you breathlessly as you come over the crest of the hill on 16.  The greens are almost intertwined, as one of our group placed his tee shot on 11 into the back bunker on 16...very similar to the adjoining greens at Fenway.

I believe that some minor clearing may have been done on #5, but it's still a pretty narrow corridor and a very scary shot.  

[Willie_Dow]

But your analysis fails to project the sequence of holes.  What leads up to the final analysis.

Flynn seemed to project the game, I think.  He was a good golfer, and he projected the challenge of the match.  Sam Snead met his challenge of those final holes.

Only a projection!

Willie

[Eric Pevoto]

Can't get it to show, but follow this link to see the comparison of hole progressions:

Phila CC Comparison

[wsmorrison]

Nice job, Eric.  Today's yardage from the black and blue tees:
1  325/313     10  437/417
2  353/341     11  192/181
3  585/559     12  580/542
4  470/455     13  365/380
5  167/167     14  477/436
6  500/491     15  225/214
7  211/202     16  403/391
8  391/380     17  460/444
9  416/404     18  392/381

[Eric Pevoto]

Wayne,

Ah, the wonders of excel and html!  I've updated the comparison.  

It floors me and never realized that a US Open was played at par 69.  At least not that late, 45 years or so into them.  Imagine trying that today!  

You've sent me to the history books.  

[Mike_Cirba]

For anyone looking for more exposure to this very fine and underrated course (in my opinion), I'm pleased to remind everyone that Philadelphia Country Club will co-host the medal rounds of the 2005 US Amateur, along with Merion.

What a week that should be.  Frankly, I find myself wishing I could be in two places at the same time!!

[mike_malone]

 Mike Cirba
      I am interested in some of your specific thoughts as to why you see Philly Country as #1 or #2  Flynn in area.
   I am not impressed by the front nine versus other Flynn's in the area.
   How do you see it?
    I really like #4,but #1 and #2 back-to-back seem ok at best-(-2 short holes in a row)  #8 and#9 seem very bland(i know the land is bland ,but....)
I do not like the tree by the left bunker on #5,seems to be a double hazard to me and restricts left to right shot.


   I hate to get you into a two front battle(you have been active in the HC thread)

[Mike_Cirba]

mayday;

As you know, we're really fortunate around here to have so many great examples of Flynn's work.  Trying to decide between them is certainly splitting hairs.  For sheer challenge, I'd probably pick Rolling Green, for instance, as the difficulty of the greens are unsurpassed.  It's a course that tends to beat you down unless you're really striking it to the correct places.  

Actually, my favorite Flynn in the area is Huntingdon Valley, as the way the course is maintained really accentuates the ground game and contours of the property.  Talk about a course where you have to think and be on your toes!

In the case of Philly CC, I agree with your comments that 8 and 9 are sort of bland, although I do like the configuration of the 9th green quite a bit.  Ditto on the tree on 5...it's not needed and that hole is frightening enough without that bit of overkill.  The non-Flynn 18th hole is also sort of an anti-climactic finisher.

What do I like?  Oh man...just about everything else!  The course is graceful and drapes across the land in such a naturally flowing way.  The first three holes are a blast, followed by the rigors of 4 & 5.  Six is a fun, gambling par five, and 7 is a somewhat redanish par three.  However, I think we'd probably agree that the back nine is where PCC really shines, and the par threes as a group (typical of Flynn) are varied and really interesting.

I also LOVE the look and playability of the bunkering at PCC and Ron Forse with Mike McNulty have done an amazing job that I'd love to see emulated at other Flynn's in the area.  The tree removal that has taken place has only added to the beauty and playability of the course.  They've done a lot of really positive things there in recent years, and I applaud them for it.  From those who visited for the Girls AM, it seems that people like JohnV were HIGHLY impressed, as well.  

In thinking about it, it's the difference between fun and challenge where I split the final hair between PCC & RG.  It's the old NGLA vs Shinnecock discussion, with both being superb, but finally asking yourself, which would I rather play every day?    

[eaglepower]

Mayday,

I think that the front nine at Philly is very strong.  1 and 2 are great short fours,  and are so different from one another that playing them back to back is not an issue.  For some reason no one ever complains about two long holes back to back. 3 and 6 are two great fives, I think better than most Flynn par fives in the Philly area (you know my issue with Rolling Green's par fives.  If you add 7 to 17 and 18, I think that 3 of the 4 par fives are the real weakness of the course.). The two threes are great, with 7 being one of the underrated holes on the course.  You agree that 4 is a great hole, while I think you have a point about 8.  I think if 9 were alone, and not right after 8, you would see that as an above average four.

That is my defense of Philly as Flynn's best area course.  I know you get mad at my Rolling Green criticisms, no offense is intended.

One final note, although I will defend the current routing, as TEPaul pointed out,  Flynn's original routing had 1 and 2 on the back nine.

[mike_malone]

 Mike
   Your comments are always well said.I think tree removal at PCC has smitten you,and it should.If RG opened up its views through the course like PCC has you would change your mind .We just have a more beautiful piece of property.Someday ,maybe we can see it.

[Mark_Fine]

Interesting discussion.  Question for the group - If you were going to send someone to one course to look at Flynn's purest work, which one would you send them to?  

I'm not going to get into an arguement which Flynn is "the best".  Like someone said, we are fortunate to have so many great ones in the area and we all have our favorites and all with good reason.  

For "conditioning" I think there is no doubt, all us purists would send that person to HV.  But for bunkering, greens, trees, routing,..., etc that is most representative of Flynn, where would you send them?  To me, that is "Flynn's" best work?  

Think about it this way, would you send someone to Augusta as an example of Mackenzie's best work?  

[Mike_Cirba]

mayday;

I must admit that the tree removal adds to the visual luster of PCC, no question, but it also increases the playability.  You and I have talked about some additional tree removal at Rolling Green and I know we're in total agreement.  

RG can be so damn tough at times that I rarely feel that I have real opportunities for birdie, etc.  If the sloping fairways don't get you, the greens will!  

eaglepower;

What do you think about 18 at RG now that it's a par four from the back tees?    

[eaglepower]

Mike,

I love the change of 18 to a four, but I think it supports my argument that it was a weak five.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark Fine;

You'll probably be surprised at my answer...

I think Flynn would be rather pleased at the current state of a number of his courses, and you know as well as I that Lehigh is VERY high among them.

However, if I were to take someone to a course to understand the genius, routing and otherwise, of William Flynn...

I would have taken them to Merion with the new tree removal and the old bunkers.  

Before you all beat me down about Hugh Wilson, I think it's important to remember that Flynn was at Merion from almost the very beginning, and worked on that course for probably 20 years.  I've seen his drawings from the 20s of Merion, and he had as much to do with the greatness there as anyone.

[mike_malone]

 Mark
 First off, i am thinking of "Flynn's work".One thing that i can see at RG is the difference between Flynn's work which is marvelous at this course and the coverup that took place in the 70's.If we uncover his work and reverse the changes RG  itself made  we can only rise in appeal.
    When i was out at PCC last week around #13 and#14,i could appreciate the way he lays down holes on the sideslope which leaves that subtle lie that is never flat.The views across this part of the course are beautiful.If trees frame these holes much of the effect is lost.
    Would we need to think about how he dealt with less than ideal land to truly judge his work?I think not.As i looked up toward the PCC clubhouse i could imagine the holes running up and down the hill --boring.He places them around the hill---wonderful.

   I have yet to get to Shinnecock(if anyone sees that as a plea for an invite --you are right),so i can only speak about the Philly area.

  I think it cannot be one course,because his work is best judged by the subtle differences between each of his gems.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Your answer doesn't surprise me at all.  I don't think there is a right answer to my question but your suggestion is a very good one.  I agree 100% that Flynn had a heavy hand at Merion.  He also did a lot of work at Pine Valley but that is another story.

Mayday,
You make good points as well and it does certainly help to see a wide range of his courses.  But at the same time, when you visit these courses, one needs to understand what was Flynn and what wasn't!   Would you take someone to PCC to show them pure Flynn greens?  Would you take them to RG to show them pure Flynn bunkers?  That was really the point of my question.  I think it was Shackelford who at one time suggested that less than 10% of the Golden Age architects work is still around to be studied.  

By the way, I liked your analogy about the basketball teams.  As I said before, whether Lehigh is #83 or #183, it belongs somewhere up there as do some of Flynn's other courses.  

Mark

[mike_malone]

 Mark
    How would you rate the features that were important to Flynn?I think routing and green complexes were at the top of his list.I seem to recollect that discussion on this site placed bunkers lower in the ranking.So,when you and that other guy on here call RG's bunkers as non-Flynn,i do not disagree.I just do not attach as much importance to this feature.But if PCC has changed many of the green contours and also has changed the routing--wow!! that is a significant deFlynnization
    As you said ,very little of classics original features still exist.But,when it comes to the really important features places like Rolling Green have maintained the routing and the greens' size and internal contours almost 100%.Most of the other features such as tees,hazards,and bunkers are very close AS TO LOCATION.Obviously,the trees are quite different.

 That is what makes me optimistic in our continued restoration efforts.All we really need is an axe.

[Mark_Fine]

Mayday,
Green complexes include the surrounds and in the surrounds are often bunkers so I would argue bunkers are very important to the original integrity of a golf course.  Lehigh's restoration was driven primarily because of the bunkers.  Everything else - green expansion, trees, fairway mowing patterns,... continued on from there.
Mark

[wsmorrison]

To answer the question about where somebody should go to see the "purest" Flynn, I think we are fortunate in that although many of his courses have seen changes over the years, it isn't as much as most other architects' work from the 20s and 30s.  The one aspect of design that is least changed in Flynn's body of work would seem to be the routings...he was that good at it and they endure because of the built in elasticity.  

When you visit a Flynn course, it is hard to imagine an improved routing.  I do question one hole.  Why didn't Flynn make the 8th at Philly Country a dogleg left hole?  He had a lot of room on the right side of the 8th fairway and then 8 and 9 would not be back to back near straightaway holes.

Two courses come to mind if you want to see them as close to the drawings and as built and they are out of the Philly area; Shinnecock and Kittansett.  Even though Shinnecock has been lengthened over time, that was Flynn's intention and he allowed for it in the initial design.  These two courses are really on when it comes to design integrity.  Kittansett still looks nearly 100% like the original drawings and earliest aerial photographs.  It still has the "interrupted fairways" that Flynn was designing in the early 20s, very much the result of the Pine Valley influence.  This design tendency was often not built as drawn on other courses or lost over a short period of time.

I think the Cascades Course, CC Brookline, and Eagles Mere are also great examples of courses that are close to the Flynn construction era as they come.

As to Merion, well it is still early in the research process to make definitive statements regarding a definitive design history, it is surely fascinating and will make for good reading  .  Yes the fairways are narrower but can be easily changed.  It has been discussed at length that the finish and playability of the bunkers are currently different than the Wilson/Flynn era, but the locations of the bunkers, the greens themselves, and the routing are all great examples of great architecture.

Regarding Pine Valley, I don't think you can make a strong case for much Flynn design work.  He was really instrumental in agronomics though and took charge in 1918 of regrassing the entire course when they lost the grasses.  He added some tees, redid some bunkers, built the alternate 9th green to Alison's specs, and probably was in charge of construction of the last 4 holes after Crump's death under the auspices of Alan and Hugh Wilson.

It is true that for playing conditions, nothing tops Huntingdon Valley.  It is one of my top Flynn courses and I think the best original design in the area.  It would be a great venue for ANY championship from local to national (think US Open).

For bunker placement I think Shinnecock, Brookline, and Merion are tops.  Alas, I would also say Boca Raton South  if it were still around.  For the finish look of the bunkers, I'd pick Merion 1981.  As for present day bunkering, I'd take Shinnecock, Brookline, and Philly Country.

For greens and surrounds, I do like Rolling Green quite a bit-but might go with Indian Creek (even though I've only seen it through materials sent to me from Joe Pantaleo, the head super, and photos by Craig Disher).  There are numerous courses where the greens are little changed, certainly Philly Country is not one of them and may be among the most changed.

For a Flynn course that is pure in terms of the use of trees, that is a difficult question.  I'd like to know how Tom Paul would answer it.  Perhaps Shinnecock.  This was also a fascinating use of trees given the topographical differences of the front and back nines.

I'd agree with Mike Cirba.  If Flynn could see his courses today in the context of changes to classic courses in general he would be pleased.  He would not be surprised, he thought that much ahead and planned properly.

As an engineering effort, the Cascades was an amazing effort, but I'd go with Indian Creek.  They had to build that course up from dead level 2 feet above sea level.  Amazing feat!

In my view, the biggest losses to the Flynn body of work are that Boca Raton North and especially South courses and Mill Road Farm no longer exist, followed somewhat closely by the loss of the 2nd course at Eagles Mere and Opa Locka in Florida (maybe these would be in Dan Wexler's 3rd volume of lost courses in the unlikely event he was to do another).