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redanman

Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« on: August 07, 2003, 10:57:01 AM »
Anyone who wants can see the course and walk with the players for free this week and I encourage all to do so.

Intelligent tree management, maintenance meld, clever par 3's, stronger par 5's than most all the the other Flynns, a great, not awkward or severe piece of property all contribute.

The level of play is really tremendous in this group of pre-LPGA stars.

Great opportunity to see a really intelligent, great presentation of a very fine course.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2003, 10:57:43 AM by redanman »

zmatzkin

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2003, 11:05:25 AM »
I'm planning on trying to get out there tomorrow.  I spent a summer working on the grounds crew 14 years ago...

Medalist Aree Song just won her first match today, but unfortunately her sister lost...they would have played eachother this afternoon...

If anyone is interested, the website has live scoring:
http://www.uswamateur.org

Zach

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2003, 11:20:30 AM »
 I think it is very difficult to choose one good Flynn course over another.I found myself trying to compare PCC to RG and realized it was a waste of time--both are great!!!I could probably do the same with Lehigh and HVCC.
 I do agree that the tree removal is awesome.The view down the 10th to the river valley is beautiful.
     
    I had heard about the straight uphill #15 par 3,but what i saw was more interesting.The hill stops some 20 yards before the green.Flynn provides some flattish runup area before the green.Very appealing.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2003, 11:24:37 AM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2003, 11:44:03 AM »
Not having played Philly Country before the tree removal I really can't comment on the before/after.  i can say that, after Lancaster(and not having played lehigh),  i would put philly country and hvcc at the next level and then  manny's/RG/and possibly philmont because of the greens   right up there as the top flynns in gap, but like mayday said u can't really compare the upper-echelon flynn's.

while lancaster is my favorite, and i feel the most well designed of the flynns, Philly Country just has a different feel to it than most flynn's, the tree removal im sure had a lot to do with it.  

when im at RG, Philmont, Lancaster, and to a certain degree Manny's, I can just feel that it is flynn just by lookin at the course.  

Philly Country, perhaps because of the great piece of land, and wonderful views feels different.  someone once said to me about philly country that its the only course in philadelphia where you feel like your playing in california.  
why it is not mentioned in the top 5 in philly i will never understand, i would play philly country over aronimink 9 days out of 10.  
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

DJames

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2003, 12:13:28 PM »

I had the opportunity to attend yesterday afternoon -- GREAT time!  Not only was it DRY with periodic sunshine, but there was also one heck of a playoff!   8)

Aside from the excellent layout, I was truly impressed at the condition of the course given all of the rain the area has had -- the drainage system has been given a real test and thus far, has passed with flying colors!

I also encourage everyone who will be in the Philly area now through Sunday to take advantage of this great opportunity.  I'm on my way to go back this afternoon!   :)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2003, 12:52:05 PM »
My wife and I are going to try to get out there Saturday and/or Sunday PM.

Also, the weekend matches will be on ESPN2, so set your TiVo's to see the great players on a great course!

Also check out http://www.uswamateur.org/course/index.html# for a course description and pics.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2003, 12:55:46 PM by danherrmann »

TEPaul

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2003, 05:53:21 PM »
It is strongly believed, particularly by the super (Mike McNulty) who's done a ton of research on the evolution of Philly CC that 17 and probably all of the green surfaces at PCC are Perry Maxwell--not Flynn. Maxwell worked on the course in the 1930s when the drainage on PCC's putting greens apparently caused some real problems.

On the other hand, at my course, Gulph Mills (Ross 1916) about two miles away, when our original Ross greens went bad in the early 1920s Flynn came in there and fixed 17 of them for $650 per green causing our greenskeeper, John Reid (ACCC), to get so pissed off he wasn't asked to do it, he quit!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2003, 08:26:29 PM »
I was just down to see PCC today with Wayne Morrison and the course did indeed look impressive.  We both agreed that many of the greens show Maxwell features (more abrupt contours) than is typical of Flynn.  I thought most of the bunker work was outstanding but I expected nothing less.

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2003, 09:03:51 PM »
Hope to be there on Sunday.  Driving down from New England.
What a great course!  Played it before the routing was changed to accomodate their new club house in 1956, I think.


wsmorrison

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2003, 09:32:29 PM »
Although not certain, I tend not to agree that all or nearly all the greens at PCC are by Maxwell.  Admittedly, I have not seen enough of Maxwell to be as definitive as Tom Paul or others.  And I certainly have not done the exhaustive work that Mike McNulty (who I have the highest regard for) has. But my feeling is that 2, 4, 8, and 10 (former 17, 1, 14, and 6) seem to be Maxwell greens.

Melville Curtis (chairman of the golf committee for the 1939 US Open) wrote in a July 7, 1938 letter to the club VP about the club and plans to implement for the Open:

"This (PCC) was designed by Mr. Flynn and then remodeled under Mr. Clark by a Mr. Maxwell.  The changes were made because the greens that were built up by filled dirt began to settle a little which threw the ball to one side.  Also to make the course easier for the average player.  They left the long teees (sic) and drives and then eased up the approach shots.  This is contrary to the theory of golf course design that has been accepted for a number of years, which is to tighten the approach to the green and then for the average player to shorten the drive so he can have as easy a shot with a 200 yard drive as the professional has with a 275 yard drive."

The letter goes on to say:

"to lengthen some holes a little to make up for the tremendous distance that the professionals now drive and shoft (sic) the back tee at the 6th hole which Mr. Maxwell changed from a right hand to a left hand hole and on which he should have changed the tee."

Maxwell may have moved the 10th (old 6th) tee a bit from the original Flynn plan.  The tee is clearly different than Flynn's original design on the materials I have on hand.  However, Flynn's drawing seems to match the hole today as regards the fairway and green location.  There was no pond in between this hole and the present 6th (former 12th); it was a creek that was dammed at some point.  This makes it difficult to be certain...I'll have to show it to Tom Paul and we'll figure it out with careful measurements.  

As to the greens that Maxwell changed, Curtis writes on page 2 of the letter:

"There are two other things I would like to do; (a) There are three or four greens that were rebuilt by Mr. Maxwell.  These do not drain because he did not make the proper foundation.  If we have a heavy rain, they have large puddles, some of which do not drain for a day or more.  I would dislike to have this happen next June, but should we have heavy rain at that time, we could rent a compressed air drill which would remedy the defect for the tournament."

"Some time these greens should be plowed up and rebuilt but it is a big job."

"Incidently, we have placed tile drains in some of these but the clay prevents the drainage to the tile."

The second thing Curtis wanted to do was have a foreward tee on the 2nd (current 15th) a long uphill par 3 to make it more in line with typical member ability.

In a July 12 letter to Mr. Curtis, Wm Flynn wrote about his suggestions for changes to the course for the upcoming Open.    This is a fascinating letter that will most certainly be in our book.  The archives at PCC are quite interesting and informative.  Mike McNulty did a great job of preserving and recording the club's documents and made them available to Tom and myself.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2003, 09:35:50 PM by wsmorrison »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2003, 10:55:20 PM »
Bill;

With changing jobs, I haven't been able to get back to you.
 
My apologies, mi amigo.

As far as your question, Philly CC is one of my very favorite Flynn courses near Philly.  Still, I fell in love with Huntingdon Valley last year and the use of the ground game out there as well as the maintenance meld just makes it a tad more exciting than Philly.  

We're very fortunate around here to have such a grand plethora of Flynn masterpieces.  At best, we're splitting hairs, but since that is what this board is superb at, I'll put HV at the top of my personal list, followed closely by the underrated Philly CC, whose restoration efforts by Mike McNulty with Ron Forse consulting are worthy of admiration and emulation.

I must admit that I haven't played Lancaster, which is a personal character flaw I hope to someday soon remedy.  

TEPaul

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2003, 11:46:28 PM »
redanman;

Could you translate post #11--maybe just a little bit?


JohnV

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2003, 10:33:29 AM »
Since the only other Flynn I've seen in the Philadelphia area is Lehigh, I won't comment on whether it is the best in the area or not, but after watching play there for 4 days I will say that it is a wonderful course.  The 3rd may be one of the best par 5s I've seen anywhere.  17 is a wonderful par 4 from the tee that the women are using (425 yards), but I'm not so sure about it from the tee that is further back and right as the trees seem to take out the options.  16 is a neat downhill par 4 that really requires smart play, while 15 is an excellent par 3.  There really are no dogs on the course.

Flynn's fairway bunkering is among the best I've seen.  The way the holes require different shots based on how far you want to/can hit it is a art that many modern architects just don't understand.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2003, 11:00:06 AM »
 John V
    I agree with your assessment on #17 back tee.I wonder if that was added later.It certainly forces shots away from the dogleg.It is very easy to ruin strategy on holes.
AKA Mayday

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2003, 11:07:25 AM »
Wayne:

A comment or two re PCC.  I'm sure glad you postponed your visit north today.  We are really getting a deluge up here!

It is interesting to read your comments from Melville Curtis notes prior to the 1939 Open.  Based on Flynn's participation as green superintendent at Merion I was always sure he was the expert on drainage.  Now I think it may have been Joe Valentine's knowhow.

Marshall Farnham had much to do with changes to some of the greens after the rerouting in 1956.  Perhaps Mike McNulty has notes of his input as green superintendent at that time.  But I distinctly recall his changes to the 8th green (formerly #14).  It was a wonderful two tier green, left and right mounds with a swale down the middle.  A typical little shallow bunker was just behind the left tier.  Farnam (sp?) also dramatically changed the present 1st green (formerly #16) because it was so challenging that it slowed up play.  It was a very small green with lots of contour from rear to front.  Tightly bunkered.  What a great set up of finishing holes!

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2003, 11:18:52 AM »
does the 15th at philly country remind anyone else of the 14th at Stonewall?
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

wsmorrison

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2003, 11:25:42 AM »
Bill,

Flynn and Toomey (an engineer) were quite proficient with drainage, both surface and subsurface.  This is apparent on so many of their courses.  Don't give up on the notion that the drainage work at Merion didn't benefit from Toomey and Flynn just yet (though I am sure that Joe Valentine was an integral factor in a lot of the improvements over the years).  

It may be that the problem with the raised greens settling at Philly Country was due to the construction crew or maybe the architect and crew combination.  1926-1928 were busy years for Flynn, but given the stature of the Philly CC project, I would think he gave it a lot of attention.  Let's not forget, it was apparent that Maxwell's work didn't solve all the problems either--they had problems with pooling of water on the greens after Maxwell visited.  

Bill, your post on Farnham's work was the first I've heard of that.  I'll have to speak with Mike McNulty about that and learn more.  As regards the present 1st, former 16th, Flynn suggested changing that in his Jul 12 letter to the club.  I do not know when this was done, maybe it wasn't acted on until 1956 or it was further revised at that point.  What I do know is that it is a marvelous green in its present condition.

Mayday,

The back right tee on 17 is very new, completed a few months ago.  A long time member told me he thought it was there previously and returned.  I'm not sure, but it does make it difficult to bend it around the tree line.  It makes you do what Byron Nelson chose to do in 1939 when they weren't hitting it as long as today; that is play for the flat and hit a long iron into a tough green with a lot of trouble right.

I heard areas of Massachusetts got 5 inches of rain in a 1/2 hour!  Glad I passed on the trip---good advise as usual, Bill.  Let's get together Sunday at the tournament, Bill.  I'll try to reach you to arrange or call me when you get back.
 

Chris_Clouser

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2003, 11:47:26 AM »
Wayne,

Was that the tee they were building when we were walking out there?  That does make it a very difficult shot.

wsmorrison

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2003, 04:51:07 PM »
It sure was, Chris.  Takes away a lot of decision making and demands a long shot into a tough green.  I'm not a big fan of that tee.  By the way, have you heard anything of this Marshall Farnham and what he may have done at Philly CC?  We'll need to know that to better understand the architectural history there and Maxwell's contributions.  What greens did you think indicated Maxwell?

Chris_Clouser

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2003, 05:16:24 PM »
Wayne,

No I had never heard of Farnham until that post either.  The description of the two greens sound like some Maxwell stuff though.  I was thinking the 8th was very similar when we saw it to that description above but the 1st was way different.

I think I noted 2, 4, 8, 10 and 15 when we were there.  15 was the only one of those I'm not 100% sure that Maxwell touched.  The others were Maxwell all the way.  Also holes 3, 6, 9 and 12 had some contouring that could have been Maxwell also.  The only holes I didn't think had any Maxwell type contouring in them were 1, 5, 7, 11, 14, 16, 17 and 18. They were much more like the greens at Rolling Green that we saw later that day.   We didn't look at 13 so I can't say on that one.  
« Last Edit: August 08, 2003, 05:19:30 PM by Chris_Clouser »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2003, 02:50:19 PM »
 Did Maxwell or someone also add bunkers in the landing areas?It looks to me like many more than Flynn would have used.
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2003, 03:09:10 PM »
Many of those Philly C.C. greens look a little more like Perry Maxwell to me than they do Flynn but I'm no expert. Again, Mike McNulty who has done lots of historic research thinks they are. Chris, #13 looks more like Maxwell to me than most any of them.

The new tee on #17 is only going to work if the club takes out some heavy lumber right past the bridge. As it is it requires almost a cut shot for big hitters.

TEPaul

Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2003, 03:13:05 PM »
I agree that the bunkering on hole #3 is about as well placed strategically as one could want, particularly on the second shot using the slope past the bunkers if you want to either challenge the left bunker or lace it through the two. Lots of options on that second shot due to that fairway bunkering! I wish I'd seen Michele Wie play that hole because she's got the firepower to challenge that left bunker.

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2003, 10:34:27 AM »
Wayne

Back home in my "library" I looked up Marshall Farnham in Jane Alles 1965 History of the Philadelphia Country Club, and I see that: "The Club now had an outstanding course (Spring Mill), the man considered the best greenkeeper in the country (Marshall Farnham, who was head green keeper from 1923 until very recently and who is responsible for the excellent condition of the Spring Mill course today).

Then I go to October 24, 1969 letter to "Fellow Golfer:" by President Ralph B. Eaton which discussed the No. 1 green.  (formerly #16)  "For several years our No. 1 green has been an increasing problem.  The putting surface is poor and growing worse.  The green will not "hold" many fine, accurate approach shots, which bounce on into the far trap or over the green.  The problem is caused by soil compaction resulting from too much foot traffic on the green.  The green is very narrow and sloped toward the center.  Consequently, there are only four cupping areas which permit the golfer a fair putt, and these are in comstant use.  Poor drainage is a secondary cause of our problem."

I'll show you the sketch of the enlarged green which was ready for play April 15, 1970 as we walk the course today.


Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia CC Top Flynn in GAP?
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2003, 10:40:59 AM »
Wayne

Forgot to say that Warren Bidwell was green superintendent at that time.  So I guess it was Bidwell, not Farnham who changed #1 and #8 greens.