Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?

[redanman]

I wish I'd seen Michele Wie play that hole because she's got the firepower to challenge that left bunker.

Aree Song, all 98 pounds of her, carried directly over it Friday afternoon leaving 81 yards to the middle.

Agree #13 with its big ledge is the most Maxwellian, but after watching the match I followed on Friday , the lines blur so much that "clearly Maxwell" is hard to assign to others than 2,maybe 7 and 9, 13 of course, probably 17. 18 is really hard to say as in its own way it strongly resembles #3 Lehigh.
And as I so obliquely referred to earlier, how much does absolute purity matter?

Was Joe Burdick at Phila CC?  

[TEPaul]

There may be a logical reason many of those greens at Philly C.C look like a combination of Flynn and Maxwell or perhaps don't look as much like Maxwell as some think of him.

Reputedly the greens seemed to have had drainage and subsurface problems but I've heard that both Flynn's originals and also Maxwell's rebuilds did too--so who knows all that may have gone on over the years with those greens.

But assuming that Maxwell did work on fixing some original Flynn green drainage and subsurface problems it may be logical to assume that Maxwell did not come in and blow up the entire green shapes, surrounds and all. Perhaps he simply came in and took out the green bed construction and soil, redid drainage and basically rebuilt internal contours of his own but working off of Flynn's basic surround structure and surround grades. Basically reamed out the green bed and started again from the center with his own grades and contours but matching back to the original Flynn circumferences.

Ironically this is exactly what Flynn did to 17 greens at GMGC which was Ross but Flynn did not alter Ross's green shapes or apparently Ross's internal green contours either.

[DJames]

Philadelphia CC is exquisite!  I'm sorry that I'm not there now watching the finals...Go Virada!

The young women that I watched play are going to have a tremendous impact on the LPGA in a few years.  Who knows, they may have to redefine Women's Seniors down to 40!

My wife and I enjoyed the Women's Amateur rounds so much that we've decided to try to arrange to get to Oakmont for the US Amateur.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I have not played Philly CC for a number of years, and I have never played the new Fazio 9. I am curious, does it fit in to the traditional Spring Mill/Flynn or does it stand out similar to the new course at Philly Cricket?

[TEPaul]

"I am curious, does it fit in to the traditional Spring Mill/Flynn or does it stand out....."

Mike:

It stands out.

[Willie_Dow]

Mike

I have not played the new nine either.  Although, I was a member for almost 30 years.  My love for that course was totally restored today.  Had it not been for the rerouting of the original 18, and the subsequent remodeling of greens #1 and #8, I would never have left PCC.

Funny how old timers think!

Willie

[TEPaul]

"Had it not been for the rerouting of the original 18, and the subsequent remodeling of greens #1 and #8, I would never have left PCC."

Willie:

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Where you went isn't exacly chopped liver.

[wsmorrison]

Redanman,

I think you are looking too hard for Maxwell.  Granted, at times where it does exist, other times where it may not, and at least once where it cannot.  

From the Curtis letter and other archival materials, from walking the course with Chris Clouser, who has seen more of Maxwell than anyone I know, and walking the course and speaking at length with Mike McNulty and others,  it appears to me that he only reworked the internal contours of a few of the greens and addressed, as Tom Paul said, the settling issue of some greens within the Flynn outlines.  A few have suggested that 13 (you say "of course" but without proof, so it can only be conjecture) might be the best example of a Maxwell so I'll look at that with greater consideration next time I'm over there.

Don't forget that the current 18th green did not exist until 1956 when the clubhouse moved thus ruining what was once the splendid long par 4 5th (the tee is now of the current 18th).  I believe it was built by William and David Gordon.  If you see any Maxwell in it, it is sympathetic at best or imagined.  Given that Gordon may very well have been the construction supervisor for Flynn at Lehigh, it may explain why there is a general commonality apparent to you.

[TEPaul]

redanman;

You think #18 PCC strongly resembles #3 Lehigh?? Whoa that's a stretch! To me it does seem sort of like a Gordon with its pinched in front and wider rear which may be a bit like Flynn's #3 Lehigh but that's about all.

[redanman]

Tom

1- You over read what I said about Maxwell.  I really don't see much I clearly assign to Maxwell.  Also, I really don't think if Maxwell did some green work that it makes something "not Flynn".

2- The drainage contours of #3 LCC and #18 PCC are similar, that's the way I didn't specify.  The slopes are severe on both greens, back to front and to the centers.

When I mean really similar I say things like "nearly exactly" or "almost exactly".  

Don't worry about it.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike

I have not played the new nine either.  Although, I was a member for almost 30 years.  My love for that course was totally restored today.  Had it not been for the rerouting of the original 18, and the subsequent remodeling of greens #1 and #8, I would never have left PCC.

Funny how old timers think!

Willie

Willie,

Did they reroute when they either rebuilt or built the new clubhouse. Where was the old?

[wsmorrison]

Mike,
Willie is working the PA Amateur at Stonewall.  I hope you don't mind if I answer for him.  The old clubhouse and locker room are the mediterranean style buildings down the hill from the 14th tee just off Lafayette Road.  The locker room was the building closer to the 14th hole (formerly the 1st).  The current 14th used to be the first hole.  I guess when the club wanted a swimming pool and tennis courts they decided to move up the hill to the present site.  It does offer some great views of the golf course but at the expense of the great 5th.  As Willie told me the other day, it is too bad they did not buy the property available to the right of the 3rd fairway for the expanded recreational amenities.

[eaglepower]

I watched quite a bit of the women's amateur this week and was very surprised and pleased with Philly CC.  I (regretfully) haven't been able to play it since the renovation.  I think the improvements were many and very evident.  Particularly the lengthing of 3,10,and 12 were great modernizations of Flynn's old gem.  The course is now able to handle the modern tournaments unlike most of the other Philly area Flynns where two iron wedge would dominate the par fours.
      The par 3's at Philly are outstanding and the finishing combination of 17 and 18 are two great par fours, which I like a lot more than some of Flynn's other Philly area finishes, notably Rolling Green's bland par 5's which I think take away from an otherwise solid track.
    So while most have already weighed in with their opinions,  I'd like to throw my vote to Philly CC as the best Philly area Flynn.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's the aerial of PCC, which was AOTD #284, (and thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1725 )

The principal's nose bunker on #16 in front of the green can
hardly be seen in the shadows.

[TEPaul]

eaglepower;

Philly C.C's present 18th is not a Flynn hole. Flynn's hole in that area went from near the present 18th tee about throug the present swimming pool to about where the practice putting green now is. It was the 5th hole in Flynn's routing. The rest of the holes are Flynn holes but in a different routing progression.

From #1 to #18 Flynn's routing progression went like this;

Front nine; #14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 10, 11, 12, 13
Back nine; #4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 1, 2, 3

[eaglepower]

TEPaul,

It's interesting to see Flynn's original routing.   It made for a dramatic finish (although Slammin' Sammy probably didn't think so).  

As the true Flynn expert in the Phiily area, which other of his courses has been rerouted?  A rerouting can change the entire character of the course.  Was Rolling Green rerouted?  How about Lehigh or Huntington?  Thanks in advance

[mike_malone]

 Rolling Green has never been rerouted.We would not want to disapoint eaglepower.He loves to complain about #17 and #18,even though he misses the beauty and playability of these two holes.

[eaglepower]

Mayday,

First of all, I wasn't going to say anything critical of Flynn or Rolling Green.  Contrary to what you might think, I recognize Flynn's genius and his contributions to America's golf landscape.  My point was to say that Philly CC was great in it's original routing and remains great today.

Your response does get me on a subject I didn't wish to.  As Picasso surely painted less than masterpieces, Motzart wrote less than perfect pieces, so too did the great golf course archetects.  You surely don't think everything Flynn did was great, do you? That would be myopic.

Rolling Green, a wonderful course, does suffer from a ho-hum ending, in my opinion. I'm sorry if you think I complain about these holes.  I really wanted to know about rerouting.

[mike_malone]

 eaglepower
   It seems that Flynn made an effort to pick his spots.He wrote that a great property is important for a great golf course.Certainly Rolling Green is a great property.The other Flynns i have played HVCC.,Philmont,Lehigh,PCC,Manufacturers all have great land.
    While i am biased i think RG's land is the best  

 So, i am sure he did not do everything perfect,but i am not confidant criticizing his work.It seems to me his choices are better than mine or anyone else i have met yet.
    There are  limitations in all these properties,i.e.#8 and#9 PCC,so he made do

[Mike_Cirba]

Actually, Philmont CC is the Flynn course where he was hampered by what appears to be an unsolveable riddle, because the course today is still held back by the limitations of the property he was given.

Because the South course already existed, and because the clubhouse had already been located, Flynn was forced to consider how to get from there to the much better land on each nine that starts several hundred yards and a sharp left hand turn away from the clubhouse.  Unfortunately, the property he had to use to create this "bridge" is narrow, and sharply side-sloped.  

So, what you are left with are the weakest holes on the course at the start and finish of each nine.  As a result, the first hole is ok, the 9th is horrendous, and is the worst Flynn hole I've ever seen, and both 10 and 18 are fairly lame, as well.

It's a shame, because some of the "middle" holes on each nine are just fabulous.  

[TEPaul]

eaglepower;

HVGC, Rolling Green, Lehigh have not been rerouted since Flynn. There've been some minor alterations to some holes but not in a rerouting sense. For instance Flynn's #14 hole at HVGC was a par 5 (I think) with it's green about 90yds in front of the tip tees on #15 (to the right of present #14 green). #15 had a tee near where the tip tees on #5 are now. It may have been Flynn that did this but I have a feeling it was HVGC long time and fascinating pro Joe Kirkwood. #15 was a par 4 originally, now a par 5. Manufacturers put an alternate 18th green on the hill by the clubhouse as a par 5 but other than that the routing of those Flynn courses is basically intact.

[mike_malone]

 Mike
 Thanks for your info on Philmont.I have often said"Once you get away from the clubhouse there are some wonderful holes".The rest represents the majority of the course that sits on some neat land.

[eaglepower]

TEPaul,

Thanks for all the information.  You are truly the one authority on Flynn.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Eagle,

Wayne Morrison is the co-author-to-be/co-researcher with Tom Paul for their upcoming book on Flynn.  Just giving Wayne his 'Flynn expert' props!

[Eric Pevoto]

Here's the PCC routing with the old/new hole progressions.  Remarkably, with perhaps the exception of the 5th/18th, the course IMO didn't suffer when changed.  The beginning holes of the old progression were certainly a strong start and now provide for an exciting finish (minus 18).

Any differing opinions?